Heya all -

I had a thought some time ago about how L5R is awesome, but given it's size I wonder about how every one of the major clans has a Japanese culture. I know that Lady Doji had an influence in this... but what if there was enough tradition around that while the dominant culture (i.e. Imperial) is japanese, the other clans had other cultures? Would the game benefit from opening up to other cultures?

So my thought is -

Lion are similar to the Jurchen of the pre-mongol invasion period - militaristic, strategists, cavalry focused but agrarian.

Unicorn are like the late Mongol empires. Cavalry, herding, semi-nomadic, but settling down with no outward wars to fight. Absolutely filthy rich.

Crane (and the Kuge) are our traditional japanese culture; infantry, highly feudal, but late edo period in tone - like most samurai movie samurai.

Dragon are similar to the Tibetan Empire - a remarkable amount of high quality arms and armour, semi-nomadic, clannish rather than feudal.

Phoenix are like Joseon dynasty in Korea - filled with internal tensions, and while independent are subservient to the Imperials.

Scorpion are traditional japanese also, but more like ashikaga period - warlike and devious. Plus ninjas.

Crab are (kinda..) like the Zhao empire of the chinese seven Warring states combined with the Qin - wall builders, militaristic, endlessly harrassed by the shadowlands leaving them open to the other clans.

Just some thoughts...

What do people think?

Yes, I think you pretty much summed up the cultural influences of the great clans. Yes, Japanese is the primary influence for the over-arching Empire, but the local areas take heavy influence from other real world East Asian cultures.

Also, the Mantis are very similar to the merchant kingdoms of Indonesia and Malaysia before the Dutch and British conquered those respective areas. The Yobanjin tribes of the North are similar to the Siberian/Kamchatka/Sakhalin tribes of Russia's Far East. And yes, i used general geographic references rather than the specific names of the various ethnic groups.

I am still trying to figure out which areas represent the cultures found in Burma/Myanmar, Siam/Thailand, the Philippines(pre-Spanish occupation), Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam.

FFG certainly seem to be introducing such influence already. Look at this Phoenix card, for example of Korean styling:

Aesthetically at least, the Dragon have a chinese flavor with their shaolin ise zumi monks and traditional chinese medicine and alchemy with the Agasha.

The Phoenix definitely have a korean flavor as well and the Unicorn are definitely the mongolian/manchurian ones.

On 8/9/2020 at 2:31 AM, neilcell said:

I am still trying to figure out which areas represent the cultures found in Burma/Myanmar, Siam/Thailand, the Philippines(pre-Spanish occupation), Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam.

The Ivory Kingdoms seem to combine elements of both India and some of south-east Asia.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Ivory Kingdoms seem to combine elements of both India and some of south-east Asia.

The India references with SOME Burmese, sure. But I don't really see the Thai, Cambodian, nor Vietnamese.

I'm more bothered that, despite Rokugan being a continental Empire, it doesn't have much in the way of neighbours and cultural interchange.

One unified nation being relatively monocultural is hardly surprising; using samurai as a stand-in for "asianess" with the occasional cosmetic splashes from other cultures thrown in just seems a bit a lazy.

5 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

I'm more bothered that, despite Rokugan being a continental Empire, it doesn't have much in the way of neighbours and cultural interchange.

One unified nation being relatively monocultural is hardly surprising; using samurai as a stand-in for "asianess" with the occasional cosmetic splashes from other cultures thrown in just seems a bit a lazy.

Well, this is methodically created with the fact that South they have literal **** on Earth, East they have an ocean and apparently no desire to explore (aside from the Mantis), North they have a huge mountain range that they don't bother sending many people over it and west they have a desert and a magical forest that swallows trespassers. What bothers me is that the size of Rokugan is not specified ever. For me, I like to think its about the size of the Korean Peninsula, not so big that traversing the country takes months nor small enough that traversing the country can take one day (except, of course if you were a Centipede Ise Zumi).

Shhh, we don't talk about those anymore 😉

As much as I loved the bonkers effects of the old tattoos, some were... Well. Bonkers.

Size is a thing. It does seem to me that there's a deliberate choice to make Rokugan's size a bit unknowable, with adventures making travel times seem a bit unreasonable. I assumed it was standard unrealistic fantasy distances 'You travel for three months to get to Unicorn territories...'

However! I just had a look at the Atlas of Rokugan...

That being said, having a look at Atlas of Rokugan, there is a scale on some of the provinces but unfortunately it's not useful for an overall size without getting out my ruler and still making a guess. As a rule of thumb, they seem to indicate most provinces are about 30 by 30 miles, and most families have four provinces. So 30x30 by 4 provinces by 4 families by 8 clans is 115200. This doesn't include stuff unowned by anyone, such as Shinomen Mori and so on, and is a very large fudge factor as the unicorn practically triple this...

Japan's size is 145914m2

So...

I retract my idea about the clans being so significantly different. I had assumed wrongly that Rokugan is the size of China when in fact it isn't. There'll be significant regional differences, but... I can see the monoculture working a little better in the smaller area, especially if they have been unified and culturally united by ... well, gods.

2 hours ago, ArghMark said:

Size is a thing. It does seem to me that there's a deliberate choice to make Rokugan's size a bit unknowable, with adventures making travel times seem a bit unreasonable. I assumed it was standard unrealistic fantasy distances 'You travel for three months to get to Unicorn territories...'

However! I just had a look at the Atlas of Rokugan...

That being said, having a look at Atlas of Rokugan, there is a scale on some of the provinces but unfortunately it's not useful for an overall size without getting out my ruler and still making a guess. As a rule of thumb, they seem to indicate most provinces are about 30 by 30 miles, and most families have four provinces. So 30x30 by 4 provinces by 4 families by 8 clans is 115200. This doesn't include stuff unowned by anyone, such as Shinomen Mori and so on, and is a very large fudge factor as the unicorn practically triple this...

Japan's size is 145914m2

So...

I retract my idea about the clans being so significantly different. I had assumed wrongly that Rokugan is the size of China when in fact it isn't. There'll be significant regional differences, but... I can see the monoculture working a little better in the smaller area, especially if they have been unified and culturally united by ... well, gods.

You were not wrong about your idea of the clans being significantly different. In many ways Rokugan really is 8 major nations or tribes and several smaller ones united by blood to a single monarch.

Elsewhere, maybe in the thread about Rokugan's Demographics, someone did go into a pretty through and detailed breakdown as to why Rokugan north to south is just under the real world distance from Hainan to Manchuria. it is probably safe to assume that while ambiguous, the true size is somewhere between the extremes of China under the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty and Japan's current size.

Keep in mind that the Imperial cartographers specifically conceal as the crow flies distances and shortcuts because it would cut into taxation of roads based on distance. Then you have the desire of the Otomo to have every advantage, so if they know straight line distances while the clans only know general distance, they can potentially outmaneuver the clans should the need arise during a possible civil war.

So don't dispense with your initial assessment. Your games are for your enjoyment so if you want to accentuate the differences to the point that they might as well be different countries, go for it. If you want to downplay the differences, do so. it is for your benefit and enjoyment that we have these discussions weighing the merits of the various perspectives.

Nope. In the Atlas of Rokugan they set the size at about twice the size of England (I think they meant the UK), and my own personal estimate puts it at about the size based on 1st Ed and the Atlas ofrokugan put it at around the size of France or the Iberian peninsula, which is also consistent with the supposed population density and with the travel times in fiction.

D20 and 3rd Edition however have a much bigger Rokugan.

Based on what we have in adventures to date:

Quote

The adventure begins as the PCs prepare for their journey to Shiro Yogasha. The castle is roughly six hundred li (about two hundred miles) to the north of Tsuma (the location of the Topaz Championship)

if Tsuma to Shiro Yogasha is about 200 miles, then on the (massively flawed!) assumption the map is roughly to scale, Friendly Traveller Village to the Badger Clan Castle is about seven and a half times that, or about fifteen hundred miles; about half again the length of France or Spain.

In the CRB for L5R 5th Edition, Rokugan is stated to be sized total 900X600 miles.

If that measure is true, you can use the map here to get travel distance and size comparison between points:
https://craneclan.weebly.com/map-of-rokugan.html

Use the hi-res map linked.

If that's the case, then the the linear distance between Tsuma and Shiro Yogasha is only 100 miles.

Roads not being straight lines can add to the distance but, again, it's a big difference along the more reliable latitude axis, and it's up to the GM to decide on their own scale.

17 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

In the CRB for L5R 5th Edition, Rokugan is stated to be sized total 900X600 miles

I thought there was such a statement, but couldn't find it in the book when I looked. Where is it?

Quote

The Emerald Lands, or “Rokugan” in the tongue of its people, comprise a vast, majestic countryside that stretches nine hundred miles from the pine valleys and snow-capped peaks of the Great Wall of the North mountains at one end, to the austere Carpenter Wall standing vigil along the country’s desolate southern border. Beyond the Wall lies the Shadowlands, a blighted land tainted by the influence of **** itself, and dangerous for even the most legendary heroes to step foot within. At its widest point, Rokugan measures six hundred miles, from the Sea of the Sun Goddess in the east to the Burning Sands in the west. Within its borders, bountiful plains ripple gold in the sunlight, and primordial forests hide mysterious spirits and dangerous creatures. Hot springs straddle mountain ranges and hills laden with precious gems and minerals. Countless rivers, lakes, and streams wend their way toward the ocean, where fish, seaweed, and pearls are netted by divers and fishermen. Crimson torii mark the gateway to sacred spaces, which exist alongside the sprawling cities and huddled hamlets of human civilization.

Page 6.

Edited: Funny censoring.

Thanks.

So....yeah. 600m x 900m puts Rokugan at roughly three times the land area of Japan, but much smaller than modern-day China by a factor of nearly ten.

https://craneclan.weebly.com/map-of-rokugan.html

The dimensions/scale on this map is 10 miles/side on the squares on this map based on this 600mX900m dimension.

4 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Page 6.

Edited: Funny censoring.

Yeah, don’t know why ‘inferno’ is considered a bad word.

On 8/14/2020 at 9:13 AM, KakitaKaori said:

Page 6.

Edited: Funny censoring.

Yeah, whoever programs the auto-censor needs to be fired. They are going so overboard it is a farce.

On 8/14/2020 at 1:09 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

Thanks.

So....yeah. 600m x 900m puts Rokugan at roughly three times the land area of Japan, but much smaller than modern-day China by a factor of nearly ten.

Which still falls within my assessment that it is somewhere between the two extremes of Japan and China as I stated.

I am of the opinion that with the size of the families and with how prolific they have to be, with the high attrition rate we have seen in Rokugan, Spain or France is not nearly large enough size to sustain the armies that battle across Rokugan. This is even more true of the Unicorn and their need for large areas to range across.

I seem to recall an interview statement that Rokuganu armies really aren't that big.

40 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I seem to recall an interview statement that Rokuganu armies really aren't that big.

I will readily acknowledge that the standing armies which often form the vanguard of the military might during declared wars are MUCH smaller than those of a fully mobilized country armed for active conflict. Reserves are often much greater than the ready at a moment's notice forces.

Again, one has to ask some VERY hard questions to form a baseline. Questions such as how many troops are regularly garrisoned at Shiro Matsu? Is the castle constantly at full capacity or is it only at 10% capacity during times of peace? Same applies to the Utaku Cavalry numbers. And that again goes to issue in the population/demographics discussion about how much land is required to sustain those numbers.

I would not apply those questions to the Crab as they are effectively at continuous war with the Shadowlands.

Just for a reference point, the Battle of Sekigahara included a good 200,000 combatants and was a major factor in the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate (Edo Period). And that was just two major factions in Japan duking it out. I suspect the most significant clan engagements of Rokugan are comparable to that in terms of size of forces committed.

Maybe this will be covered in the Lion book, seeing as how it tells you how big an army people can raise, by Status.

1 hour ago, neilcell said:

Just for a reference point, the Battle of Sekigahara included a good 200,000 combatants and was a major factor in the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate (Edo Period). And that was just two major factions in Japan duking it out. I suspect the most significant clan engagements of Rokugan are comparable to that in terms of size of forces committed.

Considering that the Clans are forbidden to go total war against each other, I would assume the last time the armies were actually raised were against the Unicorn during the time of their return.