So with point adjustments coming, I know we all have opinions about who and what should be adjusted. In this conversation Emperor Palpatine will certainly be brought up. While it’s probably unanimous that he should get a reduction in points for his conditional ability- I suggest going the other way- Making him a true menace. While his ability is pretty thematic, I feel for those points it needs to be more dreadful. I propose keeping his ability as written and add the following ( good thing we are getting larger text boxes):

After deploying fleets, place four command dials each set for a different command. At the beginning of the ship phase you make discard one of these command dials. If you do for the remainder of the turn if a enemy ship resolves the chosen command as a dial it resolves the effect as if a token had been spent instead.

This might actually make the Dark lord if the Sith worth 35-40 points ( as the most powerful admiral should be). I think this truly represents the emperor’s power and control over others.

thoughts?

He got a Small boost last wave by adding a Salvo token to his supply. A small point reduction would be appreciated.

I have tried him a few times and it is difficult to get more than 3 defence tokens discarded per game. You also get some benefit when enemies don’t spend a type of token for a whole turn.

My main problem with Palpatine is that officer Palpatine is so good for only 3 points. Put him on an SSD with GTs & Overload pulse and your enemy has great difficulty firing at you.

I agree that the Emperor Palpatine's Commander card needs to be revised in some way, either by reducing its points cost or modifying his ability.

TBH I don't think reducing Palpatine's post cost will be worthwhile because his ability is flawed; also, it wouldn't be thematic if he was one of the cheaper Imperial Commanders. If anything Palpatine should be the most expensive Imperial Commander and his ability should be absolutely devastating to the enemy, making players truly terrified to go up against an Imperial player that has chosen Palpatine as their Commander.

I like @Back Seat Admiral 's idea, however, I don't think Palpatine using Command Dials placed on his card to downgrade the opposing player's matching dial into a token is severe enough -- especially compared to forcing an enemy ship or squadron discard a defense token. It makes more sense if the opposing player goes against the Emperor's will, their fleet is punished for their insolence, similar to how Palpatine's ability works now.

This is how I'd modify Emperor Palpatine's Commander ability:

"After deploying fleets, place 1 defense token of each type on this card. If an enemy ship or squadron spends a defense token during its Spend Defense Tokens step, you may exhaust the matching token on this card to force the enemy ship or squadron to discard the token."

Just to be clear, the defender's defense token isn't cancelled by Palpatine's ability; its ability is used, but then the token must be discarded.

This card's effect can be used multiple times per attack, meaning that if the defending ship chooses to spend a Brace, Redirect, and Contain, Palpatine may exhaust those 3 tokens to force that defending ship to discard its 3 tokens.

Emperor Palpatine's revised card will have the same symbols as the new T-Series Tactical Droid card, with the Exhaust symbol (so it isn't automatically refreshed during the Status Phase of every round) and the red bar on the red side that specifies spending a Command Dial to ready the defense tokens on the card.

This allows Palpatine to force the opposing player to discard their ship's spent defense token(s) whenever the attacking player chooses to exhaust the matching token(s). Rather than telegraphing which defense token that Palpatine will target at the start of each round, thereby allowing the opposing player to adjust their actions accordingly, the opposing player won't know when or if Palpatine's ability will be used against them. Palpatine will effectively get into the opponent's head and make them fear to use any defense tokens, which is insidiously thematic for Emperor Palpatine!

I think between the requirement of a Command Dial to ready the card's defense tokens and only one of each defense token being discarded per round, my suggestion for modifying Emperor Palpatine's Commander card is balanced and fair. I don't think it's necessary to even adjust Palpatine's point cost, because 35 points is fair for this modified ability.

3 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

"After deploying fleets, place 1 defense token of each type on this card. If an enemy ship or squadron spends a defense token during its Spend Defense Tokens step, you may exhaust the matching token on this card to force the enemy ship or squadron to discard the token."

This is turbo broken. Like un-balancable by points turbo broken.

if you want it workable into something that would not break the game, switch it so that Palpatine has to exhaust the defense tokens on his card before the spend defense token step. Then we can start adding limits so it isn’t Still busted.

Otherwise what you wrote is like giving every ship in your fleet Access to six copies of a supercharged Intel officer.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

This is turbo broken. Like un-balancable by points turbo broken.

if you want it workable into something that would not break the game, switch it so that Palpatine has to exhaust the defense tokens on his card before the spend defense token step. Then we can start adding limits so it isn’t Still busted.

Otherwise what you wrote is like giving every ship in your fleet Access to six copies of a supercharged Intel officer.

Do the math:

Emperor Palpatine = 35 points

Intel Officer = 7 points

35 / 7 = 5

Therefore, Emperor Palpatine would be like having Intel Officer on 5 ships, only better, like a Commander should be. However, the flagship must discard its Command Dial to refresh Palpatine's ability, whereas Intel Officer is readied every round during the Status Phase.

Why would it help if you had to exhaust Palpatine's defense tokens before the defending ship decided what defense tokens to spend? That would just be telegraphing what Palpatine planned to do so the defending player will know if they spend that defense token, they'll have to discard it, which is exactly how Emperor Palpatine currently works, which is why he's so ineffective, and is the reason why Imperial players rarely use him. Also, what you're suggesting would basically work exactly how Intel Officer works: You tell your opponent what defense token you're targeting before they choose what defense tokens to spend, making them less likely to spend the targeted token -- unless spending and discarding it will save the ship from destruction from that attack. Palpatine should work differently than Intel Officer because he's the Emperor and a Sith Lord! He should instill fear and doubt in his enemies. The whole idea is that the defending player won't know what Palpatine is planning or when he'll spring his trap. It would be thematic to make the opposing player afraid to spend defense tokens.

I'll concede that for the sake of balance, Palpatine shouldn't be able to exhaust more than one of his defense tokens per attack. I admit that making a ship discard all its spent tokens in one attack would be OP'd.

Regardless, I'd much rather make Palpatine more powerful and therefore useful, justifying increasing his points cost to perhaps 40, than have his ability remain the same and decrease his points cost, which I doubt will make Imperial players use Palpatine more often, because it's his weak ability that is the problem. I bet that even if Emperor Palpatine was reduced to only 20 points, more Imperial players would choose Romodi than Palpatine. The idea is to fix Palpatine, not sully his character by making him embarrassingly cheap.

Palp is Palpable though

10 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

I agree that the Emperor Palpatine's Commander card needs to be revised in some way, either by reducing its points cost or modifying his ability.

TBH I don't think reducing Palpatine's post cost will be worthwhile because his ability is flawed; also, it wouldn't be thematic if he was one of the cheaper Imperial Commanders. If anything Palpatine should be the most expensive Imperial Commander and his ability should be absolutely devastating to the enemy, making players truly terrified to go up against an Imperial player that has chosen Palpatine as their Commander.

I like @Back Seat Admiral 's idea, however, I don't think Palpatine using Command Dials placed on his card to downgrade the opposing player's matching dial into a token is severe enough -- especially compared to forcing an enemy ship or squadron discard a defense token. It makes more sense if the opposing player goes against the Emperor's will, their fleet is punished for their insolence, similar to how Palpatine's ability works now.

This is how I'd modify Emperor Palpatine's Commander ability:

"After deploying fleets, place 1 defense token of each type on this card. If an enemy ship or squadron spends a defense token during its Spend Defense Tokens step, you may exhaust the matching token on this card to force the enemy ship or squadron to discard the token."

Just to be clear, the defender's defense token isn't cancelled by Palpatine's ability; its ability is used, but then the token must be discarded.

This card's effect can be used multiple times per attack, meaning that if the defending ship chooses to spend a Brace, Redirect, and Contain, Palpatine may exhaust those 3 tokens to force that defending ship to discard its 3 tokens.

Emperor Palpatine's revised card will have the same symbols as the new T-Series Tactical Droid card, with the Exhaust symbol (so it isn't automatically refreshed during the Status Phase of every round) and the red bar on the red side that specifies spending a Command Dial to ready the defense tokens on the card.

This allows Palpatine to force the opposing player to discard their ship's spent defense token(s) whenever the attacking player chooses to exhaust the matching token(s). Rather than telegraphing which defense token that Palpatine will target at the start of each round, thereby allowing the opposing player to adjust their actions accordingly, the opposing player won't know when or if Palpatine's ability will be used against them. Palpatine will effectively get into the opponent's head and make them fear to use any defense tokens, which is insidiously thematic for Emperor Palpatine!

I think between the requirement of a Command Dial to ready the card's defense tokens and only one of each defense token being discarded per round, my suggestion for modifying Emperor Palpatine's Commander card is balanced and fair. I don't think it's necessary to even adjust Palpatine's point cost, because 35 points is fair for this modified ability.

I really like the thematics of your idea. It is way to powerful though. It would ruin a ship the first time you get a full arc of dice on the target. Use defence tokens once or basically be severely damage or destroyed on a good roll.

Limit to one token per activation I think and spend a dial to ready one tocken per round.

I think I’d prefer a points increase & a better effect rather than lowering the cost of the existing card.

6 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

Do the math:

Emperor Palpatine = 35 points

Intel Officer = 7 points

35 / 7 = 5

Therefore, Emperor Palpatine would be like having Intel Officer on 5 ships, only better, like a Commander should be. However, the flagship must discard its Command Dial to refresh Palpatine's ability, whereas Intel Officer is readied every round during the Status Phase.

Why would it help if you had to exhaust Palpatine's defense tokens before the defending ship decided what defense tokens to spend? That would just be telegraphing what Palpatine planned to do so the defending player will know if they spend that defense token, they'll have to discard it, which is exactly how Emperor Palpatine currently works, which is why he's so ineffective, and is the reason why Imperial players rarely use him. Also, what you're suggesting would basically work exactly how Intel Officer works: You tell your opponent what defense token you're targeting before they choose what defense tokens to spend, making them less likely to spend the targeted token -- unless spending and discarding it will save the ship from destruction from that attack. Palpatine should work differently than Intel Officer because he's the Emperor and a Sith Lord! He should instill fear and doubt in his enemies. The whole idea is that the defending player won't know what Palpatine is planning or when he'll spring his trap. It would be thematic to make the opposing player afraid to spend defense tokens.

I'll concede that for the sake of balance, Palpatine shouldn't be able to exhaust more than one of his defense tokens per attack. I admit that making a ship discard all its spent tokens in one attack would be OP'd.

Regardless, I'd much rather make Palpatine more powerful and therefore useful, justifying increasing his points cost to perhaps 40, than have his ability remain the same and decrease his points cost, which I doubt will make Imperial players use Palpatine more often, because it's his weak ability that is the problem. I bet that even if Emperor Palpatine was reduced to only 20 points, more Imperial players would choose Romodi than Palpatine. The idea is to fix Palpatine, not sully his character by making him embarrassingly cheap.

Ok.

So how would spending a command dial during status phase work? Because where or not you use the dial, it goes to the same place once a ship’s activation is done. The ship card. Discarding a command dial as you wrote it would mean you are also reducing the command value of the flagship as there isn’t some existing mechanic. If you just put the text on the card saying when activating, discard command dial to refresh a token, it works better mechanically. But doing it that way also means the full brunt of Palpatine can be used twice in a turn If you work your activations right.

You were making Palpatine into 6 (max number of defense tokens a ship has AFAIK) copies of a super intel officer. Part of intel officer’s balance is the timing. It’s still a very good officer when you are choosing And exhausting before They spend defense tokens. The defender now has a choice to work around intel officer or accept the discard if they must use the critical defense token.

Moving the timing means that the defender no longer has counter play. Just a written “screw you” that they can’t counter. And I mean cannot counter. The other player has no mechanic, no abilities that can force you (the Palp player) into suboptimal choices. They just have to spend defense tokens and accept that they have no idea whether or not they’ll lose defense tokens. That isn’t fun nor balanced.

A single copy of an intel officer that triggers during the spending of defense tokens is wayyy more powerful than a regular intel officer. You’re proposal gives a pay single ship access to 6 on a sideboard. So let’s call Super Intel officer a 10 point crew because we are being conservative. That’s 60 points worth of them. 120 if you use a mechanically sound method of discard command dial to get refresh

Also, conceptually, why would Palpatine be a powerful commander? The only 2 fleet actions he is ever in command of Onscreen were resounding defeats.

His power was in subtle changes and playing the long game. In legends, His most effective buff to the fleet was battle meditation. So thematically, his ability should be something more akin the increasing the effectiveness of every command issued.

5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Palp is Palpable though

To expand. The keys are Decimators and Arqs. On the turn you pop the scatter token Decimators with three black anti squad dice will batter their way through enemy squads. In the turn you pop brace Arqs with CF will decimate enemy braces across the board.

Palp is all about coordination. You need to hit the enemy all at the same time. This is a juxtaposition against usual fleet dynamics and last first play styles.

I wouldn't be opposed to a points reduction, but I don't like the idea of drastically changing a commander's ability (and I'm glad FFG isn't in the habit of doing it) just because people don't take that commander very often. Not to mention if you make him too powerful he could be broken with Cataclysm.

Palpatine wasn't a popular commander in last season of Primes, but he did okay. A Palpatine list won a recent Vassal tournament.

4 hours ago, Church14 said:

So how would spending a command dial during status phase work? Because where or not you use the dial, it goes to the same place once a ship’s activation is done. The ship card. Discarding a command dial as you wrote it would mean you are also reducing the command value of the flagship as there isn’t some existing mechanic. If you just put the text on the card saying when activating, discard command dial to refresh a token, it works better mechanically. But doing it that way also means the full brunt of Palpatine can be used twice in a turn If you work your activations right.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm using the new T-Series Tactical Droid upgrade card as a reference: It uses any Command Dial to ready the card.

The Command Dial isn't spent during the Status Phase, it would be discarded when the flagship activates. The flagship's top dial would be revealed as normal, then the player may discard it to ready any exhausted defense tokens on Emperor Palpatine's Commander card. This could happen at any time during the Ship Phase, whenever the player chooses to activate their flagship.

Example:

The Imperial player could choose to activate their other ships before the flagship, attack opposing ships, and exhaust Palpatine's tokens to discard the defenders' tokens. The Imperial player activates their flagship last, reveals the ship's top dial, and chooses to discard the dial to ready Palpatine's tokens. The flagship attacks and moves without using a dial. At the start of the next round, the Imperial player can use Palpatine's tokens again.

Alternatively, if the Imperial player activated their flagship first, then exhausted Palpatine's tokens using their other ships and squadrons, they could end the round with all of Palpatine's tokens exhausted and they couldn't be readied that round. At the start of the next round, the Imperial player could activate their flagship first, discard its dial, and ready Palpatine's tokens. Or, if they didn't activate the flagship first, the Imperial ships would either have to refrain from spending Palpatine's exhausted tokens, or they'd have to discard tokens to use his Palpatine's ability, and those tokens would be gone.

Yes, Palpatine's ability could be used twice with the same token if the another Imp ship activated, attacked, and exhausted the Brace token to discard an enemy ship's Brace; then the flagship activated, discarded its revealed dial to ready Palpatine's tokens, and the flagship or another Imp ship attacked and exhausted the Brace token again. However, it balances out because that would require not exhausting Palpatine's token either the previous round or the next round (unless the flagship activated first that round and readied Palpatine's tokens). So yes, the Imperial player could gain an advantage one round if they activated their ships right.

Palpatine could "double token" 3 rounds per match, maximum. But more realistically, only 2 rounds, because it's rare for all ships to be in attack range in Round 2, and it would require an Imp ship to attack and exhaust a token, the flagship to activate and ready Palpatine's tokens, and either the flagship to be in range to attack and exhaust that token again, or subsequent Imp ships to activate, attack, and exhaust the token again. That's highly unlikely to happen in Round 2. It's more plausible that the last Imp ship to activate in Round 2 could be in range to attack and exhaust one of Palp's tokens. But that would prevent that token from being used twice in Round 3. There's no way to use one of Palp's tokens in one round and "double token" the same token the next round. You'd have to refrain from spending Palp's token one round in order to "double token" the next round.

This is the most realistic scenario:

Round 1: No ships in range.

Round 2: No ships in range OR Refrain from using Palp's tokens.

Round 3: Double token.

Round 4: Refresh and Refrain.

Round 5: Double token.

Round 6: Refresh with 1st activation and single token.

Personally, I'd try to double token in Round 3, refresh at the start of Round 4, and single token the remaining rounds.

Also, realistically, the rounds are not going to play out perfectly to allow the Imp player to attack and exhaust all 6 tokens, activate the flagship in the middle of the round and refresh Palp's tokens, and attack and exhaust all 6 tokens again. That would require 3 Imp ships to activate and all of them to perform 2 attacks each, then the flagship to activate and refresh Palp's tokens; then the flagship to perform 2 attacks, and 2 more Imps activate and perform 2 attacks each. That would be a helluva great round for the Empire even without Palpatine!

That would require 6 ships, which would necessitate an Imperial MSU build. I suppose that Imp squadrons could reduce the number of ships required to 4 or 5, but Scatter is the only defense token that Palpatine would realistically target on an Ace squadron. It would be a waste to discard an enemy Ace's Brace instead of a ship's Brace.

Regardless, getting the perfect Palpatine "double token" round would be so rare that it's not worth worrying about. A perfect round of attacks like that would virtually guarantee any player victory.

4 hours ago, Church14 said:

You were making Palpatine into 6 (max number of defense tokens a ship has AFAIK) copies of a super intel officer. Part of intel officer’s balance is the timing. It’s still a very good officer when you are choosing And exhausting before They spend defense tokens. The defender now has a choice to work around intel officer or accept the discard if they must use the critical defense token.

Moving the timing means that the defender no longer has counter play. Just a written “screw you” that they can’t counter. And I mean cannot counter. The other player has no mechanic, no abilities that can force you (the Palp player) into suboptimal choices. They just have to spend defense tokens and accept that they have no idea whether or not they’ll lose defense tokens. That isn’t fun nor balanced.

A single copy of an intel officer that triggers during the spending of defense tokens is wayyy more powerful than a regular intel officer. You’re proposal gives a pay single ship access to 6 on a sideboard. So let’s call Super Intel officer a 10 point crew because we are being conservative. That’s 60 points worth of them. 120 if you use a mechanically sound method of discard command dial to get refresh

As I explained before, the main reason why Imperial players don't use Emperor Palpatine is because his mechanics telegraph what defense token he is targeting from the start of each round, which makes it very easy for the opponent to counter him, and there's little to nothing the Imperial player can do.

For example, if Palpatine discards the Scatter token, the opponent will do their best to avoid combat with their flotillas and applicable Ace squadrons that round. If Palpatine discards the Brace token, the opponent will do their best to avoid placing their ships in range of attacks that round. It just causes the opponent to spoil the action that round in order to minimize Palpatine's effectiveness, which isn't fun ! It shouldn't be possible to counter or neutralize Palpatine like that.

You can't counter or neutralize Darth Vader's ability; you just have to accept that if Imperial ships get into attack range, Darth Vader can reroll any attack dice by spending a defense token. If you can't counter Vader, why should you be able to counter Palpatine?

The fear that Palpatine instills in his opponents is thematic and absolutely crucial.

I understand the need for game balance, but I'd rather reduce the number of defense tokens in Palpatine's token pool rather than change the timing of his ability to make him like Intel Officer. Palpatine must be able to spring his trap on opponents without warning. Opponents' only "counter" to Palpatine would be being too afraid to use their defense tokens, which is precisely how it should feel to fight against Emperor Palpatine.

Palpatine must be better than Intel Officer, otherwise there's no point. Any player, regardless of faction, can equip all of their ships with Intel Officer, if they choose. Intel Officer has been around since Wave 1, and it's always been a strong Officer. If Palpatine's ability worked the same way as Intel Officer, he wouldn't be unique. Palpatine is a Sith Lord! No other Commander or Officer should be able to do what he does.

Therefore, the timing of when Palpatine exhausts his token must be after the defending player chooses what defense tokens to spend. It would be perfectly thematic for Emperor Palpatine's foreboding quote:

7 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

To expand. The keys are Decimators and Arqs. On the turn you pop the scatter token Decimators with three black anti squad dice will batter their way through enemy squads. In the turn you pop brace Arqs with CF will decimate enemy braces across the board.

Palp is all about coordination. You need to hit the enemy all at the same time. This is a juxtaposition against usual fleet dynamics and last first play styles.

I'm supposed to change MY playstyle to account for different commanders? Seems weird to me.

10 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'm supposed to change MY playstyle to account for different commanders? Seems weird to me.

Apparently reacting to your opponents commander is standard practice and is not done out of fear.

Also more seriously, I'd like to see significant work put into these "bad commanders" to ensure that they ARE bad instead of just the assumption they need changes. Like, Gink played the crap out of Kon, I've played Leia so much I'm synonymous with her, etc. How many games have you played with the Emperor and what lists have been tried before we declare him bad and all? Onager LMSU? I know people who have done the Arqs and Rogues thing, but what else has been tried before declaring him "bad?"

I'm asking for source citations here, I'm not challenging anyone's credibility. The thread started out as "heres my proposed changes" but what about what IS?

5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'm asking for source citations here, I'm not challenging anyone's credibility. The thread started out as "heres my proposed changes" but what about what IS?

I've used him once and I found him a little underwhelming; granted, I don't have the time to really test him out with different types of lists to see if it was him, my use (or misuse) of him, or the list, so I can never be sure. With the majority of "bad" Commanders though (aside from Konstantine and Tagge, which I have tested), I always assess that the community just hasn't cracked the code on them yet. Just as an example, people seemed to think Thrawn was pretty "meh" until Two-Ship became a thing.

11 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

To expand. The keys are Decimators and Arqs. On the turn you pop the scatter token Decimators with three black anti squad dice will batter their way through enemy squads. In the turn you pop brace Arqs with CF will decimate enemy braces across the board.

Palp is all about coordination. You need to hit the enemy all at the same time. This is a juxtaposition against usual fleet dynamics and last first play styles.

This is how I’ve used him albeit with a different fleet configuration (2-ship without Pryce). I find he can work well when you use the Scatter to get you a leg up in the fighter game, particularly with your fighters having Counter. I’ve even used my Brace to take out Maarek (it seemed like a good idea). I’ve played this fleet about 10-12 times against a portion of the meta that’s out there, so my experience is far from conclusive. I have a bunch of other fleets that I want to play as soon as this pandemic is over and my gaming quota returns to normal.

As @geek19 points out though, there’s more fleet types with him and the meta has changed to some extent since his release. To be sure, though, he requires much more coordination and timing than most other Admirals.

Are there easier, better fleets to play out there? Sure... I like the challenge of seeing how he works and compare it to other game experiences where my Admiral did nothing for me as well. The big difference is that he’s about 10 points higher than most of those Admirals meaning that if he doesn’t do something for you, it’s a much larger investment.

Regardless, I’m glad to see that they’re adjusting some of the more egregious issues and while I don’t expect every one to be fixed, I sure hope they fix this one. I think something is missing from a game when some of the iconic figures aren’t used due to being underpowered...

17 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

To expand. The keys are Decimators and Arqs. On the turn you pop the scatter token Decimators with three black anti squad dice will batter their way through enemy squads. In the turn you pop brace Arqs with CF will decimate enemy braces across the board.

Palp is all about coordination. You need to hit the enemy all at the same time. This is a juxtaposition against usual fleet dynamics and last first play styles.

I would love this with my home brewed broken arquitens non unique title (I know I messed the adjectives but to be honest, English did that first xD)

10+ points: after you activate you may exhaust a copy of this card on another ship at distance 1-2 that didn't activate this turn. If you do, you must immediately activate that ship,

16 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

As I mentioned earlier, I'm using the new T-Series Tactical Droid upgrade card as a reference: It uses any Command Dial to ready the card.

No. It uses a command token. Look at the difference in icons between the T series and the new thrawn.

16 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

As I explained before, the main reason why Imperial players don't use Emperor Palpatine is because his mechanics telegraph what defense token he is targeting from the start of each round, which makes it very easy for the opponent to counter him, and there's little to nothing the Imperial player can do.

For example, if Palpatine discards the Scatter token, the opponent will do their best to avoid combat with their flotillas and applicable Ace squadrons that round. If Palpatine discards the Brace token, the opponent will do their best to avoid placing their ships in range of attacks that round. It just causes the opponent to spoil the action that round in order to minimize Palpatine's effectiveness, which isn't fun ! It shouldn't be possible to counter or neutralize Palpatine like that.

You can't counter or neutralize Darth Vader's ability; you just have to accept that if Imperial ships get into attack range, Darth Vader can reroll any attack dice by spending a defense token. If you can't counter Vader, why should you be able to counter Palpatine?

The fear that Palpatine instills in his opponents is thematic and absolutely crucial.

I understand the need for game balance, but I'd rather reduce the number of defense tokens in Palpatine's token pool rather than change the timing of his ability to make him like Intel Officer. Palpatine must be able to spring his trap on opponents without warning. Opponents' only "counter" to Palpatine would be being too afraid to use their defense tokens, which is precisely how it should feel to fight against Emperor Palpatine.

Palpatine must be better than Intel Officer, otherwise there's no point. Any player, regardless of faction, can equip all of their ships with Intel Officer, if they choose. Intel Officer has been around since Wave 1, and it's always been a strong Officer. If Palpatine's ability worked the same way as Intel Officer, he wouldn't be unique. Palpatine is a Sith Lord! No other Commander or Officer should be able to do what he does.

Therefore, the timing of when Palpatine exhausts his token must be after the defending player chooses what defense tokens to spend. It would be perfectly thematic for Emperor Palpatine's foreboding quote:

Your complaining that the fact that Palpatine takes an action at the start of the round which forces the opposing player to change their choices throughout the entire round counts as “nothing the imperial player can do?“ Here’s the thing. Palpatine has already taken the initiative in this scenario and is forcing the opponent to react. Most of the time in wargaming, maintaining the initiative (concept, not game mechanic) is better than reacting.

Arguing “you can’t counter Vader” is a pretty terrible argument. You might as well try and argue that players can’t counter their opponent’s engineering commands for all the sense that makes. We aren’t discussing actions a player Does that affects themselves (like dice mods). We are discussing abilities that affect others.

Fear? Not fear, just a resigned “oh good, this BS again.” Nobody feared pre-nerf Demolisher. We were just tired of seeing imperial players at tournaments whose fleet brought nothing to offer except that broken little prick. There won’t be any fear with your Palpatine, just a bored frustration that you literally cannot do anything against him as a commander except know you’ll only ever use each defense token on your important ships once.

The rest of your post was a bunch about how the Emperor should be amazing. Except he was a terrible fleet commander. His track record commanding fleets is 0-2 and he’s lost one SSD, 10000 Xyston-class, and about a dozen ISDs in two fights. He managed to destroy.... what? 20-30 capital ships for all that. He was at his best Subtly moving pieces until he won without his opponents ever knowing they’d been in a fight.

Since I should add something constructive, here’s a more thematic Palpatine:

“During fleet building, all ships may equip an additional officer.

All ships gain:

Engineering: add one engineering point to the pool when you spend a dial

Concentrate Fire: you may reroll a die when using a confire dial.

Squadron: You May activate an additional squadron when you spend a dial

Navigate: You May add one additional notch when using a command dial.

That’s a thematic, absurdly expensive Palpatine. His effect is essentially his battle meditation. All the imperial ships become more efficient at everything they do. I can’t really make him make individual officers better, so we sort of simulate it by bringing more.

47 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Since I should add something constructive, here’s a more thematic Palpatine:

“During fleet building, all ships may equip an additional officer.

All ships gain:

Engineering: add one engineering point to the pool when you spend a dial

Concentrate Fire: you may reroll a die when using a confire dial.

Squadron: You May activate an additional squadron when you spend a dial

Navigate: You May add one additional notch when using a command dial.

That’s a thematic, absurdly expensive Palpatine. His effect is essentially his battle meditation. All the imperial ships become more efficient at everything they do. I can’t really make him make individual officers better, so we sort of simulate it by bringing more.

So 50 points?

4 hours ago, geek19 said:

So 50 points?

Only 50?

On a related note, I see so many people complaining that (some card or ship) should be (different) because in canon it’s (this other way). That’s all well and good and I think the game should be heavily influenced by the movies, books, etc. At the end of the day, though, it’s a miniature war game with a Star Wars facade. Given the choice between staying as close to “canon” as possible and making it better for gameplay, I’d sacrifice canonicity for gameplay every single time.

8 minutes ago, bkcammack said:

Only 50?

On a related note, I see so many people complaining that (some card or ship) should be (different) because in canon it’s (this other way). That’s all well and good and I think the game should be heavily influenced by the movies, books, etc. At the end of the day, though, it’s a miniature war game with a Star Wars facade. Given the choice between staying as close to “canon” as possible and making it better for gameplay, I’d sacrifice canonicity for gameplay every single time.

But I read it in a book once! I want a green lantern ring!

1 hour ago, bkcammack said:

Only 50?

On a related note, I see so many people complaining that (some card or ship) should be (different) because in canon it’s (this other way). That’s all well and good and I think the game should be heavily influenced by the movies, books, etc. At the end of the day, though, it’s a miniature war game with a Star Wars facade. Given the choice between staying as close to “canon” as possible and making it better for gameplay, I’d sacrifice canonicity for gameplay every single time.

Yep. This. So much this. I once played a mission in Imperial Assault, running the Imperials. A Wampa burst though the wall and I, as the Imperial player, chose who it attacked. One of the Rebel players disputed the fairness of that, as "Wampas are not Imperial creatures; they should attack whatever is closest." Dude absolutely could not let go of how "blatantly unrealistic" that was.

...

That's right: it was "unrealistic" that a made up critter would not abide by the rules set by a board game based on a space opera fantasy. I think, overall, FFG development strikes an excellent balance between the flavor and feel of the SW universe, and a solid game. I just think Palpatine needs to see more work before he's written off.