14 hours ago, dezzmont said:

... or nerf a mechanic for everyone because it was good on the Delta (Ex: Regen Jedi resulted in a global nerf to repair astromechs)

Time for a potentially unpopular opinion: regen droids died for their own sins and all the Delta-7B really did was bring those sins to light. They weren't suddenly fun and wholesome because they were being put on an X-wing or what have you. No one should be getting 2 Shield Upgrades for less than the price of 1 just because they're coming in astromech form, and the game is far better off with the R2 Astros relegated to the niche upgrade binder.

Same for force. Except that there is barely a bad force user. Ezra, Maul and Dooku pilots might be the only pilots, and some crew compete for the same slot.

e: and inconsequential Barris

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

the game is far better off with the R2 Astros relegated to the niche upgrade binder

They kinda were outside regen jedi though.

They were so niche and unused they got buffed down to 2 points before regen jedi utterly broke them. Before the Delta-7 came out, R2 units were used in only around 80 tournament squads because the turn of downtime was such a huge cost for most smalls in a game like X-wing, making the upgrade that is 'two shield upgrades' so bad it wasn't even seeing play at 3 points: it takes a very specific kind of ship to actually get any sort of value from them.

The R2 unit, from before July 2019 only saw play 80 or so times in tournaments, while from July 2019 to January 2020, it saw play 1762 times, or a 2200% occurrence rate increase in that 6 month period where regen Jedi was a thing compared to the game's entire history.

Remember when the Jedi came out and almost the whole world thought CLT was rubbish, compared to 7B?

Oh hindsight, how you mock.

5 hours ago, DR4CO said:

No one should be getting 2 Shield Upgrades for less than the price of 1 just because they're coming in astromech form

It's not just 2 shield upgrades for the price of 1 though, is it?

It's two Shield Upgrades that are only 'active' once you've already taken damage and that you have to take disarm token for a whole round to activate. Two Shield Upgrades on a two shield ship would mean you had to do five damage to even have a chance of putting a crit on them. Regen on a two shield ship means you only have to do three damage in a round to potentially drop a crit on them. And even over the course of two rounds with regen active, that only gets back up to four damage needed.

And that disarm is brutal on most astromech ships. X-Wings especially are bad at running away to regen, yes they have boost but being max 4 straight is a such a hindrance. And X-Wings really want to be shooting as many turns as they possibly can, given they're not the highest HP/Agility balance in the world.

If we're doing hot takes, then mine is that regen is actually quite a nice mechanic now that it's tied to disarm tokens. It feels thematic as **** to me - pulling power from weapons to boost the shields - and I think it's actually a real decision for players to make: losing an attack now for potentially longer survival and a longer term game plan. Being limited to two charges only helps that, it means you've got to pick your moment.

The problem is that Jedi have ways of protecting and leveraging that regen that goes beyond fair. Regen + 3 agility + free dice modification + 5 forward and boost/roll/both is too difficult for the other player to deal with and minimises so many of the negatives of regen that it's not really a decision for the Jedi player.

5 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Time for a potentially unpopular opinion: regen droids died for their own sins and all the Delta-7B really did was bring those sins to light.

I'll agree, but those sins were mostly theoretical. Luke (just a less-mobile D7B), Corran (who used to be even more overpriced), and Wedge (LOL at Wedge getting an opportunity to regen) were kinda the only options.

R2 is better now where it is than where it was, to be sure. I wouldn't be surprised to see R5 getting the scaling treatment soon, with the Actis around the corner, and that too will be good.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Same for force. Except that there is barely a bad force user. Ezra, Maul and Dooku pilots might be the only pilots, and some crew compete for the same slot.

e: and inconsequential Barris

Ezra to be sure. I'd probably put Asajj and Kanan-pilot with him.

The rest (Maul, Dooku, Barriss, even the v1s) are all bound up in nerfs and buffs. Folks hated the 40 point generic Inquisitor, so FFG kept buffing it until it got strong. Barriss has also been creeping down in price, and is totally reasonable just as an Init 4 filler. Not heavily played yet, but above-average results. Maul/Dooku started strong, and got more nerfs than they could handle (and I suspect Maul might come back once the Firespray is out).

17 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

If we're doing hot takes, then mine is that regen is actually quite a nice mechanic now that it's tied to disarm tokens. It feels thematic as **** to me - pulling power from weapons to boost the shields - and I think it's actually a real decision for players to make: losing an attack now for potentially longer survival and a longer term game plan. Being limited to two charges only helps that, it means you've got to pick your moment.

I share this view in a weird way. Weird, because I still dislike it as a game feature.

Case in point. I faced Wedge, Luke, Thane, all with regen a while ago. Couple of lucky rolls on their greens gave them a very narrow win. Without regen, they would have been utterly pasted. Also lost on the last turn of another fairly one sided game, the same day, as my reds whiffed and Jess managed to regen back over half.

Both kinda left a taste in my mouth no less bitter than a fleeing Jedi would have.

(Both opponents obviously happy with their wins, but both also expressed how very much unearned they were)

Technically, it can be a tactical and thematic tool with interesting decisions on either side, but equally, it can just be fudged into an undeserved game winning score late on.

Some lists are not suited to just smashing through those regen charges and can be at an innate disadvantage against it, even when it isn't being used optimally.

I appreciate regen both existing and also costing too much to be competitive.

30 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Remember when the Jedi came out and almost the whole world thought CLT was rubbish, compared to 7B?

Oh hindsight, how you mock.

CLT Obi: released at 61, now 53

7B Obi: released at 70, now 70 (and banned from the good format)

9 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Remember when the Jedi came out and almost the whole world thought CLT was rubbish, compared to 7B?

Oh hindsight, how you mock.

I mean, it *was* rubbish compared to 7B at release, and got pretty well buffed. Republic/Separatist release points are one of the few PDFs I don't have, but the costs used to be a lot worse.

From what I can remember, CLT was 8 points at Init 5, compared to the flat 15 of 7B? I know Anakin paid 10 points for it, and I think even lowly Jedi Knights paid 4. They would have been like 43 points total, instead of current 39. On top of that, base prices for Aethersprites were higher for everyone but Anakin.

Plus, I don't know that anyone now thinks 7B is worse, just that CLT Jedi, by dint of the force, are pretty good, too.

13 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

It's not just 2 shield upgrades for the price of 1 though, is it?

No, it was 2 shield upgrades for half the price of 1 shield... At Jedi release, Shield Upgrade was the same 8 points it is now. R2 Astromech, however, having been unplayed at 6 points, got buffed down to 4.

Sure, the circumstances of it are different on the table, but dang was it a lot of health for the price, and most players didn't have too much trouble getting the two shields in over the course of a game.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Remember when the Jedi came out and almost the whole world thought CLT was rubbish, compared to 7B?

Oh hindsight, how you mock.

Well, it was double the cost of what it is now when it came out, so, yeah, CLT was kinda rubbish.

6 hours ago, dezzmont said:

They kinda were outside regen jedi though.

They were so niche and unused they got buffed down to 2 points before regen jedi utterly broke them. Before the Delta-7 came out, R2 units were used in only around 80 tournament squads because the turn of downtime was such a huge cost for most smalls in a game like X-wing, making the upgrade that is 'two shield upgrades' so bad it wasn't even seeing play at 3 points: it takes a very specific kind of ship to actually get any sort of value from them.

R2's were never 2 points, and they were only ever 3 points on a 1 agility ship. Despite that, you are right that it takes a special kind of ship to get use out of them. Very few ships can Brave Sir Robin their way out of battle and regen like the Jedi. Regen truly isn't that bad except on them and Ric Olie.

I really enjoy some of these existing Obi lists below, but Republic feels alot more constrained than FO in terms of choices and I think that largely loops back to heavily discounted Force Users. Empire is struggling with the same thing with the addition of 4 more cheap force charges with 5th and 7th. Arcs, Torrents, N1s, and Y-Wings all seem to expensive to allow Jedi to be priced correctly. Adding the LAAT, V-Wing, & ETA2 to the Republic mix should help considerably in opening up the faction as well.

Republic Lists:

• Obi Plo Ric Lumi
• Obi Plo Lumi Tano
• Obi Plo Ric Ani
• Obi Ric Ani Padme
• Obi Plo Lumi Wolffe
• Obi Plo Ric/Lumi Torrent Torrent
• Obi Plo Broadside Torrent Torrent
• Obi Arc Broadside Torrent Torrrent
• Obi N1 N1 Torrent Torrent Torrent
• Plo Lumi Torrent Torrent Torrent Torrent
• 4 CLT Jedi + Broadside

FO Lists:

• Kylo Holo/Vonreg FO FO
• Kylo SF SF SF FO
• Kylo SF SF SF
• Kylo BA BA BA
• Kylo FO FO FO FO
• Kylo LeHuse FO FO FO
• Kylo Holo/Vonreg Silencer
• Kylo Blackout Rush
• Kylo Blackout LeHuse
• Kylo Blackout FO FO
• Holo/Vonreg LeHuse FO FO FO
• Holo Vonreg FO FO FO
• Holo/Vonreg Silencer Silencer Silencer
• Holo SF SF SF FO FO
• BA BA BA BA SF
• FO FO FO FO FO FO FO FO
• Silencer Silencer Silencer Silencer
• Avenger SF SF FO FO FO
• SF SF SF SF SF SF
• SF SF SF SF

Empire Lists:

• Vader Duchess 5th 7th
• Vader Duchess Baron Baron Baron
• Vader Duchess Countdown Sabacc
• Vader RAC Duchess/7th
• 5th 7th Vermiel Saber Hask
• 5th 7th Countdown Saber Saber
• 5th 7th Baron Baron Baron Baron
• Saber Saber Saber Saber Baron Baron
• Duchess Striker Striker Striker Striker Striker

24 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

CLT was kinda rubbish.

I am not entirely sure that was ever true. Nothing about it has changed mechanically besides what it is competing with. Ani Obi or Plo with CLT were always strong and mixes of those made deep runs at Worlds and tournaments throughout 2019. For reference. 190 was probably to high but the subsequent decrease was really dramatic. 169 is likely a little to low. Itll stay that way until Republic gets better or cheaper Non-Force options or the better designed ETA which has alot more going on in terms of in game constraints and likely warps other republic things around it less. The original points for Obi/Plo make a lot more sense in comparison to other similarly priced and similarly capable Aces even now. Obi/Plo at 61-59 falls apart though when you look at the Republic faction as a whole.

38 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

R2's were never 2 points, and they were only ever 3 points on a 1 agility ship.

Your right! My wires got crossed there, and I believe I mixed it up with a sentence where I mentioned them dropping 2 points on their launch cost didn't help them at all, that I took out!

38 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Very few ships can Brave Sir Robin their way out of battle and regen like the Jedi. Regen truly isn't that bad except on them and Ric Olie.

I would go on to say the fact that these ships can just fully, for lack of a term that gets the idea across better without being crass, show their *** to the enemy list and be totally fine and actively get value out of the disengage by default indicates a problem with the ship. The fact a ship so overloaded as the Delta-7 isn't good enough to single-handedly carry the faction, despite being under-costed, unless it gets some weird exploitative nonsense, also may indicate a problem with 2.0, similar to some problems in 1.0 where ship stats and abilities just need to be so inflated to be competitive it got ridiculous. I don't like the idea of a force using swarm, but it is kinda interesting how modding is so easy for the meta lists that a 3 aces+1 list, 3 of which have force points, wasn't really good enough.

I think that is the ultimate take away from the (what seems to be, at least according to the poll) agreement that CLT Jedi are undercosted, despite the fact they are 'bad.' They are outside of what most people agree the curve of the game should be, but they aren't even a second tier list, which indicates there is some serious nonsense going on in the world of X-wing if an 'under-costed' list isn't even good.

13 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Perhaps rubbish was too strong of a word, but rather high B to low A tier. They probably just seemed worse in a world of Quad Phantom and Rebel Beef. I think CLT Anakin at 67 and CLT Plo at 49 is more correct than 70 and 59. However, Obi should be closer to his original cost of 61, maybe 58 or 59?

Honestly, I always thought CLT was good. So there

You might once have paid something like 8pt more for it in your list, but the savings over 7B paid off well, from day 1. My point is really that, if it's undercosted now, then it was never particularly overcosted to begin with.

The conclusion being that true facts can be somewhat nebulous.

5 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The fact a ship so overloaded as the Delta-7 isn't good enough to single-handedly carry the faction, despite being under-costed, unless it gets some weird exploitative nonsense, also may indicate a problem with 2.0, similar to some problems in 1.0 where ship stats and abilities just need to be so inflated to be competitive it got ridiculous. I don't like the idea of a force using swarm, but it is kinda interesting how modding is so easy for the meta lists that a 3 aces+1 list, 3 of which have force points, wasn't really good enough.

I think that is the ultimate take away from the (what seems to be, at least according to the poll) agreement that CLT Jedi are undercosted, despite the fact they are 'bad.' They are outside of what most people agree the curve of the game should be, but they aren't even a second tier list, which indicates there is some serious nonsense going on in the world of X-wing if an 'under-costed' list isn't even good.

The problem is less that the Delta7 can't carry the faction, and more that the faction has super cheap Aces while most of everything else was overcosted aside from Sinker, Broadside, and generics. Droids dropping in cost removed Sinker swarm as a competitor. But combine the rise in droid cost, every named Torrent and nearly every Y-Wing went down in cost and with the addition of the LAAT, perhaps we'll see some more archtype diversity in the Republics future.

46 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Honestly, I always thought CLT was good. So there

You might once have paid something like 8pt more for it in your list, but the savings over 7B paid off well, from day 1. My point is really that, if it's undercosted now, then it was never particularly overcosted to begin with.

The conclusion being that true facts can be somewhat nebulous.

I mean, I liked CLT from the start and felt it was under-rated.

My first Republic squad was 2 Torrent, 2 ARC, CLT R2 Obi. I tried out some Ani/Obi/Mace CLT pretty early, and it was kinda fun. Then they buffed CLT, and I was able to add R2 and Talents to everyone, and get a bigger bid.

However... I think the value added by 7B was probably better than the value added by most of what else you could get for the points difference, particularly considering the massive ease-of-use of a standard firing arc instead of having to get bullseye.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

The problem is less that the Delta7 can't carry the faction, and more that the faction has super cheap Aces while most of everything else was overcosted aside from Sinker, Broadside, and generics.

Sure, but it isn't like most aces are run with other pieces, right?

In theory super cheap undercosted aces (to the point, again, they managed to squeeze an entire extra ship into a pretty conventional tri-aces list, which really shouldn't happen), should be enough, because the fact Empire has cheap... I dunno... TIE/Lns doesn't factor into the strength of Vader and friends at all.

The droid change and Boba change should hopefully open up the meta a bit though. A big problem with most of the non-jedi pieces is that they couldn't push damage through all those mods, it was just really oppressive to a lot of non-ace and non-swarm ships, and it wasn't exactly unique to republic that most ships were unusable in a meta where firing 'only' a focused 3 dice shot meant your ship was only pushing .5 damage vs the gatekeeper list's ships a turn.

I think things are looking up for the republic the way the new points shook out.

Also fighting CLT jedi they feel on par with most other lists. I fought my resistance salad (3X, rose, zari) vs 4 CLT jedi and it felt like good wholesome X wing. As the player with bigger guns I felt like i needed to really focus fire and make killboxes. The jedi player felt like they had to run and take shots of opportunity. Super close game and came down to last shot. Thats what X wing should be. A game that rewards you for flying well. CLT is the epitome of rewarding you for flying well.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

Sure, but it isn't like most aces are run with other pieces, right?

In theory super cheap undercosted aces (to the point, again, they managed to squeeze an entire extra ship into a pretty conventional tri-aces list, which really shouldn't happen), should be enough, because the fact Empire has cheap... I dunno... TIE/Lns doesn't factor into the strength of Vader and friends at all.

Aces are run with other junk. Vader+Vynder+Jendon and Vader+Echo+Sai are two easy examples of strong lists with only one true ace in the list. Imperials benefit from have a solid, decently costed version of nearly any archtype of ship which the Republic lacked/lacks. If Republic can get a list like the two Ace + mid-level Bruiser + Support out of the new releases, perhaps we'll see more than just Aces from them.

11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Same for force. Except that there is barely a bad force user. Ezra, Maul and Dooku pilots might be the only pilots, and some crew compete for the same slot.

e: and inconsequential Barris

Barris in particular is less of a 'shes not good' and more of a 'there are better options in that points range. I'd expect Barris in a faction without other aethersprites would be played quite a bit

3 hours ago, jagsba said:

Barris in particular is less of a 'shes not good' and more of a 'there are better options in that points range. I'd expect Barris in a faction without other aethersprites would be played quite a bit

You'd think that I4 would be worth a point over a generic...?

27 minutes ago, gennataos said:

You'd think that I4 would be worth a point over a generic...?

I look at her for replacing a CLT Jedi Knight in the 5 CLT Jedi Knight or 4 CLT Jedi Knight + Broadside list, but her I4 status actually seems a detriment to the planning phase as all those other ships are at I3. Perhaps once the I4 generic Jedi come out in the Eta-2, they will fly well with her.

58 minutes ago, gennataos said:

You'd think that I4 would be worth a point over a generic...?

Yeah what 5050 said. Matching i3 makes sense in a spam list and how often do you see a filler generic Jedi knight?

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, I liked CLT from the start and felt it was under-rated.

Then they buffed CLT, and I was able to add R2 and Talents to everyone, and get a bigger bid.

I mean, yes, this. And Y Wings. At that point, my Rep list was the best list I've used.

It got a little bit harder again, but more releases will help with balancing a squad.

Buuuut, CLT itself... I might think it's still just Obi and Plo that may be under. So maybe not actually CLT.

CLT Knights are a bit fine. They have screwy mechanics that avoid a lot of circumstance, ofc, I think it's a feature.... Fun and wholesome, if you fly them expendibly

I call it the Palpatine gambit....

Broadside is still cheap enough to make things just work. Not a small factor.

7 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Aces are run with other junk. Vader+Vynder+Jendon and Vader+Echo+Sai are two easy examples of strong lists with only one true ace in the list. Imperials benefit from have a solid, decently costed version of nearly any archtype of ship which the Republic lacked/lacks. If Republic can get a list like the two Ace + mid-level Bruiser + Support out of the new releases, perhaps we'll see more than just Aces from them.

I think your missing my point. The idea that undercosted jedi aces are being 'held back' by the fact that other ships in the faction are over costed is like saying Boba Fett was being 'held back' by the fact that the Scum YT was overcosted. The fact that the scum YT is overcosted is true, but you can just make a list with all your 'good stuff.'

Because 'ace exclusive' lists exist and do really well, the fact that Republic only had undercosted Delta-7s shouldn't have meant they didn't have a good list to run on its own. Obviously more diverse factions with lots of strong pieces can more easily make strong synergistic lists, and more diverse listbuilding is good for a game and faction, but it isn't true to say bad ships in a faction 'drag it down. A Delta exclusive list in theory could have carried Republic on its back, but that failed to materialize for the most part after the 7B and Regen got nerfed, which is interesting because of what the ships fundamentally are, even if there is a good reason for it.