See Title. See Poll.

https://strawpoll.com/2vhyrau9x

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

See Title. See Poll.

https://strawpoll.com/2vhyrau9x

Can’t vote, but yes.

I wish I could say both. I think the cost if fair on the initiative 3 and 4 pilots but once you get to 5 and 6 initiative it becomes auto include.

Depends.

All of the i3s and i4s feel about right, as does Anakin, strangely enough (mostly thanks to the large gap in his base cost). It's the i5s that feel like they might be too much value.

Obi-wan, yes, not so sure on the others.

Unpopular opinion: CLT should be free, raise Jedi prices.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Unpopular opinion: CLT should be free, raise Jedi prices.

I thought more choices are better*. So, letting a player choose between 3 instead of 2 configs is then better. Similarly with Boba and Slave 1.

The cases where it does not hold true are the auto includes, like sfoils, or where simplicity is even more important, like struts.

e: *a third exception is of course when it's not an actual choice. But I think it always will be one because of pilots like Ahsoka

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I thought more choices are better*. So, letting a player choose between 3 instead of 2 configs is then better. Similarly with Boba and Slave 1.

The cases where it does not hold true are the auto includes, like sfoils, or where simplicity is even more important, like struts.

e: *a third exception is of course when it's not an actual choice. But I think it always will be one because of pilots like Ahsoka

Sometimes heavily encouraging you to take SOME upgrade is useful, because it allows more of the power to be baked into the ability than the ship, but I don't really see that with Jedi, which already have so many abilities that the focus is on the base chasis, so they don't really need a 'mandatory extra ability' to 'complete' the ship.

Are there any lists out there that do something gross by forcing in a jedi 'under the gun' by ditching 2 points on them by not taking CLTs, that couldn't drop something elsewhere? The occurrence rate of Jedi and CLT is already almost 1:1...

16 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Are there any lists out there that do something gross by forcing in a jedi 'under the gun' by ditching 2 points on them by not taking CLTs, that couldn't drop something elsewhere?

4 CLT knights + Ahsoka without CLT springs to mind, although it's less common than the broadside variant I think

12 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The occurrence rate of Jedi and CLT is already almost 1:1...

Jedi and a configuration is almost 1:1. D7b still happens, but so does a Jedi without anything.

Which is my point:

As long as that is an option, an actual option, then it would be a mistake to force it. Adding points to pilots and removing them from configs forces more configs. But we want more diversity.

15 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Are there any lists out there that do something gross by forcing in a jedi 'under the gun' by ditching 2 points on them by not taking CLTs, that couldn't drop something elsewhere?

Kinda? There are certainly lists that force you to drop something. An astro, an upgrade, maybe even a different wingman; smaller bids are also an issue. That means in the case of CLT, the tendency should be to more points on configs and fewer on pilots - if both are actually options.

Support Jedi mean that it can be the case. Ahsoka is the prime example

I think maybe... yes.

• Jedi Knights: Another way to reframe this: is a CLT Jedi better than an X-Wing? They're the same price as a CAZ right now. You get a meaningful initiative bump, a bonus action through the Force (Calc or boost or roll), toughness is probably a little worse (A-Wings weaker than X-Wings) but you have that force so the gap gets shrunk. Downside is that the 3rd attack die is bullseye only. But you're a ship on a good position to take advantage of it. I really hesitate at the thought that they should breakpointed at 41, but I think they might be better than X-Wings. Like, if I could fly Leia + 3 CLT Jedi, I'd fly that instead of Leia + 3 X-Wings. Same probably holds for any other list with generic T-65s.
• The middle ranks seem mostly fair. CLT Barriss should probably be +3 over JK, but eh, she never saw play before. Lumi/Saesee/Ahsoka seem OK at 46, compared to TIE/v1s like Sev and 5Bro at 43/42. They'll still compare favorably to middle-rank X-Wings, but middle-rank X-Wings have always been bad, so eh.
• Obi/Plo: 49/53. That compares really favorably to The Grand Inquisitor at 52. They all have some means of getting bonus attack dice, and while TGI is easy, it's quite draining to have to use the Force in this way. Obi/Plo have better action flexibility, I'd think. They can double repo, or repo and lock, not just link to focus. They also have easier access to their flip moves, since they don't have to stress for their actions. That's a really under-rated part about what makes Jedi good. Linked action ships, no matter how good their dial, are mostly locked out of red moves. Jedi can still pull red moves, and will have at least a "calculate" when they do.
• Anakin at 67... Same price as Vader or Poe and nearly Fenn Rau. I'd rather have Fenn Rau, but that's just a playstyle preference thing. Oddly, I think the Init 6 Ace might be the most fairly priced CLT Jedi. =P

What would I like to see happen? Well, Actis is coming. Maybe CLT gets a price hike, leaves Hyperspace, but Hyperspace gets 7B. Not as scary if the only Aethersprite pilots keep would be the Init 3s and 4s (except Mace... Mace can take a hike). Then there's a really different vibe to the different ships. Instead of both the Actis and Aethersprite being 3 green, 2 red + bullseye ships, you'd have a 3/2/3/3 superiority jouster, but only at non-ace initiative levels.

Been playing around a little with Oddball (Homing Missiles) with 3 7B Jedi Knights, all with SynCon for some lock shuffling. Probably not a great list, but it's fun. Better actions and positioning than something like an E-Wing or a TIE Silencer, but you've given up that 3rd green die, so more vulnerable to chip damage. Pleasant little ship for 52 points. 61 for Saeseee/Lumi also seems pretty fair compared to 58 for Fanatical FOTP. Those low-to-mid 7Bs are probably pretty interesting and fair ships in their class, at least now that R2 Astromechs are appropriately priced for them. Init 5+ 7Bs seem still a little problematic, but the mid ones might be OK.

wow this forum is pretty dump... you raise the price of clt jedi and then the republic faction has exactly 0 competitive ships. CLT jedi is basically all the faction has now. Also what have CLT jedi actually won that would warrant a price hike. Also considering that their 3 best pilots just got an unwarranted (my opinion) price hike.

33 minutes ago, brownj23 said:

wow this forum is pretty dump...

I mean, yes, but not because of this post

33 minutes ago, brownj23 said:

you raise the price of clt jedi and then the republic faction has exactly 0 competitive ships. CLT jedi is basically all the faction has now.

They're not mutually exclusive. CLT jedi can both be undercosted and the only competitive ship in the faction. In fact I'd expect the more undercosted they are the more they're regarded as the only competitive ship.

33 minutes ago, brownj23 said:

Also what have CLT jedi actually won that would warrant a price hike. Also considering that their 3 best pilots just got an unwarranted (my opinion) price hike.

Ships don't have to win things to be undercosted.

1 hour ago, brownj23 said:

wow this forum is pretty dump... you raise the price of clt jedi and then the republic faction has exactly 0 competitive ships. CLT jedi is basically all the faction has now. Also what have CLT jedi actually won that would warrant a price hike. Also considering that their 3 best pilots just got an unwarranted (my opinion) price hike.

Its really just a matter of looking at Obi at 53 and Plo at 49 and wondering what exists in the game at that price point that is remotely equivalent. Its possible they are correct considering other discounted prices of things across factions. Either way Grand Inq and Soontir are the only real parallels I can think of at the moment. GI is substantially worse than both Obi/Plo at 52. Soontir is probably the only ship that can be compared to them at 54 which doesn't exactly mean much given his still obvious discounted price.

If you think strictly about cross format faction balance and accept whatever points are printed as correct than yea nothing looks off. Its when you start breaking down all the capabilities that those two Pilots in particular have that things get confusing. Not necessarily broken just eye brow raising.

Duchess at 45 and Ric at 45 are dramatically worse than Plo at 49. Obi is in a class of his own still with only Soontir to keep him company in terms of mobility, defensiveness, and offensive threat.

Usually besides ships like Soontir or CLT Obi/Plo you have to pay considerably more for what they bring to the table. Its true for Luke, i5 T70s, Tie Barons, Tie v1s, Fangs, just a super long list of ships in that 45-55 range or higher that look very odd if you compare them directly.

Again, not a huge problem by any means...im not really mad about CLT jedi at all, I play and enjoy them. Its a continued oddity of how force aces are priced and seemed like a question worth discussion. Im definitely not shouting for a nerf of CLT Jedi by any means. The lower Init CLT Jedi generally seem “fine” though their costs are also a little bizarre compared to a few things in the high 30s/low 40s.

Mainly just questioning Obi/Plos cost is all and wondering if others have experienced the same kind of extremely reliable offensive fire power, full ace mobility, and defensive token stacks as I have.

I know when I spend about the same amt of pts or a bit more in every other faction besides Empire I dont get ships nearly as capable.

Unless it results in an NPE scenario, which I think it is fair to say the Delta-7 is at huge risk of creating just.... just constantly.

But I can't think of anything where dropping the CLT actually enables something stupid right now, which would be the only real reason to want to shove the points out of it and into the base ship. I don't see anyone sneaking in an extra non CLT jedi or anything into lists at the moment. It isn't like I want naked Jedi to be better, its just really clear CLT is already a borderline auto-include, even if non CLT see experimentation. Forcing it onto the ship doesn't change much besides remove a hypothetical choice that doesn't seem like a problem as long as the ship is really solidly distant from two seperate break points of 41 and 33.

1 hour ago, brownj23 said:

wow this forum is pretty dump... you raise the price of clt jedi and then the republic faction has exactly 0 competitive ships. CLT jedi is basically all the faction has now. Also what have CLT jedi actually won that would warrant a price hike. Also considering that their 3 best pilots just got an unwarranted (my opinion) price hike.

The Delta-7 is just a super problematic ship in general. On multiple occassions it has enabled some nonsense that, while not OP, pushed X-wing to stupid places that forced FFG to either completely gut the Republic faction because they were entirely leaning on the Delta which would eat a points nerf globally, or nerf a mechanic for everyone because it was good on the Delta (Ex: Regen Jedi resulted in a global nerf to repair astromechs), and this happened despite not stellar winrates. Highly mobile arc dodgers all with Vader's ability and force points allows for... silly play that isn't fun to participate in or watch when it can realistically pop something and then Sir Robin the entire match.

51 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its really just a matter of looking at Obi at 53 and Plo at 49 and wondering what exists in the game at that price point that is remotely equivalent

I remember people trying to defend 66 point 7B Obi because Republic was low winrate and didn't have a lot of ship choice so its ships 'needed to be more powerful.'

I do get the logic, and its clear Republic is in a spot where any of its lists getting hit knocks it to square 0, but they are clearly super hard to cost because 'easy access to force' is just super rough to balance, and its clones heavily infringe on Rebels in terms of design, and it wouldn't be good to make a ship just a better version of a weaker ship in a weaker faction by costing it less, so the Republic needs to at least mix some Jedi in to make sense as a faction in terms of mechanical identity.

I think if the Acits displays a similar problem to the Delta-7 where it just is impossible to (finely) tune a 'good' jedi in a ship that can actually use the force points well, we will see the rules for force seriously change.

9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The cases where it does not hold true are the auto includes, like sfoils, or where simplicity is even more important, like struts.

This is more or less how I see CLT. It's nearly an autoinclude anyway (I haven't seen a Delta-7 without it in ... ever?) and even if it weren't you can't price it so Obi and Plo want it or don't by the same amount. Two configs are better than one. Three isn't always better than two, especially when it mostly doesn't exist.

To the question: CLT isn't undercosted, but CLT Obi-Wan probably is, and some others might be (though not by much).

That's more or less how I stand on it at the moment.

I think the total cost for just about any jedi + CLT feels about right. However, I think the points shpuld shift toward CLT more. Bring CLT up 2 pts and all jedi down 2 pts. Just so it doesnt feel like such an auto include. Now jedi can be supporters like Lumi, or have a medium offensive build with CLT or all out offense with 7B. Too hot of a take?

CLT Lumi/Saesee - 46
CLT Mace - 49

base Grevious - 44
attackshuttle Ezra - 40
Turr Phennir - 44
Ved Foslo - 44

:thonk:

36 minutes ago, svelok said:

CLT Lumi/Saesee - 46
CLT Mace - 49

base Grevious - 44
attackshuttle Ezra - 40
Turr Phennir - 44
Ved Foslo - 44

:thonk:

Maybe everyone else is just overcosted.

I like the idea of CLT up 2 and Jedi down 2, Lumi and others have abilities worth taking without CLT. Overall I don’t really feel they are under costed, but we may see points and HS legality change with the faction getting 3 new ship options by the end of the year. More list building choices will do republic a world of good.

I do think a change to force will eventually happen, my preference is for a limit on only being able to spend 1 force charge per attack/defense roll, which makes a big difference and would make shooting at force users a little less frustrating.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

I do think a change to force will eventually happen, my preference is for a limit on only being able to spend 1 force charge per attack/defense roll, which makes a big difference and would make shooting at force users a little less frustrating.

It'll barely make a difference, but seems fair enough. Wouldn't make any difference to a generic Jedi Knight, and rarely would even on Kylo.

I view this as a "might as well through it in" nerf, something which takes a bit of the edge off, rather than a really impactful change.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

I do think a change to force will eventually happen

I would very much take the under on that bet

Way I see it, the 'default' use of force being so strong causes a lot of problems, from making it hard to have force using crew, to force power upgrades struggling to be relevant. At the end of the day it just is slapping a calculate into your hand each turn. A once an attack limit probably isn't enough to cause any realistic change, considering how often its used as a 1 a turn calculate drip feed anyway. Maybe once a turn, if they were really struggling with characters who could bank it, but force has been problematic on non-Jedi too, and that creates weirdness around Luke who doesn't have a default way to use force regeneration in that case.

Some people talk about requiring a completed maneuver and not getting force back on stress, or only getting force back on focus, which would help the 'You always have way too many mods' problem but wouldn't solve the issue with what force fundamentally does to dice probability, especially defensively. Another idea is making it a re-roll effect, which is dangerous because it would in theory let you double mod defense, but it means that defensively when your not focused force is far weaker.

But I do think it is far more likely we get a more mild change than a big one, regardless of where force 'should' be.

No

54 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

rather than a really impactful change.

Definitely many more impactful things they could do, and it certainly impacts the pilots with the most force without touching the likes of the generic Jedi (which aren’t an issue imo). I see Anakin, Obi, Vader, etc... as being the biggest problem force pilots anyway.

One other reason I like that change is that it’s really easy to add to the rules without causing much/any confusion. While keeping open the opportunity to bring in other restrictions later on as needed.