9 hours ago, t4leswapper said:

In terms of her book being so high selling, I was just going by the NYT bestsellers lists. She's perennially a top 3 on the best sellers list. She debuted at number 1.

I'm not going to belabor the point, but I'm speaking of comic sales not graphic novel sales. I don't know the ins and outs of how the NYT bestseller list is established. Do sales to libraries count toward that list? Marvel sells thousands of books to local libraries as way of boosting their own sales numbers. It is however important to point out the distinction of the NYT graphic novel best seller list and the NYT bestselling book list. Comichron is the metric that most use to determine comic popularity. It shows the number of books purchased by comic shop owners to sell. Ms. Marvel is very low on that list. It's possible her readers don't buy her comics, but rather buy her graphic novels and digital prints instead.

9 hours ago, t4leswapper said:

Having taught at middle and high schools, however, I can assure you that Ms. Marvel is incredibly popular among teenage comics fans.

Perhaps this is regional, none of the kids I teach have ever heard of her. I have Muslim students who have never heard of her. The response is, "do you mean Captain Marvel?" That may be changing as she is now in the new upcoming Avengers game which is where I think most people will hear about her for the first time.

9 hours ago, t4leswapper said:

As Boggs pointed out, her narrative space is pretty much the classic Peter Parker narrative space from those 60's and 70's comics. It's no wonder that today's teens are just as enamored of Kamala as we were of Petey.

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Significantly more people have heard of Mile Morales than Kamala Khan, no question.

21 hours ago, urloony said:

Yeah, Scott Lang is fine. The story line with Hank and the whole wife-beater thing is unfortunate, but I'm not sure how many casual fans would be aware of that.

Lang is fine, it's O'Grady I dont care for.

Pym though did have a long run with the Avengers as Giant-Man, Yellow Jacket, and Goliath. Sadly they used him to be the villain in a few stories.

7 hours ago, urloony said:

I'm not going to belabor the point, but I'm speaking of comic sales not graphic novel sales. I don't know the ins and outs of how the NYT bestseller list is established. Do sales to libraries count toward that list? Marvel sells thousands of books to local libraries as way of boosting their own sales numbers. It is however important to point out the distinction of the NYT graphic novel best seller list and the NYT bestselling book list. Comichron is the metric that most use to determine comic popularity. It shows the number of books purchased by comic shop owners to sell. Ms. Marvel is very low on that list. It's possible her readers don't buy her comics, but rather buy her graphic novels and digital prints instead.

Perhaps this is regional, none of the kids I teach have ever heard of her. I have Muslim students who have never heard of her. The response is, "do you mean Captain Marvel?" That may be changing as she is now in the new upcoming Avengers game which is where I think most people will hear about her for the first time.

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Significantly more people have heard of Mile Morales than Kamala Khan, no question.

Of course more people have heard of Miles than Kamala. Miles had a major motion picture. Kamala hasn't had her series yet and the AAA video game with her as main protagonist isn't quite out yet. That doesn't change the fact that Kamala is a popular character with an excellent comic that is in the narrative space of the old Spider-Man comics.

As for the regional nature of my teaching experience. I suppose that's a hypothesis. I've taught in Texas, Arizona, and New York. So the region I'm limiting my experience to is the South/Southwest/New England.

It's just so weird that people feel the need to invent conspiracy theories whenever a newer character gets used.

1 hour ago, t4leswapper said:

It's just so weird that people feel the need to invent conspiracy theories whenever a newer character gets used.

I'd love to discuss it further, but it will lead to me getting banned. Edited to add that I know that sounds ominous, but moderators don't tolerate criticism of the IP.

On 8/10/2020 at 9:09 AM, urloony said:

It's possible her readers don't buy her comics, but rather buy her graphic novels and digital prints instead.

That's absolutely gonna be a factor. Most kids aren't interested in collecting every comic book; the graphic novel compilations are much easier to keep up with in that you have a semi-stand-alone story and don't have to find five different pieces of media just to read it coherently. It's the reason I never got into comics (aside from not having a comic store in my hometown) as a kid.

18 hours ago, urloony said:

moderators don't tolerate criticism of the IP.

You've clearly never spent time on any of FFG's Star Wars games' forums 😂

18 hours ago, urloony said:

I'd love to discuss it further, but it will lead to me getting banned. Edited to add that I know that sounds ominous, but moderators don't tolerate criticism of the IP.

This has not been my experience on FFG at all. They tend to not tolerate sexism or bigotry of any kind, but criticism of the IPs is usually fair game. (I'm not accusing you of sexism or bigotry, just that is what I've seen not be tolerated)

1 hour ago, DarthofZA said:

This has not been my experience on FFG at all. They tend to not tolerate sexism or bigotry of any kind, but criticism of the IPs is usually fair game. (I'm not accusing you of sexism or bigotry, just that is what I've seen not be tolerated)

My experience is similar

2 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

That's absolutely gonna be a factor. Most kids aren't interested in collecting every comic book; the graphic novel compilations are much easier to keep up with in that you have a semi-stand-alone story and don't have to find five different pieces of media just to read it coherently. It's the reason I never got into comics (aside from not having a comic store in my hometown) as a kid.

You've clearly never spent time on any of FFG's Star Wars games' forums 😂

I think relatively few people are buying comic books at all any more - I’ve read 1000’s in the last year on Marvel Unlimited, but I stopped buying them in 2010, as it was too expensive a hobby to keep up with. Having come back into comics now and seen how fantastic Marvel Unlimited is as a resource, I can’t see myself ever spending money on a physical book again - it just doesn’t make financial sense...

2 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

You've clearly never spent time on any of FFG's Star Wars games' forums 😂

Perhaps they have fairer moderation over there. I was "permanently" banned from this forum for criticizing Kamala Khan last October. It's an IP ban, so there is no chance of even sneaking back unless you use a VPN. I had to email an appeal to the sysop that was eventually taken before their little weekly moderator roundtable for discussion. I was informed that they don't have an appeal process, but took mine into consideration for reasons they didn't explain. I still have a permanent strike against my account for "abusive behavior" because I pointed out in detail why Kamala isn't as big a seller as Marvel claims. In the end, my account was reinstated because the moderator who banned my account didn't follow proper protocol, not because they felt the ban was unwarranted. Since then it's simply not worth it to prove a point.

2 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

This has not been my experience on FFG at all. They tend to not tolerate sexism or bigotry of any kind, but criticism of the IPs is usually fair game. (I'm not accusing you of sexism or bigotry, just that is what I've seen not be tolerated)

Well, there is a blending of issues. When I explained the reasons why Khan wasn't a big seller, I was accused of being bigoted against woman and Muslims by the other posters. That's all it took to get the attention of the moderators. I had three posts that were flagged all at once and I was banned. It was obvious that there was no sexism or bigotry, but in my case it just needed to be the accusation.

8 minutes ago, urloony said:

Well, there is a blending of issues. When I explained the reasons why Khan wasn't a big seller, I was accused of being bigoted against woman and Muslims by the other posters. That's all it took to get the attention of the moderators. I had three posts that were flagged all at once and I was banned. Anyone who looked at those posts objectively would see immediately there was no sexism or bigotry, but in my case it just needed to be the accusation.

Unless the reason had absolutely nothing to do with Kamala Khan being a woman or a Muslim, I could understand why people would assume it had something to do with being bigoted against woman and Muslims. But lets not rehash any of that. I have zero context into it, and don't really need it.

I will say, that within my circle of friends, I am the only one that has read any comics with Miles in them. Then again, I've been reading about 40 comics a month for the last 15+ years, so I've read many. Having said this, I would say I've read maybe 20% of his comics.

I've read 100% of the Ms. Marvel comics, and everything I've been aware of her appearing in. I've always found her comics to be brilliantly written with fantastic art. I've love her from her start, and continue to enjoy her to this day. I know of 4 others that have also read most of her comics if not all, and only 2 of them were because I urged them to (and once they started they didn't stop).

So in my, arguably extremely small sample set, Ms Marvel is a hit, and extremely popular. I don't know any other Marvel comic that is read by more than 2 of any of my other friends, so within my circle of friends, she is without a doubt the most popular Marvel character. Based on how consistently good her comics have been, I find it very hard to believe that she isn't one of Marvel's most popular characters. And yes, I know Miles is more known, but he has had 2 TV series, a Movie, and been around for a lot longer. Kamala has only had the comic.

1 minute ago, DarthofZA said:

So in my, arguably extremely small sample set, Ms Marvel is a hit, and extremely popular. I don't know any other Marvel comic that is read by more than 2 of any of my other friends, so within my circle of friends, she is without a doubt the most popular Marvel character. Based on how consistently good her comics have been, I find it very hard to believe that she isn't one of Marvel's most popular characters. And yes, I know Miles is more known, but he has had 2 TV series, a Movie, and been around for a lot longer. Kamala has only had the comic.

There's nothing wrong with liking Ms. Marvel as a character or her books. I've read them all as well. I have my issues with them, but that's me. I'm not sure Miles has been out much longer. Kamala was 2013 or 2014 I think, and Miles according to Wikipedia was 2011. I haven't read Miles. My criticism is more with the laziness of Marvel rather than the characters. Marvel doesn't pride itself in making new superheroes anymore, instead they reskin existing heroes. Granted Marvel has done that before, but not to the extent that they have within the last 10 years. Heroes are now "titles" rather than characters.

5 minutes ago, urloony said:

There's nothing wrong with liking Ms. Marvel as a character or her books. I've read them all as well. I have my issues with them, but that's me. I'm not sure Miles has been out much longer. Kamala was 2013 or 2014 I think, and Miles according to Wikipedia was 2011. I haven't read Miles. My criticism is more with the laziness of Marvel rather than the characters. Marvel doesn't pride itself in making new superheroes anymore, instead they reskin existing heroes. Granted Marvel has done that before, but not to the extent that they have within the last 10 years. Heroes are now "titles" rather than characters.

Arguably, the only thing similar between Ms. Marvel and the now Captain Marvel is the name. The powerset, personality, style of book, types of stories, literally everything is different.

Saying that, I do not disagree with your point.

Also, yeah, only 3.5 years difference. I think Miles just feels longer as he really did feel like another Peter to me.

3 minutes ago, DarthofZA said:

Arguably, the only thing similar between Ms. Marvel and the now Captain Marvel is the name. The powerset, personality, style of book, types of stories, literally everything is different.

I completely agree. However, Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel) and Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) where very similar and had similar Kree origin powers. Kamala's an Inhuman, with powers that seem to manifest similarly to Mr. Fantastic and Ant-Man/Goliath. She's a completely different character, so why call her Ms. Marvel?

1 hour ago, urloony said:

I completely agree. However, Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel) and Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) where very similar and had similar Kree origin powers. Kamala's an Inhuman, with powers that seem to manifest similarly to Mr. Fantastic and Ant-Man/Goliath. She's a completely different character, so why call her Ms. Marvel?

Arguably, Carol should have adopted Captain Marvel a long time ago.

Why not call Kamala Ms Marvel? In world, there’s a perfectly logical explanation for it, and in terms of the actual name, it’s a name they still own and like but aren’t using after moving Carol to be Captain Marvel. Ms Marvel isn’t a name that’s particularly tied to her set of powers or anything else - it’s not like they called her Warbird (which wouldn’t have made sense for a non-flying character).

Legacy characters have always been a thing in comics.

1 hour ago, urloony said:

I completely agree. However, Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel) and Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) where very similar and had similar Kree origin powers. Kamala's an Inhuman, with powers that seem to manifest similarly to Mr. Fantastic and Ant-Man/Goliath. She's a completely different character, so why call her Ms. Marvel?

A lot of this is a throwback to the classic comics. The idea of legacy heroes is one with a rich history in comics. People who aren't as aware of the history of comics might see it as something lacking originality and that comes out of the blue, but it's really more of a through-line in superhero comics. Sometimes comics like to get back to the classics of comics storytelling. Some people like that, some people don't, but I don't think comics are going to forget their origins anytime soon.

1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Ms Marvel isn’t a name that’s particularly tied to her set of powers or anything else

Yes it is, directly related in fact. Ms. Marvel first appeared with Captain Marvel, gets shot by Yon-Rogg, rescued by Mar-vell, and years later appears as Ms. Marvel, with similar powers to Mar-vell. It was her direct interaction with Marv-ell, the explosion of the Kree installation with the radiation that gave her her powers.

1 hour ago, t4leswapper said:

People who aren't as aware of the history of comics might see it as something lacking originality and that comes out of the blue, but it's really more of a through-line in superhero comics.

Oh, it lacks originality and does come out of the blue. Just because Jim Shooter made it popular in the 70's to start swapping characters, like Thor with BetaRay Bill, or killing off legacy characters to make way for new versions of the same hero, doesn't make it a good idea. The Marvel team hated it at the time (despite it's short lived popularity) and ultimately, fans call for the return of the original hero.

The explanation is much simpler, Marvel needs to sell comics and they take popular heroes that sell books and swap them for a new character design. You want Spider-Man here's Miles, you want Iron-man here's Riri, you want Ms. Marvel, here's Kamala. All three of those character examples could have launched as new characters from the start, instead of a retread of existing heroes. The trouble is, once Riri does get her own title, Iron-Heart tanks, because people stop buying. Why doesn't it sell? Is it bad writing? Is it bad art? Who knows? because you've ridden the coat-tails of an existing hero title, you won't know because your audience has been duped into buying the book for a few months thinking they're getting Iron-Man. The initial false boost in sales prevents the editors, writers and pencilers from truly understanding what makes their character appealing.

53 minutes ago, urloony said:

Yes it is, directly related in fact. Ms. Marvel first appeared with Captain Marvel, gets shot by Yon-Rogg, rescued by Mar-vell, and years later appears as Ms. Marvel, with similar powers to Mar-vell. It was her direct interaction with Marv-ell, the explosion of the Kree installation with the radiation that gave her her powers.

Oh, it lacks originality and does come out of the blue. Just because Jim Shooter made it popular in the 70's to start swapping characters, like Thor with BetaRay Bill, or killing off legacy characters to make way for new versions of the same hero, doesn't make it a good idea. The Marvel team hated it at the time (despite it's short lived popularity) and ultimately, fans call for the return of the original hero.

The explanation is much simpler, Marvel needs to sell comics and they take popular heroes that sell books and swap them for a new character design. You want Spider-Man here's Miles, you want Iron-man here's Riri, you want Ms. Marvel, here's Kamala. All three of those character examples could have launched as new characters from the start, instead of a retread of existing heroes. The trouble is, once Riri does get her own title, Iron-Heart tanks, because people stop buying. Why doesn't it sell? Is it bad writing? Is it bad art? Who knows? because you've ridden the coat-tails of an existing hero title, you won't know because your audience has been duped into buying the book for a few months thinking they're getting Iron-Man. The initial false boost in sales prevents the editors, writers and pencilers from truly understanding what makes their character appealing.

I’m well aware of Carol’s connection to Mar-Vell which is why she chose that name. The name doesn’t describe her powers though, so can also be used to describe a completely different power set.

3 hours ago, urloony said:

Yes it is, directly related in fact. Ms. Marvel first appeared with Captain Marvel, gets shot by Yon-Rogg, rescued by Mar-vell, and years later appears as Ms. Marvel, with similar powers to Mar-vell. It was her direct interaction with Marv-ell, the explosion of the Kree installation with the radiation that gave her her powers.

Oh, it lacks originality and does come out of the blue. Just because Jim Shooter made it popular in the 70's to start swapping characters, like Thor with BetaRay Bill, or killing off legacy characters to make way for new versions of the same hero, doesn't make it a good idea. The Marvel team hated it at the time (despite it's short lived popularity) and ultimately, fans call for the return of the original hero.

The explanation is much simpler, Marvel needs to sell comics and they take popular heroes that sell books and swap them for a new character design. You want Spider-Man here's Miles, you want Iron-man here's Riri, you want Ms. Marvel, here's Kamala. All three of those character examples could have launched as new characters from the start, instead of a retread of existing heroes. The trouble is, once Riri does get her own title, Iron-Heart tanks, because people stop buying. Why doesn't it sell? Is it bad writing? Is it bad art? Who knows? because you've ridden the coat-tails of an existing hero title, you won't know because your audience has been duped into buying the book for a few months thinking they're getting Iron-Man. The initial false boost in sales prevents the editors, writers and pencilers from truly understanding what makes their character appealing.

I'm not talking about the 70's. I'm talking about the 40's and the 50's. The transition from the golden age to the silver age was rife with new heroes taking up the legacies of existing heroes. Before that, you had the pulp legacies such as The Phantom who by some reckonings was the first superhero. New heroes taking up the mantles of existing heroes is part of the DNA of superhero comics.

The current waves of legacies are part of the longest of traditions in superhero comics. It's essentially going back to the roots of the genre. And not everyone has to like every genre. That's perfectly fine. It's just weird to complain about it as though it were somehow a new thing rather than a core part of what superhero comics have always been.

3 hours ago, FearLord said:

I’m well aware of Carol’s connection to Mar-Vell which is why she chose that name. The name doesn’t describe her powers though, so can also be used to describe a completely different power set.

Which is a very similar notion to how Ms. Marvel chose her name...because she is so huge a fan of Captain Marvel that she took on Danvers form instinctually on gaining her powers. That's a nice homage, and it made for a memorable character journey, a new hero getting to meet many of those they idolize.

On 8/12/2020 at 12:16 AM, t4leswapper said:

I'm not talking about the 70's. I'm talking about the 40's and the 50's. The transition from the golden age to the silver age was rife with new heroes taking up the legacies of existing heroes. Before that, you had the pulp legacies such as The Phantom who by some reckonings was the first superhero. New heroes taking up the mantles of existing heroes is part of the DNA of superhero comics.

In Marvel's history, character shake up has always been an attempt to revitalize a comic line to make more money. This never became Marvel practice until the Jim Shooter days in the 1970's, and that's the point. If you want to obfuscate that point with claims of what other comic companies did during the golden age, go ahead, but it has no bearing on the point I'm making. We can pretend it's part of the "DNA of superhero comics," but the unfortunate reality is that it is merely an attempt to improve the financial bottom-line of Marvel.

Hero changes in 2020 however, or no longer prompted by financial need, they're social. (This is the part that gets me into trouble). Marvel now panders to the screamers on social media to develop their current comic line. DC has spent years doing exactly the same thing, and now are now reaping what they've sown as of 2 days ago. The comic industry is in the dumpster because thy no longer write for their fans, but pander to the loudest posters on social media (who never buy comics by the way). I just hope Marvel wakes up and realizes that all of their pandering

On 8/11/2020 at 9:38 PM, FearLord said:

I’m well aware of Carol’s connection to Mar-Vell which is why she chose that name. The name doesn’t describe her powers though, so can also be used to describe a completely different power set.

This is only true if you don't believe in character identity.

On 8/11/2020 at 2:42 PM, FearLord said:

I think relatively few people are buying comic books at all any more - I’ve read 1000’s in the last year on Marvel Unlimited, but I stopped buying them in 2010, as it was too expensive a hobby to keep up with. Having come back into comics now and seen how fantastic Marvel Unlimited is as a resource, I can’t see myself ever spending money on a physical book again - it just doesn’t make financial sense...

I keep thinking I should give Marvel Unlimited a chance. Used to love comics and tossed a ton of money at them. Pretty much gave up a decade ago because I got sick of the constant mega events going on.

Tried coming back a few times since but always gave up quickly due to the awful writing.

7 hours ago, TechnoGolem said:

I keep thinking I should give Marvel Unlimited a chance. Used to love comics and tossed a ton of money at them. Pretty much gave up a decade ago because I got sick of the constant mega events going on.

Tried coming back a few times since but always gave up quickly due to the awful writing.

I got a bit burned out I think, but I was also looking to make some savings as my wife was pregnant with out first child and I was probably spending approximately £100 a month on Comics at the time...

Marvel Unlimited has been great. I picked up where I left off, but you can also just read older stories if that’s what interests you. If I ever catch up, I plan to read some things from the early days of Marvel...

4 hours ago, FearLord said:

I got a bit burned out I think, but I was also looking to make some savings as my wife was pregnant with out first child and I was probably spending approximately £100 a month on Comics at the time...

Marvel Unlimited has been great. I picked up where I left off, but you can also just read older stories if that’s what interests you. If I ever catch up, I plan to read some things from the early days of Marvel...

Out of interest, does it include non-mainstream titles published by Marvel (UK) such as Strikeforce: Morituri and Zoids?