24 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, it'd be fun. E-Wing still remains a worse Jendon (and A-Wings worse TIE/v1), but gains a unique roll in Rebels.

Also, Pattern Analyzer would be WICKED sweet on an E-Wing. Good? Maybe not, but it'd be a blast to play.

At least the Tech slot give options, unlike the sensor slot which is basically just FCS. All four tech pieces has some utility on an E-Wing. Primed Trusters would probably be cost prohibitive like Advanced Sensors is currently, but Pattern Analyzer largely accomplishes PT's role anyway with 5 red maneuvers on the dial.

Like you said: Good? maybe, maybe not. Fun to play? Yup.

20 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

At least the Tech slot give options, unlike the sensor slot which is basically just FCS. All four tech pieces has some utility on an E-Wing. Primed Trusters would probably be cost prohibitive like Advanced Sensors is currently, but Pattern Analyzer largely accomplishes PT's role anyway with 5 red maneuvers on the dial.

Like you said: Good? maybe, maybe not. Fun to play? Yup.

Yep. Any Tech is more exciting than FCS, pretty much.

Meanwhile, Primed Thrusters should have more aggressive price scaling. I'd love to see it be no more than Pattern Analyzer on an Init 1-2-3 at least. Hard to say less, because of SJE, but maybe even then. I think it's priced right at 5 and 6, and I could compromise on 4, but for cheaper ships... a shame...

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

I know this seems like an expensive build at first:

Corran Horn (64) + fire control system (2) + elusive (3) + chopper (2) + stealth device (8) = 79pt
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z21X119W113WW0W166&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Until you realise you are flying a perma-cloacked Phantom with lots of health (3 hull and 3 shields) with the ability to double tap while cloacked at initiative 5... (the trick is that chopper+elusive lets you regain the charge for the stealth device).

Stop complaining about E-wings, and get them on the table.

Chopper inherently hurts you to recover the charge and eats up your action economy, meaning your firing off unmodded attacks and rolling unmodded defenses for a full 3 turns to pull this off without losing shields. Using chopper to regain stealth device is thus a bit of a meme because you need to assume the stealth device will prevent 2 damage each charge to be 'worth it' in addition to the lost action economy. Sure, FCS lets you offensively mod whenever you want (Its sorta staple on Corran for a reason) but without defensive modding those 4 dice you have are worse than 3 focused defense dice: the combo actually hurts the ship's ability to resist damage. If your using elusive to avoid damage rather than fuel chopper then your taking 2 damage to reduce your incoming average damage by .33 on the next incoming attack, its a horrible deal.

On top of this, the TIE Phantom only has 1 less health, so its not 'lots.' In exchange, the phantom is MUCH more defensively powerful, especially with Echo, costs significantly less, can maintain offensive mods, and has super strong actionless reposition. Furthermore, while Corran's ability is flashy, double tapping, even with FCS, isn't actually that useful, especially in bullseye. It is just too inconsistent both setting it up and in result due to how hard it is to properly mod it, and in exchange for getting an extra attack you can't fully mod, you lose an attack you could. So you need to really squeeze value into that double tap and use it to only get a turn of downtime out of the repair, rather than spamming those actions.

I don't think anyone is saying the E-wing is complete trash, it is neaaaaarly there, but this build isn't going to make it good. Chopper-Stealth-Elusive is just... not a thing: Your spending 3 unlinkable actions to try to get 1 green dice back, or are taking more damage than the green dice would get ya. That is a massive amount of potential modded offensive up-time lost, the opportunity cost is too big compared to doing literally anything else with those actions (including just using Chopper to recover shields directly using elusive and skipping the device entirely), forgetting about the fact its overcosted compared to the ship you compared it too.

Quote

Tech Slot

As long as its a hybrid sensor/tech slot it seems good to me. Remember the rebel conversion kit didn't come with tech items at all, and not everyone collects stuff that is (currently) entirely out of faction for Rebels. It would be a pretty big disservice to suddenly remove the ability for people who only play rebels to put ANYTHING in that slot 'officially.' On top of that the FCS, while not the most razzle dazzle upgrade, does allow interesting E-wing builds. It remaining a viable option certainly wouldn't hurt the ship.

24 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

I know this seems like an expensive build at first:

Corran Horn (64) + fire control system (2) + elusive (3) + chopper (2) + stealth device (8) = 79pt
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z21X119W113WW0W166&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Until you realise you are flying a perma-cloacked Phantom with lots of health (3 hull and 3 shields) with the ability to double tap while cloacked at initiative 5... (the trick is that chopper+elusive lets you regain the charge for the stealth device).

Stop complaining about E-wings, and get them on the table.

I recall @RoockieBoy was flying pretty much that. I think it might have been AdvS instead of FCS/Stealth, but paired with Leia-Falcon, so Corran can still get his Focus on a flip move.

46 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I recall @RoockieBoy was flying pretty much that. I think it might have been AdvS instead of FCS/Stealth, but paired with Leia-Falcon, so Corran can still get his Focus on a flip move.

There have been a few moderately successful Copper-Corran lists, basically just using elusive-chopper as a 5 point R2 unit and advanced sensors to get the repair off before a red on disarmed turns. The issue is they seem to only show up in small tournaments or tend to not do great. Still, Chopper may find a good home on the E-wing because of that advanced sensor-elusive combo. Probably won't dethrone Porkins as Chopper's BFF though.

Pre-nerf R2D2 was 'good enough' on Corran to get some work done, but this was also mostly pre-Leia nerf and Cassian nerf as well. If the E-wing got something to make up for that, like being able to run tech upgrades (especially in addition to the sensor, though that seems unlikely), that might be a good... uhh... tech option, in the listbuilding sense and make it more Defender Like but in Rebel theme, if that makes sense.

On 8/18/2020 at 4:41 PM, theBitterFig said:

I recall @RoockieBoy was flying pretty much that. I think it might have been AdvS instead of FCS/Stealth, but paired with Leia-Falcon, so Corran can still get his Focus on a flip move.

That’s right, I had AS instead of FCS/SD.

The Chopper Elusive combo eats too much of your precious actions to be worth it on an expensive pilot like Corran, so you’ll need some support ships. Jake Farrell and Leia help mitigate that. Also AS allows for an action on its own the turn you’re going to do a red move to recharge elusive.
I wouldn’t try to equip and recharge SD, for all those reasons @dezzmont explained above, though I played quite a few games with protorps (back when they were 9p), and I was able to recharge one torp a few games, which was really nice (and scary for my opponent).

On 8/18/2020 at 5:26 PM, dezzmont said:

Pre-nerf R2D2 was 'good enough' on Corran to get some work done, but this was also mostly pre-Leia nerf and Cassian nerf as well. If the E-wing got something to make up for that, like being able to run tech upgrades (especially in addition to the sensor, though that seems unlikely), that might be a good... uhh... tech option, in the listbuilding sense and make it more Defender Like but in Rebel theme, if that makes sense.

Agree. I played some league games with the Chopper Elusive Corran, and did quite well, but never took him to a tournament as I didn’t think it would be good enough. Really fun list, but not good enough... so I went with the Crackshot/FCS/R2/Spare parts build and that was when the good results started to come.

On 8/18/2020 at 5:26 PM, dezzmont said:

There have been a few moderately successful Copper-Corran lists, basically just using elusive-chopper as a 5 point R2 unit and advanced sensors to get the repair off before a red on disarmed turns. The issue is they seem to only show up in small tournaments or tend to not do great. Still, Chopper may find a good home on the E-wing because of that advanced sensor-elusive combo. Probably won't dethrone Porkins as Chopper's BFF though.

As someone who brought Expertise Corran to Regionals in 1.0 (went 4-2 and missed the cut by 20p of MOV), I wouldn’t mind trying the Chopper Corran in a more competitive context

Knaves and Rogues with R3 and FCS are quite good at 54 and 56 points. That's old-school Predator against 2 enemy ships that you can even burn for a full on Lock effect (twice), and for less relative points than Predator cost in 1.0.

You can get 2 Rogues w/ Proton Torps, R3 and FCS and Luke in the same list. If you downgrade to Knaves you can get R5 on Luke for some regen.

I think you guys are just too focused on Corran and Gavin.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Knaves and Rogues with R3 and FCS are quite good at 54 and 56 points. That's old-school Predator against 2 enemy ships that you can even burn for a full on Lock effect (twice), and for less relative points than Predator cost in 1.0.

You can get 2 Rogues w/ Proton Torps, R3 and FCS and Luke in the same list. If you downgrade to Knaves you can get R5 on Luke for some regen.

I think you guys are just too focused on Corran and Gavin.

A LOT of discussion is about how Knaves and Rogues are 'almost good enough.' It seems generally understood that Corran and especially Gavin are not near where they need to be, though they can sometimes do work in specific situations: There is a reason that the Rogue Squadron Escort saw more experimentation than Corran and Gavin combined this update.

The issue with the generics is that its rough to pay 14 points for the FCS and R3 when that on 2 E-wings puts you at a place where you could probably add a full extra ship or upgrade a pilot somewhere else.

Heck, it is questionable if it is worth it compared to an X-wing with proton torps. FCS only pushes .2 damage unfocused and .6 damage focused, while a proton torp pushes .8. Obviously there is some defensive benefit from the green dice and the dial is better but rebels are in a weird spot where they really need to wring as much efficiency in terms of firepower and total health to win. Dropping an entire ship for an extra .6 damage on offense with almost no defensive benefit, or .2 damage if your willing to commit to getting green value and giving up a big advantage of rebels in being 'allowed' to casually take damage with their chunky ships and shields, probably isn't worth losing an entire extra ship that brings a full extra 3 dice to every round of shooting, which is what the difference between 40 points and 54 points is forcing you to do in most scenarios.

It isn't terrible, its so close (The E-wing if it spends defensively using the FCS as a 'half in' offensive mod splitting the difference between focused and unfocused, lives an entire extra turn against Boba, which is significant) but it just... isn't entirely there because the 5X is just better because your losing less firepower to arcdodges and initiative kills, and have more of it to begin with. And 5X isn't that great, its a decidedly mediocre list that didn't end up going very far due to how the other faction superships and crazy swarms just bully unmodded or single modded shots. It isn't even really an E-wing problem, the rebel faction as a whole has this weird thing with its identity and its hard for its ships to justify themselves outside of wacky abilities or just being a super efficient statline, in part due to the nerfs of almost all the upgrades rebels could use to capitalize on specific ships, and in part due to rebels having very few pilots per-ship.

And, again, it isn't bad that the generic E-wing with some no brainer brawling focused mods isn't comparing great to a generic X-wing to spam with. Like I said earlier, spam lists aren't that interesting because its hard for more than one to actually be good, especially when the ships do similar stuff it is pretty inevitable. But I would probably not ever slot in an E-wing kitted out as list tech compared to a naked X-wing or a torp X-wing either, which is a problem in of itself: The E-wing shouldn't just be a ship you spam (especially lore wise, it was generally part of mixed wings), but that means it needs some neat tricks to pull to justify itself or it needs lists that want the unique things it offers over an X-wing that can't be replaced with just points spent on offensive upgrades or better ships elsewhere, and that doesn't exist right now.

The Ewing really needs the 1st ed R7 generic. Spending a lock defensively would give it a defensive option few others have.

e wing to me:

3 green dices are good

3 red dices are good

3 hulls +3 shields are good

dial is very good

ugrade slots are good

actions are good

ability is good

maybe, maybe, maybe is only a problem of proper cost (but i'm not convinced)

maybe those 3 green dices only make the ship cost more than an x wing without a shure benefit... but this is valid also for all the other 3 green dices ships

1 hour ago, Manolox said:

maybe those 3 green dices only make the ship cost more than an x wing without a shure benefit... but this is valid also for all the other 3 green dices ships

Other 3 greens tend to have a more surefire upside either due to being able to double-repo, repo-defensive mod, act with swarm buffs as dirt cheap pieces, or otherwise mitigate the high variance of 3 green. The more expensive the ship, the more 'true' this has to be I think because ship cost isn't just about how many ships your not taking, but also creating score openings for your opponent.

Guri is amazing because she has some of the strongest reposition in the game and can in flown correctly always hold onto mods, but no one plays Prince Xizor despite being a full 10 points cheaper, for example: it just isn't worth dropping an entire ship to make a Starviper slightly more durable, you need to get a LOT to justify dropping a ship.

If your willing to drop an entire ship you can't just be getting high variance durability that, statistically, doesn't change how much incoming damage your taking on average anyway. Your taking .6 damage less per single attack per turn, and then .4 after, which isn't nothing but it isn't worth dropping 6 health and 3 red dice and an arc from your list, especially because the E-wing actually loses more proportional firepower quicker from the list when attacked anyway: It may take 2 more turns to lose an E-wing to a single 3 dice focused attack a turn, 5 vs the 3 the X-wing would take, but that is only 2 out of 5 turns where the E-wing list even matches the X-wing list offensively, and it never overtakes.

This is why I am super skeptical of anyone arguing the E-wing should just joust and it doesn't need to get value out of its dial, it clearly won't ever be 'worth it' as just a beef piece so you obviously have to value its reposition and dial at least somewhat, and conversely you have to value its ability to brawl somewhat to justify it over a pair of A-wings. The problem is Rebels right now just are 100% about beefy jousters without a lot of nuance and lists that 'want to get them a ship that can do both' aren't great right now. They hypothetically could exist (I had a lot of success running Rogue Squadron Escort alongside a kitchen sink list with a U-Y-and A, for example, with lots of mod passing), but those lists tend to be a bit overpriced because the rebels pay a lot in a '4 initiative tax' that isn't super helpful compared to just sitting at I2.

Again, its almost there, it could just be as simple as 'defensive lock' though I think that may not make the ship feel very unique as a supership. It just needs something more, like some form of lock utility, a cheap torp so your not dumping more points into this thing, or a more nimble rebel list that may want this to be its heavy hitter, or a more immobile rebel list that needs someone who can turn. I don't think its necessarily a points issue because if you just reduce it till it can be an efficient brawl piece you invalidate the X-wing as a brawl piece most likely. It is more than the wingmen it wants to help aren't great right now, and the unique tools it has aren't valuable in the current system.

That or we are all just sleeping on Ion torps.

3x Rogue (R3) + Arvel (Intimidation, Marksmanship) just went 5-1, made the cut at the big GSP/Corellia event yesterday.

33 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

That or we are all just sleeping on Ion torps.

Might be. In some ways, they seem almost like inconsistent Homing Missiles, but landing an Ion token successfully on an ace might just be GG. Granted, landing 2 hits on an ace with a regular torpedo would be better, but Ions just cost a lot less.

On 8/21/2020 at 1:34 PM, dezzmont said:

A LOT of discussion is about how Knaves and Rogues are 'almost good enough.' It seems generally understood that Corran and especially Gavin are not near where they need to be, though they can sometimes do work in specific situations: There is a reason that the Rogue Squadron Escort saw more experimentation than Corran and Gavin combined this update.

The issue with the generics is that its rough to pay 14 points for the FCS and R3 when that on 2 E-wings puts you at a place where you could probably add a full extra ship or upgrade a pilot somewhere else.

14 points isn't really close to the cheapest ship in Rebels though, you'd have to probably cut 2 other 4+ point upgrades from your list before you could add another ship that probably has no synergy with the list, so that's a weird argument.

IDK, maybe they're still overcosted, yes their action bar is terrible with their ship ability, but I just know that they were okay before the July points update and now they're better, so I wouldn't count them out yet, maybe a good player will pick them up this season and headline an event and then they start to pick up.

I'm sure a lot of people weren't predicting that a big tournament was going to be won by a Nantex swarm. Can't really call the time of death on a meta that's only a month old.

At least the E-Wing is still getting gradual updates each points adjustment. RIP generic RZ-1 A-Wing. FFG just straight up hates that ship it seems.

19 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

14 points isn't really close to the cheapest ship in Rebels though, you'd have to probably cut 2 other 4+ point upgrades from your list before you could add another ship that probably has no synergy with the list, so that's a weird argument.

14 points is more than enough to generally hit a breakpoint with other cuts, unless you get into really specific list combosm which was the point I was making. In the reality you can fit in an E-wing but can't cut down to a full bonus ship, they might make sense.

The value of upgrades on an E-wing is almost always going to be lower than an extra 3 red dice and more health from a jousting perspective, was the main point I was making.

19 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

At least the E-Wing is still getting gradual updates each points adjustment. RIP generic RZ-1 A-Wing. FFG just straight up hates that ship it seems.

Yeah its... really frustrating? I can understand not jumping at the chance to make E-wings competitive but the design space they chose to push the A-wing doesn't feel good for what they are, and the just... abandonment of the chasis really sticks in my craw.

Gavin I'm growing mixed on... Nine points feels like a lot to spend in excess of a Rogue, but just playing around in Fly Casual, that crit ability starts to add up fast. I'd love for him to come down a few--five points over a Rogue maybe?--but I kind of get it. I went in to playing around with it pretty unenthusiastic, but it kinda surprised me that, say, Gavin/Rogue/Rogue with Plasma Torps felt maybe better than 3 Rogue with 2 Protons/1 Plasma.

I don't want to draw real conclusions from FlyCasual, but the fact that it felt close and not just utter trash made me think maybe there's something to it. I dunno. Still a lot to spend.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

At least the E-Wing is still getting gradual updates each points adjustment. RIP generic RZ-1 A-Wing. FFG just straight up hates that ship it seems.

A-Wing and E-Wing are kinda on different trajectories. A-Wing generics are really pathetic and massively outclassed by every similar ship, but Jake and Arvel are pretty good.

Generic E-Wings are kinda playable. Rogues in particular seem reasonable in mixed squads, if someone is bored of playing named B-Wings. Not as strong, but good enough to not hate your afternoon, probably. However, E-Wing Aces feel kinda bad. Corran still more expensive than Luke is a little depressing, plus paying heavily for the regen sins of 7B Jedi. Gavin, for all my "maybe not so trash" musings, still is quite expensive compared to a Rogue.

Well, better trash E-Wing aces and good A-Wing aces than the other way around.

I played several games last year with Gavin instead of Corran when prepping for the System Open season. I won a few games thanks to those crits, but the I4 made it much harder against all those I5s that seemed to show up all the time... If Gavin comes down a few points maybe he’ll start to shine

Gavin's crits have had a major effect on every game that I've played with or against him. He's always felt worth his points. With that said dropping 1 or 2 points wouldn't be out of consideration.

I just came back from my FLGS. We played in a 10 player tournament and I went 3-0. Got second place because another player went 3-0 with better mov. Corran didn’t die in any game, and I was able to regen 3 shields on the first game, 0 on the second, and 1 on the third one. I took several pics so I’ll make a batrep tomorrow.

24 minutes ago, RoockieBoy said:

I just came back from my FLGS. We played in a 10 player tournament and I went 3-0. Got second place because another player went 3-0 with better mov. Corran didn’t die in any game, and I was able to regen 3 shields on the first game, 0 on the second, and 1 on the third one. I took several pics so I’ll make a batrep tomorrow.

Corran/Leia/Jake?

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Corran/Leia/Jake?

Yeap, with the non-top-Chopper-elusive-combo. Here’s a pic of a cool turn where I pulled a neat trick with Corran where I evaded with AS, hard turned right avoiding 2 enemy arcs, and got a focus thanks to Leia. The plan was to face Soontir head to head, but he boosted over and left me with no shot. A pity...

On 9/5/2020 at 7:04 PM, theBitterFig said:

Corran/Leia/Jake?

Care to share the full list?

What we see in the picture is:

• Corran with Elusive, Chopper, and Advanced Sensors
• Leia Organa with Sense and Millennium Falcon
• Jake just jake.

There's a neat synergy here, with Corran able to AdvS Chopper to regen a shield, pull the red, get a Focus from Leia. I feel like I wouldn't be impressed by just Chopper Elusive on Corran, but with specifically AdvS and Leia, maybe it's really costly, but it's kinda neat.

I'm sure @RoockieBoy will have more detail in a BatRep soon.