So last thursday i played my first game of X wing since February (!) and i finally got the chance to try out the Tie Baron which i had gotten back in April. I played 2 games, with these 2 lists:

"Holo" (53)
Squad Leader (12)
Biohexacrypt Codes (1)

Ship total: 66 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 2

Major Vonreg (55)
Daredevil (2)

Ship total: 57 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 2

"Blackout" (63)
Trick Shot (4)

Ship total: 67 Half Points: 34 Threshold: 3


Total: 190

This first one is kind of a meme list, where we do the «Super Blackout» thing with the help of BioCodes/SquadLeader Holo to help with the actions from a safe distance. Played against a Jan Ors/Wedge/Ghost Hera list and dismantled it by going after each target at a time (both Jan and Wedge went from 100 to 0 in a single engagement each, and burning down Hera after that was easy, since i baited her into a debris field) while making the engagements suboptimal for the opponent. This list is fun, but not what i want to talk about.

"Holo" (53)
Daredevil (2)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2

Major Vonreg (55)
Daredevil (2)

Ship total: 57 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 2

Kylo Ren (76)
Ship total: 76 Half Points: 38 Threshold: 3


Total: 188

This list is much more simple: we have three independent aces, where Vonreg is in a solo mission to flank, Kylo tanks the enemy's fire with the help of Holo sponsored evades while Holo itself skirts around the engagement area looking for some potshots. If the first few engagements work out well, Aces will do Ace things and hopefully close out the game nicely.

However, the game went completely different from the plan: I was playing against a 4 ship Resistance list (Kaz, Lulo, Tali and a loaded Nien) and i made the poor decision of deploying my ships together to try and draw the enemy to the obstacle field we had setup. This ultimately led to Holo and Kylo getting chain-blocked by a slamming Kaz while the A-wings surprised me by quickly closing out on them while that was happening. I was fortunate enough to have hot naked green dice and ended up not losing a single ship during the first engagements. The highlight of the game for me, however, was Vonreg's one-on-one with Nien, where Vonreg managed to dodge Nien's firing Arc and then had a range 1 shot thanks to a Daredevil boost. After that, Vonreg was able to stick to Nien's behind and started melting him down very quickly. Opponent ended up conceding out of frustration due to not being able to destroy any of my ships after his very well-planned blocks.

With all of that being said, I have a question for all of you FO list builders: Why do most people put Proud Tradition over Daredevil on their Barons?

Daredevil seems to be the better option for ships that are looking to be flanking and want to avoid blocks, and i think that the Barons don't want to be jousting 99% of the time due to their fragility, so i find it strange that i find many more PT builds than DD ones.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

It's mostly just Holo who sees Proud Tradition, since they can do a red move and focus, then offload the stress. I don't think I'd put it on someone else, but maybe they could deal reasonably well with red focus if it got flipped, due to good blues and not needing to link actions after the focus... Anyhow, Holo is a niche trick, but pretty potent as a lone ace with some swarmers around. Not sure it's the right tactic for a triple ace list.

Vonreg has mostly run Daredevil, and it's a sleeper pick on Holo. It does add a solid amount of mobility, and Holo can offload this stress as well, so probably pretty great overall. I can see it being something where it's best just to use whatever you're personally most skilled with, whatever fits your playstyle more, and the moves you want to dial in.

I've also seen some folks suggest Outmaneuver on Vonreg. Also seems potent in the right list (which might not be this one).

Also, just remembered this blog post from PhilGC a while back.

Vonreg/Holo/Ember all with Daredevil and Dueterium Power Cells. Good? Hard to say. Sweet , to be sure.

https://suchanxwinghipster.wordpress.com/2020/07/05/once-more-with-theme-ing-the-red-daredevils/

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Also, just remembered this blog post from PhilGC a while back.

Vonreg/Holo/Ember all with Daredevil and Dueterium Power Cells. Good? Hard to say. Sweet , to be sure.

https://suchanxwinghipster.wordpress.com/2020/07/05/once-more-with-theme-ing-the-red-daredevils/

So my issue with a triple Baron list is that they fold like paper. The archetype i play the most is triple aces, and i usually need one that can deal with a bit of jousting (Ric, Vader, Whisper, etc.). I'm not good enough to arc dodge with all 3 ships at the same time, and i personally don't know many who can either, so i don't think it's a «git gud» type of issue. The idea is sweet though, so that's nice.

Also, i literally only have 2x Barons + 1x Silencer for FO, since i only started buying into the faction once the baron was released

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

It's mostly just Holo who sees Proud Tradition, since they can do a red move and focus, then offload the stress. I don't think I'd put it on someone else, but maybe they could deal reasonably well with red focus if it got flipped, due to good blues and not needing to link actions after the focus... Anyhow, Holo is a niche trick, but pretty potent as a lone ace with some swarmers around. Not sure it's the right tactic for a triple ace list.

Vonreg has mostly run Daredevil, and it's a sleeper pick on Holo. It does add a solid amount of mobility, and Holo can offload this stress as well, so probably pretty great overall. I can see it being something where it's best just to use whatever you're personally most skilled with, whatever fits your playstyle more, and the moves you want to dial in.

I've also seen some folks suggest Outmaneuver on Vonreg. Also seems potent in the right list (which might not be this one).

I still don't really understand the appeal of PT, but it might just be because i'm only thinking of the triple ace perspective. I think the Baron is pretty ok at clearing stress during activation, so I don't see the appeal of dumping it to a ship who might have more trouble.

Also, this might be something that is not common sense, but i almost never dial in red moves on Interceptors (the only exception would be Kylo and ocasionally jedi, i guess) because the advantage of these platforms is in their action efficiency, which is (usually) wasted when doing those. With daredevil, Barons can also turn 90º while still getting an action in between.

So the thing about Holo in the triple aces is that, if the game is going well, only one of your ships is getting shot. Holo ca make sure that ship has enough green tokens to defend,or can just pass his negative tokens to teammates that have an easier time clearing them or a focus to a teammate with a better shot in need for modifiers. Overall, i think that Holo has great potential as a «support» ace that is pretty good at managing the token dynamic of the squad, while still doing most of what Vonreg is doing.

Outmaneuver is a pretty neat idea for Vonreg, but personally, i think it's a bit of an overkill. You can get 4 dice double modded shots with a good flank, so I don't think having the extra dice reduction is necessary to push damage. What worries me however, is how easy it is to blow up a blocked baron. I'm sure you don't need dd to fly a baron, but it makes it so much harder to block, while not having the issue that soontir has with it of losing one of his actions. And, maybe most importantly of all, it's just a lot of fun playing around with dd

Also, what type of list would you think that Outmaneuver Vonreg is the right call, and why is it not this one?

Thank you for the feedback!

1 hour ago, LeMightyASP said:

So my issue with a triple Baron list is that they fold like paper. The archetype i play the most is triple aces, and i usually need one that can deal with a bit of jousting (Ric, Vader, Whisper, etc.). I'm not good enough to arc dodge with all 3 ships at the same time, and i personally don't know many who can either, so i don't think it's a «git gud» type of issue. The idea is sweet though, so that's nice.

I mean, it's a PhilGC list. Sweet if you can pull it off, but wicked hard. I'm personally more likely to fly Kylo. Just food for thought, mostly, the article probably has a lot of judgement calls on Daredevil in the batrep.

1 hour ago, LeMightyASP said:

Also, this might be something that is not common sense, but i almost never dial in red moves on Interceptors (the only exception would be Kylo and ocasionally jedi, i guess) because the advantage of these platforms is in their action efficiency, which is (usually) wasted when doing those. With daredevil, Barons can also turn 90º while still getting an action in between.

I guess some folks just like flip moves. Barons are one of few interceptors that can actually S-Loop or K-Turn on demand, because it doesn't normally start it's turn stressed. A large part of why someone like Soontir seldom flip-moves is that he's often stressed from last round. Barons can just do it. Meanwhile, after the flip, Proud lets you take a focus, which is the other part of why someone like Soontir seldom flips. If you Lock + Daredevil, or Red-Move-And-Focus, that's about the same in terms of dice mods, and you've done something interesting in terms of position.

I dunno what more to say than it seems totally reasonable for someone to prefer one kind of movement trick to the other. And if we look at the numbers, far more folks prefer Daredevil to Proud on Barons in general.

1 hour ago, LeMightyASP said:

Also, what type of list would you think that Outmaneuver Vonreg is the right call, and why is it not this one?

Mostly I was just figuring this list is deliberately investing heavily in bid. But as I look at it, maybe 8 points is still enough.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, it's a PhilGC list. Sweet if you can pull it off, but wicked hard. I'm personally more likely to fly Kylo. Just food for thought, mostly, the article probably has a lot of judgement calls on Daredevil in the batrep.

Yeah, after reading the article, i realise that his list was really trying to avoid the joust, but still had at least 1 ship taking heat every turn, so it didn't seem very efficient. Still a very close game, considering how stacked the odds were against FO. The judgement calls on dd that you're talking about are the reason why i think the upgrade is good and has a lot of ground to explore.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess some folks just like flip moves. Barons are one of few interceptors that can actually S-Loop or K-Turn on demand, because it doesn't normally start it's turn stressed. A large part of why someone like Soontir seldom flip-moves is that he's often stressed from last round. Barons can just do it. Meanwhile, after the flip, Proud lets you take a focus, which is the other part of why someone like Soontir seldom flips. If you Lock + Daredevil, or Red-Move-And-Focus, that's about the same in terms of dice mods, and you've done something interesting in terms of position.

Fair enough, definetely a preference call here, but i still think you can milk more out of dd if you're trying to be as efficient as possible, but if people like k-turning, pt is definetely better.

I also think another reason why Soontir doesn't sloop or k-turn as often is due to the fact that he gets locked to that position, missing the i6 repositioning shenanigans.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Mostly I was just figuring this list is deliberately investing heavily in bid. But as I look at it, maybe 8 points is still enough.

Yeah sure, bid is nice, but to me this is more about what the upgrade brings to the list. DD is quite an unique effect and i don't think that a list with 3 ships that can double mod attacks by themselves need a damage boost.

With all that being said, however, if the baron ever got a second talent slot, outmaneuver would definetely be my pick.

Thanks again for the feedback!

I’ve been playing FO aces (Vonreg/Holo/Kylo) for 18 games already, with amazing results. 14-4 is where I’m at now, winning my last 2 tournaments (10 and 8 players).

You can see a few batreps I did with pics here .

In extended I use pattern annalyzer in Holo and Sense on Kylo to help with the lack of bid (my list goes to 198p).

In Hyperspace I have a bigger bid (just realized it’s the same list you posted above, but with PT instead of DD) as I cut off those 2 upgrades. Proud tradition plus pattern annalyzer allows Holo to have focus evade the turn he is going to get shot, and that 5k allows him to keep applying pressure on enemies. After trying that out, I would never use any other thing on Holo.

11 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

Also, what type of list would you think that Outmaneuver Vonreg is the right call, and why is it not this one?

Thank you for the feedback!

Antonio Veiga (I think he's around the forum as well) had a good run with Vonreg (Outmaneuver/Power Cells), alongside 3 Zetas and a Lt Rivas, back in February at the UK SOS.

I tried it out myself and enjoyed it quite a bit, although I've also found that DD Vonreg is ridiculously good value (when the Major doesn't spontaneosuly combust from a stray r3 shot, that is). I then began trying out some Holo + Friends, which seemed to be a bit more promising. Having him with a bunch of SFs and FOs seemed to be quite fun. I never managed to actually settle down on the correct ratio between FOs and SFs though

I've been out of the game for a while now (with the odd online match) but I'd be curious to hear more about your thoughts on the chassis itself. I never got around to think about the generics either. Kinda stuck with both Vonreg or Holo and I'm not sure if with the recent points update it would be worth revisiting them for just more bodies on the table.

I find the chassis itself to be quite interesting, although the bloody thrusters make me take even longer to decide what to do on the table

59 minutes ago, RoockieBoy said:

I’ve been playing FO aces (Vonreg/Holo/Kylo) for 18 games already, with amazing results. 14-4 is where I’m at now, winning my last 2 tournaments (10 and 8 players).

You can see a few batreps I did with pics here .

Wow, those are great results! Definitely great to see there are people out there that are having success with the archetype. Will definitely check out the batrep!

1 hour ago, RoockieBoy said:

In extended I use pattern annalyzer in Holo and Sense on Kylo to help with the lack of bid (my list goes to 198p).

In Hyperspace I have a bigger bid (just realized it’s the same list you posted above, but with PT instead of DD) as I cut off those 2 upgrades. Proud tradition plus pattern annalyzer allows Holo to have focus evade the turn he is going to get shot, and that 5k allows him to keep applying pressure on enemies. After trying that out, I would never use any other thing on Holo.

It's very interesting that you opt to go for bid or to just go for sense depending on the format. My experience with sense tells me that it's better suited to lists that are trying to get blocks off, and since that's something that I don't do often with these types of lists, I usually end up choosing the bid route.

PT + PA make a ton of sense (heh) together, that's something I missed entirely. Usually I'm against the barons getting shot, but if there's focus + evade on the turn you flip, I would be much more comfortable pulling that move. Will have to try this idea, even though the leaner DD build still seems better in my head

Thank you very much for the feedback!

1 hour ago, bahourmat said:

Antonio Veiga (I think he's around the forum as well) had a good run with Vonreg (Outmaneuver/Power Cells), alongside 3 Zetas and a Lt Rivas, back in February at the UK SOS.

I tried it out myself and enjoyed it quite a bit, although I've also found that DD Vonreg is ridiculously good value (when the Major doesn't spontaneosuly combust from a stray r3 shot, that is). I then began trying out some Holo + Friends, which seemed to be a bit more promising. Having him with a bunch of SFs and FOs seemed to be quite fun. I never managed to actually settle down on the correct ratio between FOs and SFs though

Outmaneuver makes a ton more sense in a list where all your other ships only have 2 base red dice. The mini swarm + ace is something I've tried in other factions with relative success (Vader + Tie fighters, 7B Ani + Torrents, Whisper + passive sensors x1s, etc.) and the FO has a lot of interesting directions it could go with it (Holo managing tokens, Sense Kylo setting up blocks, outmaneuver Vonregs deleting ships by itself). That being said, I do only have the 2x barons + 1x silencer for now, so the chassis on these lists are not changing.

1 hour ago, bahourmat said:

I've been out of the game for a while now (with the odd online match) but I'd be curious to hear more about your thoughts on the chassis itself. I never got around to think about the generics either. Kinda stuck with both Vonreg or Holo and I'm not sure if with the recent points update it would be worth revisiting them for just more bodies on the table.

So the thing about the barons which I haven't touched on yet is the way their thrusters work. Having to choose between a strain or a deplete makes you really bad at either attacking or defending, which is why I don't think you'd naturally want to be in a jousting position with it. The PT + PA Holo build that RoockieBoy mentioned gets around this pretty well, but you can't realistically do red moves the whole game, so you'd still end up being faced with the same dilema.

I haven't looked a ton at the generics, but I think that it would be a similar case to the generic interceptor's position in the empire. Initiative is a huge deal in these platforms. The Tie Baron is the only ship (that I can think of) that is able to focus and target lock in the same turn without help, which holds some good value. The double repositioning also means that it is a pretty decent blocker. Sadly, the 2 downsides are too big, especially when combined: repositioning at i3 means they are not able to avoid shots; they still die really fast, and at i3 that might mean they never get off a shot at all.

It's still pretty hilarious against other swarm lists, where your generics basically behave like Vonregs himself, but especially now that the sienar-jaemus engineer is below 50 points, there is no real reason to take this ship over it.

2 hours ago, bahourmat said:

I find the chassis itself to be quite interesting, although the bloody thrusters make me take even longer to decide what to do on the table

Yes, so much this! I felt the same way, especially in the Blackout game, and at some point I was sweating profusely just thinking of all the variables that went into how I needed to fly my list.

But honestly, this is what makes triple aces so fun to fly for me