Partly inspired by and with an idea or two borrowed from the MidWest Scrubs' (pre-points) article on the E-Wing Fix, I have my own crack at it from a post-points standpoint.
It still looks silly, and it still lacks pizzazz, but does it really need fixing?
Edited by Stryker359The more I think about it, I just really don't want the E-Wing to get linked green tokens. I like that it's this strange, rickety lock-machine. What do we really gain if the E-Wing just becomes a Rebel Starviper, or Rebel Silencer? I just don't think it'd be worth it, and it'd lean into every faction essentially feeling the same. I love Silencers, but linking focus or even evade or calculate just doesn't excite me in any way.
I know I shouldn't, but I like the E-Wing. It's just not good. But most of the suggestions to make it good, turn it into something... that I don't really like anymore.
36 minutes ago, Stryker359 said:Partly inspired by and with an idea or two borrowed from the MidWest Scrubs' (pre-points) article on the E-Wing Fix, I have my own crack at it from a post-points standpoint.
It still looks silly, and it still lacks pizzazz, but does it really need fixing?
Thanks for the shout out to the Midwest Scrub article!
49 minutes ago, Stryker359 said:Partly inspired by and with an idea or two borrowed from the MidWest Scrubs' (pre-points) article on the E-Wing Fix, I have my own crack at it from a post-points standpoint.
It still looks silly, and it still lacks pizzazz, but does it really need fixing?
As of your first "In Defense of the E-Wing" article's posting date (Nov, 8 2018) Rogue Squadron Escorts were 63 points.
The ship is close, and I have seen some success running it in a 'kitchen sink' list where you run a bunch of synergy pilots like Jake or Dutch trying to Joust, and having the E-wing break off to chase people after jousting with them, but those 'rebel teamwork' lists just are overpriced at the moment. If your just gunna use it to joust, its overpriced because it is paying a bit to be able to knife fight and use a pretty good dial. If your just using it to knife fight, your REALLY overpaying for its jousting abilities.
It may be more that rebels need more reason to run an odd mix where the E-wing can create value with its versatility rather than the E-wing needing to come down, like when you run AEXY having the E wing and A wing zoom off to harass some crew carrier is great, but rebel lists really are more about firing lines or running some super fat super-ship right now, when they see any play at all (Can I just say how sad it is that the rebels didn't get any major points shakeup? In the previous points update they only ended up with one list in the top 20, at 16 on the 5X, and that isn't at all in line with the 'fantasy' of rebels. The faction needs a serious adjustment to its pricing philosophy overall which might help a LOT of ships other than the E-wing, but I digress...).
I agree they probably shouldn't just get more greens. In fact, the thing I like the least about X-wing is how ever ship and their grandma is drowning in green tokens and there aren't enough specialized effects that aren't some variant of 'get mods free now for yourself and boost your individual action economy!' I am a much bigger fan of specific strong boosts over general passive ones, its part of why rebel lists that heavily feature characters like Dutch or Garvin are my faves. I would rather them get a sensor option that offers a new very large reward for taking lots of target locks they don't 'need' that isn't effectively giving the E-wing a new green token, like something to reward 'friendly target locks' or something that rewards other people for firing on your locks (in a way that is more interesting than synchronizer and which doesn't require a ton of outside support). That would help make the linked actions less nonsensical (especially when combined with the chasis ability actively punishing trying to lock while repositioning up close) and help capitalize on the versatility of how the ship can engage and target lock.
boost to linked focus with the ability to get target locks from beyond range 3 is absurdly powerful. No thanks.
Edited by migueljI still miss the E-wing being a straight superiority fighter. As someone who never uses ordinance and uses my actions defensively, the 2E version doesnt appeal much to me.
I'd like to see an Ewing only upgrade that simply takes away the weird lock gimmick and lowers the price a few points, maybe filling the torp or sensor slot to prevent upgrade shenanagins.
Barring that something like the Defenders free evade could be cool.
Try out E-wings with Esege "Super Force" Tuketu. He basically gives you everything you want the E-wings to be able to do, and it is completely legal already...trust me, E-wings are bonkers. Drop the Rogue to a Knave if you want a 4 point bid.
Esege Tuketu (44)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 5
Corran Horn (64)
Predator (2)
R2-D2 (10)
Ship total: 76 Half Points: 38 Threshold: 3
Rogue Squadron Escort (51)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R3 Astromech (3)
Ship total: 67 Half Points: 34 Threshold: 3
Total: 198
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z18XWWWW54WWW104Y21X127WWW3WY23XWW136W4W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=
This is what I've been toying with, both E's enter ths fight with TL+focus+Evade and a cheap blocker to maybe deny tokens.
Rogue Squadron Escort (51)
Fire-Control System (2)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R3 Astromech (3)
Ship total: 69 Half Points: 35 Threshold: 3
Rogue Squadron Escort (51)
Fire-Control System (2)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R3 Astromech (3)
Ship total: 69 Half Points: 35 Threshold: 3
Jake Farrell (36)
Predator (2)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2
Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2
Total: 198
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z23XW113W136W4WY23XW113W136W4WY50X127WWY57XW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=
I also don’t care for the torpedo-caddy builds. I would give it a soft focus-like effect. A slight boost to damage and survival would move most of them to a sweet spot without making their initial volley much more powerful.
Does the E-Wing really rely on torps? I thought R3/FCS was a pretty solid combo combined with their long-range scanners. Always-on rerolls seems really good, especially with multiple lock options.
28 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:I also don’t care for the torpedo-caddy builds. I would give it a soft focus-like effect. A slight boost to damage and survival would move most of them to a sweet spot without making their initial volley much more powerful.
Torpedo Caddy seem to me the worst of the builds for an E-Wing. R3 and FCS seem to be the best build. Keep them light so you can get more out of other ships in your list.
49 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:Does the E-Wing really rely on torps? I thought R3/FCS was a pretty solid combo combined with their long-range scanners. Always-on rerolls seems really good, especially with multiple lock options.
Once you have R3 and FCS, you're up past 50 points. Maybe that's an E-Wing or two in a mixed build, but if you're doing all E-Wings... kinda makes sense to add Torpedoes to R3 + FCS.
12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:if you're doing all E-Wings
But spam lists aren't good and shouldn't be. Doing all E-Wings seems like doing all TIE Defenders or all ARCs; just a bad idea that has little to do with the viability of the ship...
Splashing one or two E-Wings in seems cool now though.
Rogue Squadron Escort (51)
Fire-Control System (2)
R3 Astromech (3)
Rogue Squadron Escort (51)
Fire-Control System (2)
R3 Astromech (3)
Han Solo (79)
Engine Upgrade (7)
Total: 198
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z23XW113WW4WY23XW113WW4WY42XWWWWW107WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=
I don't know, maybe this is the start of something?
Edited by ClassicalMoser41 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:But spam lists aren't good and shouldn't be.
And why the **** not?
14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:And why the **** not?
I've made the point several times before; flying a spam lists means that you're doubling down on the strengths of a list, but also doubling down on its weaknesses. This opens you up very deeply to hard-counters. If it doesn't have enough weaknesses to exploit when spammed you have a NPE problem.
Examples:
• If you fly all-I3, a list with several I4s will have a field day.
• If you fly all B-Wings, you'll get eaten alive by 2-primaries and faster ships
• If you fly all droids, you can't take a tactical relay
• If you fly all TIE/lns without an ace or Sloane, it's like an anvil without a hammer or vice versa
• All-Jedi lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-TIE/v1 lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-TIE/ph lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Nantex lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Y-Wing lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Quadjumper lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Upsilon lists have been strong and they were NPE
Most spam lists have never been good. That's a good thing. Rock/Paper/Scissors isn't the game we want to play here, especially if Scissors beats rock or rock beats paper. A very few spam lists have been good historically, and it was always because they were underpriced or overpowered.
Of course there are exceptions but they are few and there are reasons:
• The RZ-2 spam lists are arguably good. The jury is still out on whether it is viable and/or NPE, but they have a lot of pilot options which makes it more diverse and less spammy. Generally speaking though, a more mixed list will do better competitively.
• The T-65 spam lists are mostly not good but have been okay-ish before and may be again. They haven't been NPE because the X-Wing is a pretty generalist ship with no extreme strengths or weaknesses. Again though, the more viable lists have been flown with very diverse pilots.
I can't think of any other spam lists that have been good and haven't caused problems to play against.
Edited by ClassicalMoserAs a design goal "Spam lists should be bad" is a really poor design goal. If we're saying "spam lists will often have some major weaknesses" as a description, well, that's often true. There's also a lot of times when it's not true, because many spam lists are just standard efficient lists, and will work better than random cute jank.
And while there's necessarily at least a bit of a skew to a spam list, there's plenty of non-spam lists that skew harder. Heck, that's pretty much any triple ace list. Most of those double-down on strengths and open up weaknesses, or at least would if Aces paid their taxes.
On top of that, it really misses that lots of folks really love to just fly one chassis. It simplifies decision making, allowing more thought to be put into position and tactics. It "feels right" in a thematic sense usually. Seeing E-Wings as torpedo chassis because there's no better way to build something like 3 Es is a really natural expression of how people play. If you're point is that Trim E-Wings can be great, hrm, not filler, but muscle, well, that's totally fair. But saying it directly makes the point more effectively.
It also will depend a lot on our definition of good and bad, I don't necessarily want spam to be winning major events, but having a positive record seems totally reasonable. If I'm listing tiers of goodness in X-Wing: Casual Night Bad. Casual Night Good. Small Kit Good. Positive Record In Large Tournaments But Won't Make The Cut Good. Lose Large Tournaments After The Cut Good. Win Large Tournaments Good.
Reasonable spam lists should probably be in the Yellow/Green. Maybe doesn't make the cut, but you'll have a fun afternoon.
54 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:• If you fly all droids, you can't take a tactical relay
• If you fly all TIE/lns without an ace or Sloane, it's like an anvil without a hammer or vice versa
I'd argue that 6 Vulture 2 Hyena *ARE* spam lists, at least in any way that matters.
Plus, Inferno Swarm was a thing, and totally fine. Classic TIE Swarm is a list that goes back to the origins of X-Wing, and probably should always exist, and is almost always better than TIEs + Ace.
54 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:• All-Jedi lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-TIE/v1 lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-TIE/ph lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Nantex lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Y-Wing lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Quadjumper lists have been strong and they were NPE
• All-Upsilon lists have been strong and they were NPE
SPAM IS NOT A PROBLEM. Maybe it's an indicator of some problem (Juke, Ensnare, VTG, &c), but that's a different thing entirely than saying "Spam lists are bad and should be bad."
Edited by theBitterFig34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Maybe it's an indicator of some problem (Juke, Ensnare, VTG, &c)
This is kind of my point. If there's something underpriced, the response will be to get as much of it as possible in a list, leading to spam being competitively strong (as was the case with Sigma Jukes, VTG Y-Wings, Ensnare Nantexes, Cluster Inquisitors, etc. They don't have any significant weaknesses so you can fill a list with them and not suffer any drawbacks.
38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:I'd argue that 6 Vulture 2 Hyena *ARE* spam lists, at least in any way that matters.
I guess I agree. I think maybe dividing this point well requires a nuanced approach.
I originally took a very hardline stance on this point regarding breakpoint-based pricing back when 6x Interceptors/Strikers/etc was priced out. The point at the time was: Don't price them for the spam list because the spam list is never the ideal list. Something else will be better, even if it's just one ship out of the group. 8 Vultures will never be as good as 7 vultures and a Relay carrier. 8 TIEs will never be as good as 7 + Howl or 6 + Sloane. 8 Scyks will never be as good as a mix of different cannons and/or Tractor Serissu. FOcho is good but not as good as Kylo and Friends. 5X is good but not really competitive, even in hyperspace.
I think multiple ships, even a bunch of the same generic, should be okay and allowed to be okay. But I think a list that's just made out of copypasta generally isn't good and theoretically shouldn't be good most of the time. If all-one-ship is good that ship is probably too strong.
Diversity of pilots can make up for diversity of chassis in many cases such as the TIE/ln, RZ-2, or T-65. A single support ship does mean it's not spam per se in this framework (I do realize that invalidates my examples of Drealoks, TIE/v1 and Quadjumpers; those were bad examples). Generally I think "Count to 200 by (##)" is bad list building and yields suboptimal results.
And now that we come full circle, as regards the E-Wing, There's really only one named pilot and two generics (Gavin is pretty much a Rogue with an overpriced Marksmanship). I guess there's a bit of diversity in how you can build them, but for as much list space as they take up, I really don't expect that an all-E-Wing list will ever be competitive, even if the E-Wing itself were very competitive.
I realize it's not an exact analogue to the Defender, but the reasoning is a little similar; TIE Defender lists are all about what else is in the list, not just what you do with the Defender itself. 2-Defender lists are just bad. 3-Defender lists would be horrifically oppressive. I think they're priced very well right now and could be very competitive in the right lists. And I think we should think about the E-Wing in a similar light; don't judge it based on the potential merits of an all-E-Wing list, but based on what you have available to build around or squeeze into another list. That was basically the point of my original reply.
3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:I'd argue that 6 Vulture 2 Hyena *ARE* spam lists, at least in any way that matters.
Yes and no. Yes, in that any list that has 8 ships is going to be spam of some sort just by the nature of needing to fit 8 ships into a list. No, in that the list has two rocks to fight off the scissors that are coming for the six pieces of paper.
3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:SPAM IS NOT A PROBLEM. Maybe it's an indicator of some problem (Juke, Ensnare, VTG, &c), but that's a different thing entirely than saying "Spam lists are bad and should be bad."
Here is where you hit the nail on the head. It's why 5X is generally seem as wholesome. Spam lists tend to expose something else that is wrong with the system. I tend not to care for spam lists, as they are fairly dull (FOcho is buh-oring).
I think the next thing that a spam list will expose will be that having 6 I4 ships that cannot be blocked to prevent lining up their 6 copies of Crack Shot will be bad for the game.
Edited by 5050SaintThere are a few issues with spam as a viable strategy that tend to make it bad design:
It indicates specific items are so strong that more nuanced synergies can't compete, which is bad because it means that singular choice has so much raw power that you can just huck it alone and be done.
It also heavily diminishes the creativity and personalization aspect of wargaming. You can't make something unique to you or explore some mechanical interaction that speaks to you if you need to run a blob of generics.
Both of these combine to make a big problem because it sorta... removes all the fun of wargaming? Like when 40k was just 'spam your basic troop choices with 1 special gun, split the squads if your marines, and take a transport' the game... wasn't good. All armies felt very samey. In 40k the power difference of different units is way smaller than the power difference between X-wing ships, so it wasn't a disaster, but it certainly wasn't a fun time, especially because... you know... people like special units: Landraiders and Dreadnaughts and Hammerheads and Carnifexes. Likewise, people like Garvein or Corran or Dash or Dutch: They all do weird interesting things that clearly could synergize with a lot of different choices to make lists go a lot of different ways. I think X-wing would be a better game if generics were used to round out lists and it would be foolish to run just pure generic spam, but that would require a change to points philosophy, and I would just settle for you being encouraged to not use them. It could even be normalized to always have SOME generics in your list (in fact some archetypes may be more healthy being forced to replace something with a generic due to how concentrating initiative at 5 and 6 is exposing serious weaknesses in the initiative and bid system that aren't at all fun), but the idea of running pure generic should be akin to trying to play a green deck with nothing but generic creatures in MTG: You should PROBABLY fail because otherwise that sorta low key invalidates the entire concept of having diverse powers with complex interactions.
This is why I don't think 5x is that wholesome. It isn't that it is degenerate, but it shows that named pilots in the mid tier are in a bad spot because they are struggling to get enough value for their price compared to just slapping another ship into the list and calling it a day. It is... comically out of flavor for Rebels to be about a bunch of generics in the same ship, even if it is as iconic as the X-wing. It is fine if spam lists exist and are viable, but they really shouldn't be 'balanced around' so to speak: The game shouldn't only not care if a more thought out and complicated list makes a generic spam list totally obsolete, but it should actively be worried if too much generic spam is in the meta because it likely means things with abilities are severely undertuned,.
One of the reasons I like the E-wing a lot is precisely because its bad spammed as a generic, but has a lot of diversity in how its built and what it can do in a list. Sorta the inverse of why I love Dutch. Dutch is almost always built the same way on my lists (proton torp and nothing else) but he enables so many other ships to exist and gain value in new ways, so the fact Dutch is a staple in my lists doesn't mean my lists aren't diverse. Likewise, I like the E-wing because it has so many upgrade slots and a broad array of powerful tools that it can accomplish a lot of different things, but with the bonus that it is able to switch roles mid fight.
I think that is why I think an ideal 'E-wing buff' is more rebel named pilots coming down, and perhaps a few upgrades going down as well. The 'generic' E-wing is sorta a 'build your own pilot' rather than a real generic, which is really something I want out of X-wing more often. A E-wing with a FCS and an R-3 does soemthing very different than a E-wing with an APT and an R-4. The named pilots could certainly stand to get a reduction, but I am fine with the ship lacking the ability to repo and get greens or being able to be spammed as long as it has interesting useful options and isn't so overpriced I feel like a big dumb idiot for trying to make it work.
Edited by dezzmontYay... Thematic, and logistically sound, squadrons ( A.K. ******* A. 5+ ships of the same ******* type should be viable (viable doesn't mean only or "best" option fyi, just a reasonably - equally good option)) players are having to argue against "Yu'gi'o/MTG/list Tetris TMG" style "c0mBo5 oNly anD **** y0ur 5quAdr0n5" diehards...
Edited by Hiemfire38 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:Thematic
I can think of nothing less thematic than rebels flying a uniform fleet of ships, because they very much didn't do that.
38 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:logistically
So like... Star Wars (And a lot of scifi space battles) are heavily based on WW2 era ship warfare, and one of the most defining features of said warfare, and especially the role of fightercraft, was that differen ships and vessels had different mission profiles. It was actually not at all normal to just have a bunch of planes of the same time go at it, because that isn't actually how ship combat works: You had stuff like torpedo bombers trying to sink ships while covered or halted by fighter-craft. Like I know that it was intended to be a clever plot point in Alphabet squad where characters went 'mixed rebel squads are dumb lets hang the lampshade' but in reality mixed mission profiles are absolutely the standard and expected.
38 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:players are having to argue against "Yu'gi'o/MTG/list Tetris TMG"style "c0mBo5 oNly anD **** y0ur 5quAdr0n5" diehards...
Typing in funny text isn't an argument.
Mono-lists are a problem in most wargames too. It basically killed Warmahordes because pretty much every faction had one troop choice that you spammed out for your list rather than running the cool giant robots or monsters and the wizards who used them. You remember trencher lists? I remember trencher lists.
It also seriously hurt 40k, back when 'all troops all the time' metas were a thing as well. This was such a big issue the entire way armies were created were changed specifically so you wouldn't need ANY troops ever again, and could make a troopless army, which was totally alien to the game line, both by changing how objectives worked (troops were just better at securing them, not mandatory) and how army creation worked (You now could, in most tournaments, pick 3 different arrays of mandatory and optional unit choices that emphasized different types of units, and the one that mandated troops just gave you more points to buy 'large scale' strategies, which as a bonus made troops less generic). Most people I have talked to agree the end of the troopening didn't make troops unplayable or worse, it just let people who liked other things... play those other things, because even most people who were fans of troops wanted to do other stuff with em.
It turns out like... the vast majority of people collecting armies and minis want to use their diverse collection in interesting ways, rather than farting out a bunch of the same ship without any upgrade cards or special pilots and calling it a day. On top of that, Star Wars is a pre-existing fictional universe and its super weird and dumb the protagonist faction's protagonists see zero play in comparison to Blue Squad spam, akin to how it was weird that none of the iconic specialized units and characters of the forces of 40k, or the Warjacks of Warmachine were super terrible because they reduced the amount of GENERIC TROOPS you could hurl at problems and required resources from warcasters that were better spent just tossing out more attacks and dice.
There is a difference between simple, straightforward, or easily understood lists that have clear goals, and spammed generics. Not every list needs to be a wacky combo list, but generic spam really shouldn't be holding up any factions, both because that is very 'brittle' in terms of balance as a minor points change can destroy the value of a collection, and because only one spam list can be 'the best' of a given time, because the fundamental goal of a spam list is to just shove efficient stats in your opponent's face.
This is why spam lists aren't good in the current meta... droid lists are good in the current meta. The preformance gap between droids and the next best 'spam' list of 6A is huge. In the last 8months 150 tournament droid spam lists were played in the top 20 lists, while the A-wing spam was only 70. The A-wing list rarely placed top, and while its preformance rate was higher than the droids, that comes down to the high play rate of droids (Which both means the droids are doing worse on average because more people of varying skill levels are playing them, and because they are 'cannibalizing' each other): The A-wing list generally would get 8th place in a tournament while droids would make first or second in almost every tournament listed on metawing.
This is why spam lists shouldn't be generally lists you want to be on the high end balance wise: In almost any game design, only one 'take all the generic stuff' list/deck/whatever can work, because it de-emphasizes the specific strengths and weaknesses of different strategies and just devolves it to 'who's math is better?' Right now, its super clearly the droids. Later, maybe something else. But its always going to be one (maybe two, if the lists do VERY different things from each other, like if one can 'ace' on the most statistically efficient generic list) lists doing this. So, at the very least, for most ships in the game, you need to accept generic spam is not going to be good, because its an inevitability of how generic spam works.
Droids currently have the best statistical face off, and therefore get to be our current generic list, so arguing generic spam E-wings should be good means your saying it needs to statistically surpass droids (or, in this case, the A-wing list, which is the 'spam ace on the best spam list' list) which... obviously will never happen.
Instead, for most ships, generics need to be pieces in a greater puzzle of some sort. It doesn't mean they gotta go away, but it is just... unrealistic to assume a ship HAS to be usable as a spam ship. The E-wing... very clearly should never be a viable spam ship because its paying for a lot of features that would almost certainly make some other ship better, even a spam ship that wants to be a mini-ace, so it should fit into the rebel puzzle in some other way.
Edited by dezzmontJust give E wings a tech slot so they can get targeting synchronizer.
That way they can lock super early, and help ships like A wings fire off their missiles.
52 minutes ago, Roller of blanks said:Just give E wings a tech slot so they can get targeting synchronizer.
That way they can lock super early, and help ships like A wings fire off their missiles.
I mean, it'd be fun. E-Wing still remains a worse Jendon (and A-Wings worse TIE/v1), but gains a unique roll in Rebels.
Also, Pattern Analyzer would be WICKED sweet on an E-Wing. Good? Maybe not, but it'd be a blast to play.
I know this seems like an expensive build at first:
Corran Horn (64) + fire control system (2) + elusive (3) + chopper (2) + stealth device (8) = 79pt
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z21X119W113WW0W166&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=
Until you realise you are flying a perma-cloacked Phantom with lots of health (3 hull and 3 shields) with the ability to double tap while cloacked at initiative 5... (the trick is that chopper+elusive lets you regain the charge for the stealth device).
Stop complaining about E-wings, and get them on the table.