5 hours ago, SailorMeni said:Th ematically I'd argue that 3PO should be playable alone as well. But he usually does little to nothing on his own and needs rescuing most of the time ...
It would be an interesting design to add him to the army just for him to act as an modified hostage objective in addition to whatever Battle Cards are selected.
8 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:I don't get this. I thought the goal is to try to have a balanced game, not just change what the overpowered unit dominating the game is.
Sorry was not really clear that this was a joke by myself and by FFG lol. Will edit it.
The airspeeder I look at as every mistake that Legion has done since the start of the game. So when points come up I always think of that paperweight first. With FFG throwing it in our face with how good they are at fixing broken parts of the game!!! And go buy 3 airspeeders now!!!
Is it power creep though?
If vehicles were way underpowered before, and they wanted the new ones to be good when released, it's hard to call that power creep vs. just getting it right this time.
If anything this game is guilty of "complexity creep", as in they keep adding new keywords ability, which is fun, but sucks for older units and heroes that don't have that printed on their stupid physical cards that can't be updated easily.
its not power creep. the clone tank for example isnt power creep. its just the level that ALL vehicles should be at.
the main issue with the older vehicles is they dont have protection from crits like the clone tank does.
the airspeeder and landspeeder should both have outmaneuver for example, both are more maneuverable than the clone tank. instead they get the crappy cover rule which is useless because it doesnt negate crits. The cover keyword also doesnt work well with armor because armor already ignores regular hits so the cover keyword when combined with armor only helps vs impact attacks.
the imperial vehicles are okay ruleswise and probably just need point reductions. but the rebel vehicles cant be fixed by just lowering their points. although I could see an argument for adding outmaneuver to speeder bikes instead of cover 1. if clone tanks can dodge crits certainly speeder bikes can too.
older vehicles tend to get the cover keyword which is useless against crits. that needs to be changed.
Edited by KhobaiI wouldn't say it's really power creap. The aat and saber are about the same power level as the imperial heavies, though the at-st weapons could use a small points drop. Its more that the rebel heavies are under preforming so badly. I really want to like and use the t-47, but it needs barrage or some other offensive buff to make it worthwhile.
9 hours ago, F0RGED said:~sure rebels core has x2 the chance at hitting, 2x the chance of blocking, nimble, no AI attack. Guess B1s are ether over priced or all that for Coordinate must be worth it.
~Fleets sure, not sure that fixes the issue with them but with both them and the Troopers at 40 at least there is more of a choice.
~Vets sure, again not sure it fixes the issues for the.
~4ptsper model reduction might be a bit much for what they bring at 7 pts a wound then.
~Pathfinders, yea that seems fine
~Commandos I think you mean 56 seems fine
~Landspeeder yea all those feel about right
~Mandos too soon to tell, but might be a bit over priced as is.
So with that:
B1 36 >30 (this if they make the reb core cheaper....)
Droidikas 100 >80 (even at 80 points I dont think they are generally worth taking over STAPS just do to the lack of function with the army)
Dooku 205 >190 (Very expensive as is as with most commanders over valued in a shooting game)
Grevious 175 >165 ( as above)
B2 48 >42 (suffer from ranged 2 syndrome, hard to make work)
Cad 125>95 (have played him about 10 times andonly once felt he paid his points, hid field changing abilities just don't do enough for the cost)
The problem with point rebalances if you don't focus on the clearly broken and left behind units then you get bogged down in a what about this mentality.
I think you bring up an interesting point which is why I am not in favor of a rebel core unit point decrease. Whenever I put rebel core against CIS core I tend to win, and when I put Rebel core against GAR core I tend to lose with Empire being hit or miss. (Though B1s coordinate is worth a lot). If we hate a unit purely because it has white defense dice then the CIS will raise their hand fairly. That being said B1's have 6 units and the Rebel Trooper has 4 units so it isn't that the Rebels have 2X defense or hits because of that math. Also a B1 unit is harder to wipe out in one alpha attack due to poor rolls. A Jedi can quickly wipe out most factions trooper squads but just by virtue of HP those B1s are surprising hard to wipe out in an alpha strike. Honestly I bet if you asked Rebel players choose one, a rebel trooper or a B1, which do you think they will choose?
The problem I have with a Grievous and Dooku point reduction is they are a Meta unit right now for the CIS in invaders league. Not only that but the B1s points allow you to take some of the strongest commanders in the game. Cad Bane is the classic issue of a unit that is good but not great so why would anyone take it?
24 minutes ago, Uetur said:The problem with point rebalances if you don't focus on the clearly broken and left behind units then you get bogged down in a what about this mentality.
I think you bring up an interesting point which is why I am not in favor of a rebel core unit point decrease. Whenever I put rebel core against CIS core I tend to win, and when I put Rebel core against GAR core I tend to lose with Empire being hit or miss. (Though B1s coordinate is worth a lot). If we hate a unit purely because it has white defense dice then the CIS will raise their hand fairly. That being said B1's have 6 units and the Rebel Trooper has 4 units so it isn't that the Rebels have 2X defense or hits because of that math. Also a B1 unit is harder to wipe out in one alpha attack due to poor rolls. A Jedi can quickly wipe out most factions trooper squads but just by virtue of HP those B1s are surprising hard to wipe out in an alpha strike. Honestly I bet if you asked Rebel players choose one, a rebel trooper or a B1, which do you think they will choose?
The problem I have with a Grievous and Dooku point reduction is they are a Meta unit right now for the CIS in invaders league. Not only that but the B1s points allow you to take some of the strongest commanders in the game. Cad Bane is the classic issue of a unit that is good but not great so why would anyone take it?
There's a lot of really valid stuff there.
To add to it, points changes are really hard unless you completely curve out the entire faction properly, otherwise you can really mess up internal balance.
After all, Rebel Troopers, Fleet Troopers, and Rebel Veterans are all within 8 points of each other. That's not a lot of wiggle room.
Then there's the case of cross-faction balance, and that's where people can really lose perspective.
Clones get compared to other troopers a lot but it's really hard to value token sharing, which gets better with more units of the same type, to the independence of a self-sufficient unit (say Death Troopers or Taun Tauns) that doesn't require much hand holding and support to work well.
In the case of Clones it also severely limit list creativity and versatility since you want a large core of Clone Troopers in any list, low activation is not competitive in the game's current state, and Clone are really expensive. The "Clone bubble" is very effective right now but any nerf to any of its element, or any meta shift that makes them worse is going to see the GAR become really bad, really fast, since it's their one and only niche.
It would be unfair not to point out that the Clones are probably the most solid core troopers in the game right now, but when people start to call nerf I hope it's handled with a deft hand.
I would personally just much rather see a limit on strike teams, activation count addressed properly, and the Rebel and Imperial core choices being buffed up to par, rather than bringing down a new faction.
35 minutes ago, Uetur said:The problem I have with a Grievous and Dooku point reduction is they are a Meta unit right now for the CIS in invaders league. Not only that but the B1s points allow you to take some of the strongest commanders in the game. Cad Bane is the classic issue of a unit that is good but not great so why would anyone take it?
Of course they are a "Meta unit" for the CIS... They are literally the only option right now for the mandatory Commander.
2 hours ago, Khobai said:the airspeeder and landspeeder should both have outmaneuver for example, both are more maneuverable than the clone tank. instead they get the crappy cover rule which is useless because it doesnt negate crits. The cover keyword also doesnt work well with armor because armor already ignores regular hits so the cover keyword when combined with armor only helps vs impact attacks.
I think they should remove Cover 1 from all speeders, and change the Speeder X rules so that a unit with Speeder X can cancel X attack dice while defending, hits or crits. Or maybe make it just hits but build Outmaneuver into Speeder X (sort of like how Scale includes Expert Climber and Unhindered).
23 minutes ago, Lochlan said:I think they should remove Cover 1 from all speeders, and change the Speeder X rules so that a unit with Speeder X can cancel X attack dice while defending, hits or crits. Or maybe make it just hits but build Outmaneuver into Speeder X (sort of like how Scale includes Expert Climber and Unhindered).
Speeder X gives a dodge token at the beginning of each activation phase. Then give the speeders outmaneuver and nimble.
2 hours ago, KarlVonCarstein said:Its more that the rebel heavies are under preforming so badly. I really want to like and use the t-47, but it needs barrage or some other offensive buff to make it worthwhile.
6 minutes ago, Lochlan said:I think they should remove Cover 1 from all speeders, and change the Speeder X rules so that a unit with Speeder X can cancel X attack dice while defending, hits or crits. Or maybe make it just hits but build Outmaneuver into Speeder X (sort of like how Scale includes Expert Climber and Unhindered).
Ya the Empire heavies could just go down a few points since they are almost there. While the landspeeder has so many combos that I think a points drop on the unit and the guns could make some version good??? The airspeedr on the other hand really needs some keyword.
Just not sure which would be the best/easiest option to go with?
Rather them try to redo to unit, but I know that it will be hard with the cards. I would like a glass cannon approach, but would not mind if they try to make a tanky unit that harasses in the back line.
One thing that would probably help the Airspeeder is moving the points cost of Arsenal 2 off the actual unit onto the secondary guns. Since the unit can't innately benefit from Arsenal, it makes sense to me to put that cost on the additional weapons.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the biggest issues for the Airspeeder low Time on Target due to high speed and mandatory move?
2 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the biggest issues for the Airspeeder low Time on Target due to high speed and mandatory move?
One of them, sure. If it hit harder (it currently averages less than 2 dead Stormtroopers [if they're in the open...] per turn) then that would be less of an issue.
Edited by arnoldrew3R3B is up there with the best weapons in the game though. The Clone tank doesn't hit as hard and I haven't seen many complaints about its gun.
Which is why I mentioned time on target, since that's a really great weapon but if bringing it to bear is a hassle, then it could be shooting 8R and it still wouldn't matter that much.
3 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:3R3B is up there with the best weapons in the game though. The Clone tank doesn't hit as hard and I haven't seen many complaints about its gun.
Which is why I mentioned time on target, since that's a really great weapon but if bringing it to bear is a hassle, then it could be shooting 8R and it still wouldn't matter that much.
Its main gun has Critical 1 and range 4, as well as the ability to take up to 2 other weapons with firing arcs that overlap its main gun. It's an entirely different animal.
2 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:3R3B is up there with the best weapons in the game though. The Clone tank doesn't hit as hard and I haven't seen many complaints about its gun.
Yes, but the Sabre has Critical 1 and can add a second weapon to its pool, unlike the T-47. The Sabre can fire 2R5B2W Critical 2 every round. That shot hits way harder than the T-47.
Plus the T-47 is only range 3.
Airspeeder has some real bad identity crisis on its hands. Decent dice pool, but can't really shoot into cover or trade with other heavies. Wants to shoot from both arcs, but has to get between two units which is just suicide with its bad defense.
6 minutes ago, Lochlan said:Yes, but the Sabre has Critical 1 and can add a second weapon to its pool, unlike the T-47. The Sabre can fire 2R5B2W Critical 2 every round. That shot hits way harder than the T-47.
Plus the T-47 is only range 3.
Let's be fair though, at this point the tank costs 184 points and that shot is also only Range 3. That's 44 more points, so yeah it probably should hit a bit harder.
Of course the tank is probably still superior, but let's just make sure we're comparing properly.
6 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:Its main gun has Critical 1 and range 4, as well as the ability to take up to 2 other weapons with firing arcs that overlap its main gun. It's an entirely different animal.
Makes me think that what it really needs is just a new armament, maybe?
EDIT: Maybe a front facing gun that reduces it's speed to 2... hmmm...
Edited by OneLastMidnightQuote~sure rebels core has x2 the chance at hitting, 2x the chance of blocking, nimble, no AI attack. Guess B1s are ether over priced or all that for Coordinate must be worth it.
B1s are WAY cheaper than rebel troopers though. B1s are 60 points for the full unit of 6 plus the heavy weapon. Rebel troopers are 72 points for the full unit of 5 plus the heavy weapon and they have one less model than the B1s. So how can you say B1s are overpriced when theyre the cheapest basic troop unit in the game by a good margin.
If anything its rebel troopers that are overcosted compared to B1s.
Quote
Let's be fair though, at this point the tank costs 184 points and that shot is also only Range 3. That's 44 more points, so yeah it probably should hit a bit harder.
Of course the tank is probably still superior, but let's just make sure we're comparing properly.
To be fair you cant really compare the Airspeeder to the Sabre Tank at all.
The Airspeeder is a unique vehicle in that it starts off with many disadvantages that other vehicles dont have. For example the Airspeeder has to Kamikaze itself at the enemy army. None of the other large vehicles have to do that.
Im fine with the Airspeeder being a suicide vehicle. The problem is doesnt even live long enough to earn its points back. Ever. Not only is it forced to suicide itself but its not even good offensively or defensively. Its terrible in every meaningful regard.
Offensively its bad because it has split weapon arcs and cant combine all its weapons into one dice pool. Furthermore it has no way of ignoring cover or increasing the number of crits it rolls which makes it woefully ineffective against both infantry and vehicles.
Defensively its bad because it has low health and the cover keyword does crap all for keeping the airspeeder alive. It also flies so it cant ever hide behind terrain and can always be shot at by every gun that has range on it. That is really bad.
And if those two things werent bad enough it has compulsory move 3 and fixed forward weapons so it has to constantly fly towards the enemy if it even wants to attack. At least other vehicles like speeder bikes have pistols that can fire in every arc so theyre not screwed if its not facing the enemy. The airspeeder gets screwed over big time by not having a 360 arc weapon.
Combine those three disadvantages together and what you get is a kamikaze dumpster fire.
Because the airspeeder is in the unique position of having to suicide itself, unlike other vehicles, it should absolutely get better offense and defense to make up for that fact. Airspeeders will inevitably die, we can handle that, but it needs to be able to earn its points back before it dies. Thats how you make it playable again. If it costs 140 points then it needs to be able to kill 140 points in enemy models before it dies. Otherwise its not worth it since rebels can always just take tauntauns instead. And I promise I will keep playing 6 tauntauns and making things miserable for my opponent as long as I cant use my airspeeder.
I still think this is how you fix the airspeeder:
1) Give its main gun either blast or critical 2.
2) Give it outmaneuver and a free dodge token when it takes a move action (not a compulsory move)
3) Make both its rear weapons free because theyre both awful enough to be free. And buff the Harpoon by giving it pierce 1 and something else, maybe sharpshooter X or critical X. The tow cable should also immobilize vehicles for a turn in addition to pivoting them. tow cables really messed up the AT-ATs in the battle of hoth yet they do next to nothing in legion.
4) reduce the cost of outer rim jockey to 5 because 10 is insane for a rule the airspeeder doesnt even fully benefit from since it has armor. the other pilots suck too and need to be more useful.
5) give it a really dangerous one use per game weapon like proton bombs. that way it can better fill the distraction role in the army because the opponent either has shoot it down or it gets to drop its proton bombs on them.
Do like 3 of those 5 suggestions and the airspeeder would probably be fine.
Edited by Khobai15 hours ago, F0RGED said:Dooku 205 >190 (Very expensive as is as with most commanders over valued in a shooting game)
Grevious 175 >165 ( as above)
As a CIS player, absolutely not. I've been playing since the GCW core set got released and I've never once felt like I was at a disadvantage for using either of them (unlike Commander Vader)
Grievous is better Commander Luke, who is still good albeit he needs a second commander. Once the T-Series gets released, I expect to see him paired up with one akin to the old Wonder Twins lists except that the CIS has way better everything than the Rebels did at that point.
Dooku is expensive and even so I prefer him to Grievous. He shuts down pool noodle users hard, namely OP Luke and opposing Grievous. His command cards are all fantastic and play to the strength of the faction and he has a ranged attack that can pull targets out from cover that also hits harder than the RT rotary gun. The only thing more I could want is charge on him, but that is what Grievous is for.
Edited by thepopemobile100On 8/19/2020 at 11:14 AM, buckero0 said:The Rebels have a lot of Hit or Miss items. The Imperials seem to be much more centered. Newer factions seem to be better as well.
Rebels are lucky to hit 50% :
Troopers don't have much else, cheap 4 wounds
AT-RT terrible but got big points drop, useable
Fleet really bad from the start
Luke Good, solid character
Luke Expensive, but Powerful
Leia fantastic, overshadowed by more competitively ruled CW supportive Mother Amidala
Commandos strike teams used, adjusted, rarely used regular unit
Wookiees only for rookies, needed help out of the gates
Han - great command cards, lots of keywords, not used except in friendly games
Chewie as advertised, they still dropped his points
Jyn They had to drop 20pts right off the bat
Pathfinders poor, got better with points help
Air Speeder Lowest out of the gates, still poor
Landspeeder Poor, way too fragile =/ expensive like most Rebels
Cassian K2 - awesome
Sabine - awesome
FD turret - lackluster, but may have some personal bias, had to be upgraded in range to be useful
Rebel Vets - like the large commando unit but lacks synergy, weapons were overpriced and smaller unit much less useful.
R2 D2 fantastic
Tauntauns great
I know everyone complains about these last ones, but looking at how difficult it is for the designers to make a Rebels unit, you've got to kind of let it slide.
Imperial units tend to work well together. Rebels are usually, what can we hide or distract until the 3 good units can do something.
Just the number of units that have had points adjustments show you something isn't quite right.
As usual my friend we disagree with each other considerably.
Though I do agree with your bolded statement.
On 8/19/2020 at 12:41 PM, Khobai said:Because you still need Leia to make your troopers work otherwise your troopers are just terrible. Rex is a better commander for the simple reason that hes self-sufficient whereas Han solo is very much a synergystic commander
Should like their game design to me. But I agree he is to spendy
8 hours ago, Tirion said:As usual my friend we disagree with each other considerably.
Though I do agree with your bolded statement.
Well most of this is my summation of the general internet groupthink. I play Rebels more than any other faction and have learned to play and even enjoy certain units that are frowned on. My point was something is wrong when you have to fiddle with most of the units in a faction.
16 hours ago, Khobai said:B1s are WAY cheaper than rebel troopers though. B1s are 60 points for the full unit of 6 plus the heavy weapon. Rebel troopers are 72 points for the full unit of 5 plus the heavy weapon and they have one less model than the B1s. So how can you say B1s are overpriced when theyre the cheapest basic troop unit in the game by a good margin.
If anything its rebel troopers that are overcosted compared to B1s.
To be fair you cant really compare the Airspeeder to the Sabre Tank at all.
The Airspeeder is a unique vehicle in that it starts off with many disadvantages that other vehicles dont have. For example the Airspeeder has to Kamikaze itself at the enemy army. None of the other large vehicles have to do that.
Im fine with the Airspeeder being a suicide vehicle. The problem is doesnt even live long enough to earn its points back. Ever. Not only is it forced to suicide itself but its not even good offensively or defensively. Its terrible in every meaningful regard.
Offensively its bad because it has split weapon arcs and cant combine all its weapons into one dice pool. Furthermore it has no way of ignoring cover or increasing the number of crits it rolls which makes it woefully ineffective against both infantry and vehicles.
Defensively its bad because it has low health and the cover keyword does crap all for keeping the airspeeder alive. It also flies so it cant ever hide behind terrain and can always be shot at by every gun that has range on it. That is really bad.
And if those two things werent bad enough it has compulsory move 3 and fixed forward weapons so it has to constantly fly towards the enemy if it even wants to attack. At least other vehicles like speeder bikes have pistols that can fire in every arc so theyre not screwed if its not facing the enemy. The airspeeder gets screwed over big time by not having a 360 arc weapon.
Combine those three disadvantages together and what you get is a kamikaze dumpster fire.
Because the airspeeder is in the unique position of having to suicide itself, unlike other vehicles, it should absolutely get better offense and defense to make up for that fact. Airspeeders will inevitably die, we can handle that, but it needs to be able to earn its points back before it dies. Thats how you make it playable again. If it costs 140 points then it needs to be able to kill 140 points in enemy models before it dies. Otherwise its not worth it since rebels can always just take tauntauns instead. And I promise I will keep playing 6 tauntauns and making things miserable for my opponent as long as I cant use my airspeeder.
I still think this is how you fix the airspeeder:
1) Give its main gun either blast or critical 2.
2) Give it outmaneuver and a free dodge token when it takes a move action (not a compulsory move)
3) Make both its rear weapons free because theyre both awful enough to be free. And buff the Harpoon by giving it pierce 1 and something else, maybe sharpshooter X or critical X. The tow cable should also immobilize vehicles for a turn in addition to pivoting them. tow cables really messed up the AT-ATs in the battle of hoth yet they do next to nothing in legion.
4) reduce the cost of outer rim jockey to 5 because 10 is insane for a rule the airspeeder doesnt even fully benefit from since it has armor. the other pilots suck too and need to be more useful.
5) give it a really dangerous one use per game weapon like proton bombs. that way it can better fill the distraction role in the army because the opponent either has shoot it down or it gets to drop its proton bombs on them.
Do like 3 of those 5 suggestions and the airspeeder would probably be fine.
I like these suggestions. My personal requests would be:
1. Add critical 2 to the main gun.
2. Gain a outmanouver and a dodge for moving, including compulsory moves. Seriously if it's ok for tauntauns to get two dodge tokens for moving twice, its fine for the t-47, and a guaranteed dodge token each turn with outmanouver would help its survivability quite a bit.
I'd also think about making a new upgrade for it:
Advanced targeting array
T-47 only weapon upgrade
This unit gains barrage. 0 points.
The cost is because you are giving up the units arsenal 2.