4 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

He MIGHT be slightly better against those things, but not by much. Pierce is the most powerful keyword in the game.

As the game is currently constructed pierce is not the most powerful keyword in the game, the double action economy keywords such as relentless or charge are. If a Jedi didn't have at a minimum charge you can easily lose a turn of slashing which negates all that wonderful pierce you have.

Pierce on its own isn't enough or Han would be one of the strongest units in the game. He isn't and his two dice gun at range 2 is the reason. I forgot one other issue for Han that Rex is better against, basic dodge tokens and heavy cover. Han loses 50% of his damage potential automatically when faced with this. Rex doesn't necessarily (depending on saves). So to summarize Han has a clearly better gun platform than Rex if the enemy doesn't have: immune pierce, impervious, shields, armor, heavy cover, a dodge token.

Of course lets ignore the fact that because of his limited range Han is likely to run into Jedi which combines practical game experience with the theory crafting above.

It's a good thing for Han and Rex to have different strengths, if anything the game was too same-y when it was just Rebels and Imps, and now it seems like every faction is building its own identity.

Sure there's probably a need for some point re-jiggering, but I feel like both through keywords and command cards Rex and Han have very distinct and valid roles despite their firepower being similar.

If Han was 90pts i could figure out a way to make him work. Han and Chewie together are really strong, but at over a quarter of your points their strength gets watered down

21 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

If Han was 90pts i could figure out a way to make him work. Han and Chewie together are really strong, but at over a quarter of your points their strength gets watered down

Phew, for 90 points he'd see the table a LOT more. I'd be happy with 100 or even 110.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

If Han was 90pts i could figure out a way to make him work. Han and Chewie together are really strong, but at over a quarter of your points their strength gets watered down

Han’s defense and offense are both stronger than Rex’s, there’s no way they’d ever price him at 90 points.

Han averages 1.75 damage per attack; which, if they don’t have immune to pierce (Ie most units) means 1.75 wounds per attack; 3.5 wounds per turn.

Rex deals 2.625 damage per attack, but lacks Pierce, so his net output is 1.325 vs red, 1.75 vs white surge dice. Basically, he’s only as good as Han if he can shoot up someone with terrible defense. (Ie not clones, not Imperials)

Similarly, on defense Lucky 3 improves the block rate on 3 White surge defense dice to 55%, better than red no surge, dice. That’s before considering that Han has walking cover 2.

Han was designed and priced at a time where developers thought Range 2 could work if we only give them pierce (Fleets, Wookies ...). History tells us, that is not the case, so Han is highly overpriced. I fear that not even a drop to 100 or 90 Points might help, since there is little place in the game for squishy offensive range 2 units. His defense might look decent on paper, but he either gets hit by large dice pools and melts or he gets attacked by multiple units and runs. To be useful he must be close and there is no consistant way for him to use his offensive power and not get focussed down fast. For example Jedi are only viable because they can safely hide in engagements. Han is basically grounded when he gets engaged ...

As for Rex, he is 90% a support character. His main selling argument is Take That Clankers supported by Tactical. Usually his contribution to the game is handing out green tokens (standby + aim (free move)). I'd argue if he didn't have TTC, he'd be taken much less often and might be traded for the generic Commander (once he is out) to save points. For 90P you get a full P2 sqad with basically the same stats and much better offense.

You can't evaluate Han by looking at his unit card alone. His power comes from his command cards that open up a lot of strategies. Yes he can die under concentrated ranged fire that's why you have Reckless Diversions or Sorry About That Mess for a last-first activation from one turn to the next. He is a control character essentially and requires a lot of finesse - much like Dooku. I agree he could be a little bit to expensive right now, but not by that much. Maybe he should cost like 120 or 110 points. The one downside of using him right now is the prevalence of Lightsaber users so you usually need someone like Sabine to counter them, which limits list building.

7 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

Han was designed and priced at a time where developers thought Range 2 could work if we only give them pierce (Fleets, Wookies ...). History tells us, that is not the case, so Han is highly overpriced. I fear that not even a drop to 100 or 90 Points might help, since there is little place in the game for squishy offensive range 2 units. His defense might look decent on paper, but he either gets hit by large dice pools and melts or he gets attacked by multiple units and runs. To be useful he must be close and there is no consistant way for him to use his offensive power and not get focussed down fast. For example Jedi are only viable because they can safely hide in engagements. Han is basically grounded when he gets engaged ...

As for Rex, he is 90% a support character. His main selling argument is Take That Clankers supported by Tactical. Usually his contribution to the game is handing out green tokens (standby + aim (free move)). I'd argue if he didn't have TTC, he'd be taken much less often and might be traded for the generic Commander (once he is out) to save points. For 90P you get a full P2 sqad with basically the same stats and much better offense.

Note that fleets and Wookies are Rebel units. That’s a part of their close quarter unit identity.

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Note that fleets and Wookies are Rebel units. That’s a part of their close quarter unit identity.

Too bad the game isn't close range . Nice in skirmish though

Rex is better than Han. I think nobody who played both denies that. Rex ranged combat skills are worse, but the clones profit so much from him as a support character.

From today‘s point of view, Han is ridicoudly overpriced. He should not cost more points than Rex. Bring Han back!

I do wonder have many units need to be changed? Will just nurfing ARCs and P2s be enough to balance out the factions? GenCon top 8 compared to the Invaders League is quite striking in how all that diversity just disappears as the power creep sets in bad. A lot of GCW units need some love, but is it too late for a lot of those units and FFG just concentrate on fixing the most broken units?

16 minutes ago, Darth Rader said:

Rex is better than Han. I think nobody who played both denies that. Rex ranged combat skills are worse, but the clones profit so much from him as a support character.

From today‘s point of view, Han is ridicoudly overpriced. He should not cost more points than Rex. Bring Han back!

If released today I think he either would be 100p or get like steady or something.

12 hours ago, Derrault said:

Han’s defense and offense are both stronger than Rex’s, there’s no way they’d ever price him at 90 points.

Han averages 1.75 damage per attack; which, if they don’t have immune to pierce (Ie most units) means 1.75 wounds per attack; 3.5 wounds per turn.

Rex deals 2.625 damage per attack, but lacks Pierce, so his net output is 1.325 vs red, 1.75 vs white surge dice. Basically, he’s only as good as Han if he can shoot up someone with terrible defense. (Ie not clones, not Imperials)

Similarly, on defense Lucky 3 improves the block rate on 3 White surge defense dice to 55%, better than red no surge, dice. That’s before considering that Han has walking cover 2.

Unfortunately I like arguing on the internet and when someone says that Han at 120 pts clearly has a better gun than Rex at 90 points I have to jump in because it is wrong and it is why Han should be dropped to 90 points. Not because someone doesn't have good points but because they aren't justifying 30 extra points. The fun part about this is we all have different things we value and someone could look at Hans command cards and think what if....

Rex has tactical 1 and token sharing and the math above assumes no aims which Rex will usually auto have. Rex also has the benefit of sharing said aim token if he rolls well and doesn't use it. Also to make Han better we are also assuming no: immune pierce, impervious, shields, armor, heavy cover, a dodge token

So if Rex uses an aim token we get 2.91 attack 1 and 2.625/no aim attack 2. So that is 1.45 and 1.325 versus red saves. So in optimal scenario Han can deal about 3.5 wounds per turn and Rex 2.775. So Hans best case scenario is to charge into range in optimal scenarios and get 3-4 corp unit kills spread out amongst 2 units. Rex's is 0 wounds to 5.535 and a slightly lower average.

If firing into Cover Rex is: 1.68w/o aim and 1.98 w/aim and Han is 0.89. Let's assume he is still shooting troopers so we get 1.78 wounds across two units. Rex would be 1.83 against red saves. (clearly he will be flat out better against white saves) The math is similar for a dodge token, or shielded unit. Against an immune to pierce unit such as that Jedi charge you Capt Rex averages 1.45/aim and 1.31w/o aim and Han averages 0.87.

So basically Han is better if he gets to shoot red save units, outside of heavy cover who don't have immune to pierce. Rex is better against Jedi, units in cover, dodge tokens, shield tokens, and white saves. So the question is, is Han really that much better of a shooter than Rex, and by that I mean 30 points better?

35 minutes ago, Uetur said:

Unfortunately I like arguing on the internet and when someone says that Han at 120 pts clearly has a better gun than Rex at 90 points I have to jump in because it is wrong and it is why Han should be dropped to 90 points. Not because someone doesn't have good points but because they aren't justifying 30 extra points. The fun part about this is we all have different things we value and someone could look at Hans command cards and think what if....

Rex has tactical 1 and token sharing and the math above assumes no aims which Rex will usually auto have. Rex also has the benefit of sharing said aim token if he rolls well and doesn't use it. Also to make Han better we are also assuming no: immune pierce, impervious, shields, armor, heavy cover, a dodge token

So if Rex uses an aim token we get 2.91 attack 1 and 2.625/no aim attack 2. So that is 1.45 and 1.325 versus red saves. So in optimal scenario Han can deal about 3.5 wounds per turn and Rex 2.775. So Hans best case scenario is to charge into range in optimal scenarios and get 3-4 corp unit kills spread out amongst 2 units. Rex's is 0 wounds to 5.535 and a slightly lower average.

If firing into Cover Rex is: 1.68w/o aim and 1.98 w/aim and Han is 0.89. Let's assume he is still shooting troopers so we get 1.78 wounds across two units. Rex would be 1.83 against red saves. (clearly he will be flat out better against white saves) The math is similar for a dodge token, or shielded unit. Against an immune to pierce unit such as that Jedi charge you Capt Rex averages 1.45/aim and 1.31w/o aim and Han averages 0.87.

So basically Han is better if he gets to shoot red save units, outside of heavy cover who don't have immune to pierce. Rex is better against Jedi, units in cover, dodge tokens, shield tokens, and white saves. So the question is, is Han really that much better of a shooter than Rex, and by that I mean 30 points better?

I'd say in general, Rex is more versatile but swingy, dealing more damage to some units and less to others.

There's a few things you forgot here though:

Against Red saves w/ surge in heavy cover, Han deals 0.9 damage per shot, whereas Rex deals 0.66. 1.75 for Han vs 0.98 for Rex when they're out of cover.

And that's kind of the name of the game right now with Clones being strong and popular. Sure you can make a case that Han is worse at shooting Jedi and armor, but there's not really a lot of reasons to shoot those targets with these models, especially considering they don't get a lot of shooting turns due to their range.

You've also ignored defense (where Han is unarguably tougher) and command cards (where it's a lot more nuance and subjective, but I still think Han has the edge).

Sure, Han's gun isn't worth 30 points over Rex's, but he brings other things to the table.

I still do think he needs to come down some, though.

Han just needs a new upgrade to offset his weapon's short range:

Stormtrooper Armor

0 pts

Incognito

Han or Luke only

While we are at it:

Deactivated Stun Cuffs

0 pts

Incognito

Wookie only

2 hours ago, Uetur said:

Unfortunately I like arguing on the internet and when someone says that Han at 120 pts clearly has a better gun than Rex at 90 points I have to jump in because it is wrong and it is why Han should be dropped to 90 points. Not because someone doesn't have good points but because they aren't justifying 30 extra points. The fun part about this is we all have different things we value and someone could look at Hans command cards and think what if....

Rex has tactical 1 and token sharing and the math above assumes no aims which Rex will usually auto have. Rex also has the benefit of sharing said aim token if he rolls well and doesn't use it. Also to make Han better we are also assuming no: immune pierce, impervious, shields, armor, heavy cover, a dodge token

So if Rex uses an aim token we get 2.91 attack 1 and 2.625/no aim attack 2. So that is 1.45 and 1.325 versus red saves. So in optimal scenario Han can deal about 3.5 wounds per turn and Rex 2.775. So Hans best case scenario is to charge into range in optimal scenarios and get 3-4 corp unit kills spread out amongst 2 units. Rex's is 0 wounds to 5.535 and a slightly lower average.

If firing into Cover Rex is: 1.68w/o aim and 1.98 w/aim and Han is 0.89. Let's assume he is still shooting troopers so we get 1.78 wounds across two units. Rex would be 1.83 against red saves. (clearly he will be flat out better against white saves) The math is similar for a dodge token, or shielded unit. Against an immune to pierce unit such as that Jedi charge you Capt Rex averages 1.45/aim and 1.31w/o aim and Han averages 0.87.

So basically Han is better if he gets to shoot red save units, outside of heavy cover who don't have immune to pierce. Rex is better against Jedi, units in cover, dodge tokens, shield tokens, and white saves. So the question is, is Han really that much better of a shooter than Rex, and by that I mean 30 points better?

I mean, I’d never shoot an armored or pierce immune target with Han unless as a pure desperation move, because that’s essentially a wasted action, that’s why there are Impact units, after all. For the same reason, it’s always a bad choice to fire into full cover if it can be helped.

Edit: To be sure, it’s a bad idea for either Rex or Han to fire into full cover or armor, it’s just that it’s mildly less bad for Rex (still a REALLY bad idea)

So, yes, if it’s a correct move to fire at all, Han does it better.

1 hour ago, codytx2 said:

Han just needs a new upgrade to offset his weapon's short range:

Stormtrooper Armor

0 pts

Incognito

Han or Luke only

While we are at it:

Deactivated Stun Cuffs

0 pts

Incognito

Wookie only

Luke with incognito. Rip enemy commanders round 3+ every game 😋

Wow

Looks like i drummed up some conversation.

I do believe Han's poor defense is because of Chewie, just like Cassian and K2 work well together. Cassian with much better abilities and weapon is 105 base. Even with the crappy pistol he's 90pts

So I am curious what does everyone think are the biggest problems that FFG should address? Nurf new factions or buff the old ones? Points change or rules change? And who are the biggest targets that could use it?

GAR: For me it seems like token sharing will have to be changed somehow. Or they will have to really hit P2s and ARCs hard. BARCs could use some love tho.

CIS: Droids are strong, but I am not sure if anything is OP(super biased because this is my faction lol). Looking at most CIS stuff I would say it just that the GCW units need a lot more help to get on the same level. Droidekas are a bit overpriced.

Rebels: Seems like Han and the two heavies could use some love. Wookies need a redo with some new keywords maybe?

Empire: Never played so not sure would could use a buff. Dewbacks for sure, but not sure after that? Know they need a lot of help since it looks like they may be the weakest faction after everybody get their snipers. Funny to look at the meta shift from Gen con to Invader League.

3 hours ago, OneLastMidnight said:

I'd say in general, Rex is more versatile but swingy, dealing more damage to some units and less to others.

There's a few things you forgot here though:

Against Red saves w/ surge in heavy cover, Han deals 0.9 damage per shot, whereas Rex deals 0.66. 1.75 for Han vs 0.98 for Rex when they're out of cover.

And that's kind of the name of the game right now with Clones being strong and popular. Sure you can make a case that Han is worse at shooting Jedi and armor, but there's not really a lot of reasons to shoot those targets with these models, especially considering they don't get a lot of shooting turns due to their range.

You've also ignored defense (where Han is unarguably tougher) and command cards (where it's a lot more nuance and subjective, but I still think Han has the edge).

Sure, Han's gun isn't worth 30 points over Rex's, but he brings other things to the table.

I still do think he needs to come down some, though.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers and if someone loves a character awesome go for it, but Han should be the same price as Rex.

Red saves with surge is typically 1 of 4 factions, I mean if we just use white armor saves as an example Rex is slightly better with CIS and Rebels and fairly equivalent on IMPs in cover. One of the arguments I am making is you don't always have optimal choices of what you shoot at and Han needs optimal choices for his gun to be better. I think we all really agree Han's gun isn't worth 30 extra points. I haven't jumped into defense yet because Rex synergizes better with his army and so if someone tries to argue that Han is tankier I will point out scout, scouting party or tactical w ith token sharing. That extra defense doesn't seem worth the 30 points now?

Rex's command cards are the Meta for the clones, Hans not so much for the rebels. How is that worth 30 extra points?

1 hour ago, RyantheFett said:

So I am curious what does everyone think are the biggest problems that FFG should address? Nurf new factions or buff the old ones? Points change or rules change? And who are the biggest targets that could use it?

GAR: For me it seems like token sharing will have to be changed somehow. Or they will have to really hit P2s and ARCs hard. BARCs could use some love tho.

CIS: Droids are strong, but I am not sure if anything is OP(super biased because this is my faction lol). Looking at most CIS stuff I would say it just that the GCW units need a lot more help to get on the same level. Droidekas are a bit overpriced.

Rebels: Seems like Han and the two heavies could use some love. Wookies need a redo with some new keywords maybe?

Empire: Never played so not sure would could use a buff. Dewbacks for sure, but not sure after that? Know they need a lot of help since it looks like they may be the weakest faction after everybody get their snipers. Funny to look at the meta shift from Gen con to Invader League.

I say buff or rework old ones is the best way to go. Slight point increase when a unit dominates in each own faction to add variety.

1 hour ago, RyantheFett said:

So I am curious what does everyone think are the biggest problems that FFG should address? Nurf new factions or buff the old ones? Points change or rules change? And who are the biggest targets that could use it?

GAR: For me it seems like token sharing will have to be changed somehow. Or they will have to really hit P2s and ARCs hard. BARCs could use some love tho.

CIS: Droids are strong, but I am not sure if anything is OP(super biased because this is my faction lol). Looking at most CIS stuff I would say it just that the GCW units need a lot more help to get on the same level. Droidekas are a bit overpriced.

Rebels: Seems like Han and the two heavies could use some love. Wookies need a redo with some new keywords maybe?

Empire: Never played so not sure would could use a buff. Dewbacks for sure, but not sure after that? Know they need a lot of help since it looks like they may be the weakest faction after everybody get their snipers. Funny to look at the meta shift from Gen con to Invader League.

I'm a late comer and GAR player and I'd say that the nerf that would come to mind would be Standby tokens not being shareable outside Exemplar. BARCs were dead on arrival and I love the models so yeah if they could get a little buff that would be wonderful.

Always a problem when a resolutely "paper-based" game wants to update its rules to create better balance, they're very much stuck with all the existing physical copies that are no longer accurate. Adding keywords that didn't exist before a certain date to existing units seems like something they will be hesitant to do, and point changes can only go so far in terms of balancing.

Unless that 10 points off enables something incredible, it probably won't put a sub-par unit on the map. A lot of the times they need extra tools to be competitive, not just to be cheaper.

46 minutes ago, Uetur said:

I don't want to ruffle any feathers and if someone loves a character awesome go for it, but Han should be the same price as Rex.

Red saves with surge is typically 1 of 4 factions, I mean if we just use white armor saves as an example Rex is slightly better with CIS and Rebels and fairly equivalent on IMPs in cover. One of the arguments I am making is you don't always have optimal choices of what you shoot at and Han needs optimal choices for his gun to be better. I think we all really agree Han's gun isn't worth 30 extra points. I haven't jumped into defense yet because Rex synergizes better with his army and so if someone tries to argue that Han is tankier I will point out scout, scouting party or tactical w ith token sharing. That extra defense doesn't seem worth the 30 points now?

Rex's command cards are the Meta for the clones, Hans not so much for the rebels. How is that worth 30 extra points?

That's an opinion for sure.

Maybe his gun isn't worth 30 points, maybe his defense isn't worth 30 points, maybe his synergy with Chewie isn't, maybe his great command cards aren't, but hey, when you put it all together, it seems pretty good, perhaps outclassed by what are better options (or at least more meta), not necessarily through its own weakness.

I've also been saying Han should come down, so hey, why not repeat it one more time. Same as Rex? Maybe, but I think 100 to 110 would be pretty close to the mark.

Rex's cards are meta for the clones because Clone Troopers are great and you want more of them and a 90 point commander enables that, and you gotta take 3 extra command cards anyway, and you have no other options since we didn't get our generics. Because otherwise, Obi-Wan's command cards are pretty **** amazing and better across the board in my opinion. But he's one clone unit more expensive than Rex, so there it is.

I think Rex's 3-pip is much weaker version than Obi's and his 1-pip is mostly useless but you could do worse than giving Rex a quick order with a chance to do something else maybe.

i would wait until the new units are released and played with.

Tauntauns have been complained about since release but now they've been passed up by the entire Republic faction as a whole.

Gunline Imperials used to be complained about, they've been passed up. It sounds like whatever program FFG is running, is working for them.

It may not be what we'd prefer, but that's what we're getting

7 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Luke with incognito. Rip enemy commanders round 3+ every game 😋

How fun would that be in a scenario? No lightsaber for Luke. Rescue a commander or operative for rebel side; defend prisoner for imperials.

8 hours ago, codytx2 said:

How fun would that be in a scenario? No lightsaber for Luke. Rescue a commander or operative for rebel side; defend prisoner for imperials.

Oh, no lightsaber. That could work.