5 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Furthermore cover is pretty much useless on the airspeeder due to it having armor. The only time cover ever does anything for the airspeeder is when the impact keyword is present and theres exactly one hit in the attack pool. Because if theres more than one hit, cover still only negates one hit, and the other hit(s) gets upgraded to crits from impact.

If you have two hits with Impact 2, Cover 1 will prevent a crit. Cover only doesn't matter if the attacker doesn't have more hits than their Impact rating (granted, that is usually the case, unless they have a really high Impact rating).

I meant with impact 1

obviously it changes if its impact 2 or impact 3

the point is cover is pretty useless on the airspeeder

the airspeeder doesnt need the situational ability to sometimes negate hits before they might become crits if theres impact.

it needs the ability to always negate crits. which is why it needs a free dodge each turn and outmaneuver.

1) give the airspeeder agile 1 (or even quick thinking 1) and outmaneuver and possibly nimble (nimble might be too good with the other buffs)

2) get rid of cover on the base airspeeder. change the outer rim jockey from cover 1 to cover 2. then it might be worth 10 points. and it makes paying extra for the ability to stop impact weapons optional.

3) buff the airspeeders offensive capability so its attack pool can sufficiently penetrate cover. Giving it surge to crit wouldnt be a bad option here. Because that helps out the rear gun too.

thats what the airspeeder needs.

@Khobai You are still ignoring the fact that Agile requires the unit to move before it gets any Dodge tokens. So the Airspeeder is sitting still, easy to hit until after it activates, which doesn't fit with the Speeder keyword's compulsory move or the fact that the Airspeeder is an aircraft. Even with Outmaneuver, Dodge doesn't do a thing against large pools of attack dice with Impact since Dodge is applied at the same step of an attack as Cover, before Impact is applied . Agile also only helps against the first attack after the T-47's activation, unlike Cover which works for the entire turn.

What Cover (or Dodge) with Armour does do is make it so that focused fire is required for infantry units to push through Impact, they can't just split fire with the Heavy weapon to put damage on the Airspeeder. Adding a new keyword allowing Cover to be applied to Crits would solve your complaint more easily, without making the Airspeeder vulnerable prior to it's activation.

The turning radius of aircraft is dependent upon the slowest speed the aircraft can go without stalling. Flying slowly makes aircraft easier to target and hit. The Sabre Fighter hover tank has boosters allowing it to suddenly "dash" to one side (moving quickly in an unexpected fashion to avoid incoming fire).

Where in the following clip exactly does an Airspeeder do anything to avoid ground fire? I see an awful lot of misses, no real evasive maneuvers by the T-47. Luke flies straight at a pair of AT-ATs and is shot down, no fancy flying despite being an excellent pilot (barrel rolls, swerves, jinks, really anything that could be considered an evasive maneuver). That doesn't speak well for the T-47 being particularly able to "Outmaneuver" ground fire.

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The turning radius of aircraft is dependent upon the slowest speed the aircraft can go without stalling.

the airspeeder doesnt fly by generating lift from wings surfaces though. it doesnt even have enough wing surface to do that. it flies because it has repulsor engines that oppose the force of gravity. it can even hover in place if it wants to. its not an airplane.

so no the turning radius of the airspeeder has absolutely nothing to do with its stall speed because it doesnt stall. the airspeeder uses ailerons to help it turn but I imagine it can still turn even without the ailerons by just using its repulsor engines. the ailerons just help it turn better once it starts moving faster.

which is why it quite frankly shouldnt even have a stupid compulsory move. no speeder should have a compulsory move. because they can all hover in place.

instead of compulsory move being compulsory, speeders should get the option whether or not they want to take a free move before their normal actions. because if a speeder doesnt want to fly around at full throttle all the time it shouldnt have to. It can slow down or stop and hover in place if it wants to.

compulsory move is another one of those bad derpy rules. it doesnt make any sense and it makes speeders feel like that sonic the hedgehog mod where sonic has to keep running or he gets fat and dies. speeders do not have to always drive around at full throttle all the time, its okay for them to stop, they arnt going to explode if they stop.

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What Cover (or Dodge) with Armour does do is make it so that focused fire is required for infantry units to push through Impact, they can't just split fire with the Heavy weapon to put damage on the Airspeeder. Adding a new keyword allowing Cover to be applied to Crits would solve your complaint more easily, without making the Airspeeder vulnerable prior to it's activation.

and yet nobody is using airspeeders. why? because cover doesnt keep them alive. cover is extremely bad on airspeeders because its so absurdly cornercase and only works on impact weapons when a specific number of hits appear on the dice.

I also dont believe the airspeeder should have a keyword that allows cover to stop crits. thats why I didnt suggest it. I dont think the airspeeder should even have cover in the first place. its a stupid keyword for the airspeeder especially with all the sharpshooter in the meta right now. the last thing the airspeeder needs is to rely more on a defensive keyword thats easily countered by one of the most overused and omnipresent keywords in the game.

The airspeeder should get a free dodge token each turn, outmaneuver, and possibly nimble. because dodge tokens are the rebel's macro game mechanic. The airspeeder should have the same overall feel as all the other units in the same army it belongs to. Dodging is what rebels units do, thats their mechanism for defense, so yes the airspeeder should absolutely be able to dodge things.

@Khobai When in canon does the T-47 Airspeeder ever hover? You are assuming it can but I don't think you can show evidence to support that claim since as far as I know that has never been shown in canon. Star Wars is science fantasy, so the rules of Star Wars physics and mechanics are whatever the Lucas and now Disney want them to be for the story. All of the canonical artwork I can find shows them taking off like traditional aircraft, not VTOL or helicopters. It's possibly that the repulsors have to be powered by the main engines, which for whatever reason have to apply thrust if they are on ("stupid" as that may be).

Sharpshooter and Blast is decidedly NOT the the main reason the Airspeeder is bad by any stretch of the imagination. The airspeeder is bad because it doesn't have enough affect on the game for the points spent on it. The T-47 Airspeeder has been considered bad since it was released, well before most of the units with Sharpshooter were released. Its inability to affect the board in a significant way for the amount of points it costs is the main problem, which has only become more obvious as time has gone on. In the first week of the game the survivability was pegged by many as the issue (notably well before Sharpshooter or blast was a big issue, and also before the T-47 became immune to grenades), but as time went on, it was realized that it didn't matter much how survivable it was, what mattered more was how little it offered to help you win the game either by defeating your opponent's units or scoring objectives.

At the end of the day, vehicles cost quite a few points but don't often do enough to help you win the game for the amount of points spent on them. Maybe that will change with the new objectives, but judging by Invader League that doesn't seem to be the case. Infantry are able to contribute to every objective, and tend to be more points efficient than vehicles. There have been a few exceptions, but we'll see how the meta shakes out after the hinted at upcoming points adjustment, which may come with further Errata.

4 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

When in canon does the T-47 Airspeeder ever hover?

So how does pilot get into airspeeder if it doesn't hover? Speeder bike is the same.

5 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Khobai When in canon does the T-47 Airspeeder ever hover? You are assuming it can but I don't think you can show evidence to support that claim since as far as I know that has never been shown in canon.

the airspeeder can definitely hover. its classified as a repulsorlift vehicle.

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All of the canonical artwork I can find shows them taking off like traditional aircraft

but it doesnt even have wheels for landing gears so it certainly isnt taking off or landing on runways.

it absolutely can VTOL off the ground like every single repulsorlift vehicle in the starwars universe can.

again the compulsory move rule makes absolutely no sense in legion, its a bad rule, and the compulsory move for speeders should be an optional move, not a compulsory one.

3 hours ago, craigden said:

So how does pilot get into airspeeder if it doesn't hover? Speeder bike is the same.

Hover here meaning like a helicopter, not slightly off the ground. It definitely doesn't switch from forward flight to "hover mode" ina split second at any time we see it. Neither do Speeder Bikes honestly, or many of those crashes shouldn't have occured.

@Khobai ESB literally shows the Airspeeder taxing out of the hanger under its own power near ground level. They aren't taking off vertically then flying out. It doesn't need wheels, it's a Stat Wars vehicle. 'Hover' in this context is coming to a full stop at altitude, not barely off the ground.

This image is from a canon reference book:

Notably, the T-47 Snowspeeders are increasing with altitude as they move forward. This is canon, so unless you have a different canon source showing or mentioning their ability to maintain significant altitude while hovering, or to quickly come to a complete stop while maintaining altitude, you are making unfounded assumptions about the workings of a fictional vehicle.

Would it help if the compulsory move was done before any other activations, you could choose to make a speed 0 to [units speed] move and got 1 dodge token based on said speed? It wouldn't solve the T47's armor issues I guess, but it may help other speeders at least?

1 hour ago, RejjeN said:

Would it help if the compulsory move was done before any other activations, you could choose to make a speed 0 to [units speed] move and got 1 dodge token based on said speed? It wouldn't solve the T47's armor issues I guess, but it may help other speeders at least?

If you get to pick the speed of the movement, then it stops being compulsory. Again, when do we see any of the speeders act like a helicopter in a combat situation? The T-47 Airspeeder acts far more like a ground attack aircraft (such as either of the aircraft that have borne the "Thunderbolt" name) than it does a helicopter. The Speeder Bikes are "to blame" for the crashing component of the Speeder keyword, since we see them flying at high speed through a forest and crashing into trees. The compulsory move represents the minimum combat speed the of vehicle. It only particularly feels out of place to me on the X-34 Landspeeder since we see another similar vehicle in Episode 1 (the Gian Speeder) participate in combat while at a full stop. Landspeeders though are different from either a Speeder Bike or Airspeeder. The speeder bikes seem very much to have a minimum speed of fast, going all the way through ludicrously fast. Otherwise the (presumably) trained scout trooper had ample opportunity to stop and avoid crashing into those tree roots. While the airspeeder again is presented as an airplane, not a helicopter. If it could hover, it would be much easier to shoot the neck of the AT-AT without having to first knock it over.
The time scale for Legion is very hard to pin down, so it's hard to say how much total time "in universe" Legion is supposed to represent. It is played in scale on a space that is smaller than a football field (of either kind).

35 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Again, when do we see any of the speeders act like a helicopter in a combat situation?

To be fair, STAPs do exactly that at least one time that I can think of in The Clone Wars. When we got the Hover: Air rules in the RRG earlier this year I thought for sure STAPs were going to use that.

But that's the only speeder vehicle I can think of that is shown to do that.

34 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

To be fair, STAPs do exactly that at least one time that I can think of in The Clone Wars. When we got the Hover: Air rules in the RRG earlier this year I thought for sure STAPs were going to use that.

But that's the only speeder vehicle I can think of that is shown to do that.

I also thought we would see Hover on the STAP for the same reason.

But to be fair we also do not see that same capability on either (specifically) the T-47 Airspeeder nor the Speeder Bike. Different vehicles have different capabilities in Star Wars, and different limitations, that much we are repeatedly shown and told.