Hey Everybody,

It has been a long time since I have played, well feels like it anyway and with the recent spoilers for Jango my brain harkened back to the Resistance Pilot (can’t remember her name 😳 ) that used red moved to proc her ability and caused many words to be spoken here.
I prefer R4’s on my Aethersprites as it allows a Sloop or K Turn then a hard 1 for close in fights. My question is, Will or does Jengo’s ability take into consideration R4? Jengo seems designed to be anti Jedi, could R4 be anti Jengo???

Cheers for your input!

6 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

Jengo seems designed to be anti Jedi, could R4 be anti Jengo???

So anything that can target lock can manage Jango ok. Add force charges to that and it helps even more. Basically Jango will actually take damage even with Boba added on as long as you avoid letting Jango i6 boost rear arc dodge you.

Jango’s most powerful ability by far is white boost + rear arc coverage + white 1 hard turns or the rest of the dial. Thats true even without a slave 1 title flying the ship by itself and choosing your dial during activation for you.

His pilot ability is definitely and actively relevant but it most directly impacts ships that don’t have the lock action. More relevant thing right now is for sure target lock setup. As long as you do that even if its a purple lock you are setting your self up well. Keep in mind Jango doesn't respond as well to being blocked like scum Boba does. If you block him and set locks you can push considerable damage through.

Jedi have the distinct advantage of being able to lock and still have mods on defense for dealing with other incoming shots. So from that perspective they are already natively anti-jango.

Unless there is some unholy undercosted always on passive mod defensive crew/gunner combo that Jango gets access to the problem you will want to be thinking about is “how can i set up locks, block, and keep jango in arc and mitigate his boost rear arc options?”

Of course all that goes out the window if some impossible to know now Palp Dooku Greivous Boba crew combo turns it into a bomb dropping i6 rear arc defender regardless of boardstate.

Im not to worried about that though. Jango seems like he will be more interesting than Boba from what I have seen so far.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So anything that can target lock can manage Jango ok. Add force charges to that and it helps even more. Basically Jango will actually take damage even with Boba added on as long as you avoid letting Jango i6 boost rear arc dodge you.

Jango’s most powerful ability by far is white boost + rear arc coverage.

His pilot ability is definitely and actively relevant but it most directly impacts ships that don’t have the lock action. More relevant thing right now is for sure target lock setup. As long as you do that even if its a purple lock you are setting your self up well. Keep in mind Jango doesn't respond as well to being blocked like scum Boba does. If you block him and set locks you can push considerable damage through.

Jedi have the distinct advantage of being able to lock and still have mods on defense for dealing with other incoming shots. So from that perspective they are already natively anti-jango.

Unless there is some unholy undercosted always on passive mod defensive crew/gunner combo that Jango gets access to the problem you will want to be thinking about is “how can i set up locks, block, and keep jango in arc and mitigate his boost rear arc options?”

Of course all that goes out the window if some impossible to know now Dooku Greivous Boba crew combo turns it into a i6 rear arc defender regardless of boardstate.

I thought the same thing, as in Jango could be an incredible kiter, I am interested what Separatist Slave 1 will be, if it's close to Scum Slave 1, it could be madness as well. Full board state change bearing at I6 with his ability at any range and dual arc could be pretty decent.

I have thought Jango with a Vulture mini swarm with Grievous crew could be good too. I would just need clarification on which went first in the timing, Reinforce or Grievous. Which also plays into the blocking denying Target Locks too, although blocking Jedi can be difficult at times.

I know November is a long way off, I am worried with the new mechanics power creep can seep in like in first edition but I am very curious to find out more about these new ships.

3 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I am very curious to find out more about these new ships.

Proxy it without points. Can learn alot that way. Sometimes the most fun part of a new wave is playing it without points just to see how it moves and how stuff moves around it.

Give him Palp Crew + Boba gunner + Bomb for theme and run whatever you want next to him. Even if the points are wrong you will learn something.

4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

My question is, Will or does Jengo’s ability take into consideration R4? Jengo seems designed to be anti Jedi, could R4 be anti Jengo???

R4 and other maneuver difficulty changing options only function while you execute the maneuver. If you did a Hard 1 reduced to blue by R4, it'd be white by the time you reach any time Jango might attack or defend.

Thus, Jango beats R4. Your Hard 1 will still be white, and Jango with a blue move will still mess up your focus results.

I hate this card so much--not necessarily broken, but looks so incredibly un-fun to play against in the way it disrupts your actions and your maneuver choices.

Plus Init 6 Boosting "turret" is never great.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

I hate this card so much--not necessarily broken, but looks so incredibly un-fun to play against in the way it disrupts your actions and your maneuver choices.

Plus Init 6 Boosting "turret" is never great.

It's significantly more fair than Boba is, and we've survived now going into 3 cycles of Boba meta

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Proxy it without points. Can learn alot that way. Sometimes the most fun part of a new wave is playing it without points just to see how it moves and how stuff moves around it.

I found it super interesting that they said on stream "probably not as good as boba, even at i6...", So if I were proxying it I'd probably out him at 85 points.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Of course all that goes out the window if some impossible to know now Palp Dooku Greivous Boba crew combo turns it into a bomb dropping i6 rear arc defender regardless of boardstate.

I'm thinking dooku crew for passive mods, then just blue and either boost or reinforce every turn. Reinforce on jango when his ability is active takes 1 damage per shot.

29 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I hate this card so much--not necessarily broken, but looks so incredibly un-fun to play against in the way it disrupts your actions and your maneuver choices.

.... Does it though?

I honestly don't think my opponent bringing Jango would change much about my playstyle at all. Like, so what if his ability triggers? He slightly lowers the effectiveness of your focus tokens. Oh no. Maybe I'll have to take the focus action 60% of the time instead of 80%.

If you see Jango across from you and think "I'd better dial blues in case Jango has", you're putting too much weight on the effectiveness of that ability. I think you can very easily look at it from the other side and say "Jango's ability does absolutely nothing if I do anything other than focus". This is before you factor in that being stuck on blues would make Jango super predictable. The only slightly problematic thing is the range between the one and three straight, but even that's not a big deal. A Jango who wants to use ability is going to easy enough to block, and unlike Boba Jango doesn't gain strength from being blocked. Anyone who's played Wedge knows how often he gets blocked when dialling a blue after a k-turn, and that's with extra blue banks. Anyone who's played Lando knows how easy he is to block even with Nien Nunb; it's even easier without Nien and that's basically the Firespray blues.

The fact that he's an I6 with a white boost, white 1 hard medium base with a rear arc is far more problematic than his ability. But if he's pulling the sort of maneuvers that will make him hard to block, he's unlikely to get his ability. So if he pulls the boost, he basically isn't getting dice mods unless he brings Coont Dooku or Chancellor Palpatine crew. And if he tries to trigger the ability to get some pseudo mods, you can block him and take away the boost or his own focus action.

Basically, I see him as being a more expensive Defender with the same low damage output while being easier to kill.

30 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

He slightly lowers the effectiveness of your focus tokens.

Let's investigate. I was already doing the math because I was curious:

• Attack
  • 4 Red: Focused = 3.0, Unfocused = 2.0, vs Jango = 2.3164. 69% of the focus lost
  • 3 Red: Focused = 2.25, Unfocused = 1.5, vs Jango = 1.671875. 77% of focus lost
    • Being down a bit more than half a hit is probably more than a single reroll would add to Boba's defense
  • 2 Red: Focused = 1.5, Unfocused = 1.0, vs Jango = 1.0625. 88% of focus lost
    • Roughly the defense of a no-tokens 2-red ship with Heroic
• Defense
  • 3 Greens: Focused = 1.875, Unfocused = 1.125, vs Jango = 1.296875. 77% of the focus lost
    • You're down about half-an-evade. Half a damage is about what a single reroll adds to Boba's attack
  • 2 Greens: Focused = 1.25, Unfocused = 0.75, vs Jango = 0.8125. 88% of the focus lost
    • Roughly the defense of a no-tokens 2-green ship with Heroic
  • 1 Greens: Focused = 0.625, Unfocused = 0.375, vs Jango = 0.375. 100% of the focus lost
    • LOL spending focus on 1 green die...

I don't know if I'd call that a slight reduction in focus. It's nearly the whole action. Take a Lock to damage Jango, and you've denied yourself focus mods for defense--essentially giving Jango's ability on offense to the entire enemy squad. If it's 1-on-1, it's not too bad, but you've stripped the mods against any other ships that might attack you.

It'll be really hard to compare directly to Boba without getting into joint distributions, but when Jango is active, it's pretty impactful, and probably fairly close to Boba. Heroic is an easy compare for 2-dice scenarios, and Jango is a hair worse on offense but a hair better on defense.

It's not that there's nothing you can do. There is counter play. It just looks like it'll be annoying and unfun and dumb counterplay.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Basically, I see him as being a more expensive Defender with the same low damage output while being easier to kill.

I just don't know that the "low damage" aspect really holds up. Jango basically gets to attack no-mods ships. Focus is mostly gone, and if you've gotten folks to take Locks instead, they have no mods on defense. That's going to add up.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

The fact that he's an I6 with a white boost, white 1 hard medium base with a rear arc

This too. Init 6 Firespray with no text is probably going to suck anyhow, and I'm honestly surprised to see folks who usually call for ace nerfs go to bat for Jango.

Like Ensnare Sun Fac, he's not an anti-ace ship. He's an ace who's good against other aces, but still great against non-ace stuff. To be sure, he won't be as broken as Ensnare Sun Fac. However like them, Jango isn't the solution to a problem, but an extension of it.

Heck, he might easily be more disruptive against non-force pilots than against force ones. A force pilot can take a lock against Jango without giving up their defenses against the rest of the squad, and Lock+Force is going to lose very little on offense (folks should probably be rerolling their eye results more often anyhow). This supposedly Anti-Jedi fighter probably won't even be great against Jedi, but just hose generics.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

I think you can very easily look at it from the other side and say "Jango's ability does absolutely nothing if I do anything other than focus".

I don't really see that as a defense of Jango, but the condemnation. Switching a whole squad away from Focus is something that I don't want a pilot to be able to do (and if you just don't focus, you've basically just turned on his ability for everyone else!). It's just not fun. I'd much rather have to try to range control and keep my distance, being able to employ any of my actions and moves to accomplish that.

It's less that he's necessarily too strong (although the math on an Active Jango is pretty good), but more that he just cheeses me off. I can't imagine ever enjoying a game against Jango Fett.

Just look at the approach for a second. Active Jango at Range 3--before an opponent is close enough to get locks--is going to be a TANK. So early game can pretty much only just be dawdle in with blues. The option to rush forward with a 4 or 5 straight as a surprise quick move vs a slow approach is gone. I think that'll just be deathly dull.

11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Let's investigate. I was already doing the math because I was curious:

• Attack
  • 4 Red: Focused = 3.0, Unfocused = 2.0, vs Jango = 2.3164. 69% of the focus lost
  • 3 Red: Focused = 2.25, Unfocused = 1.5, vs Jango = 1.671875. 77% of focus lost
    • Being down a bit more than half a hit is probably more than a single reroll would add to Boba's defense
  • 2 Red: Focused = 1.5, Unfocused = 1.0, vs Jango = 1.0625. 88% of focus lost
    • Roughly the defense of a no-tokens 2-red ship with Heroic
• Defense
  • 3 Greens: Focused = 1.875, Unfocused = 1.125, vs Jango = 1.296875. 77% of the focus lost
    • You're down about half-an-evade. Half a damage is about what a single reroll adds to Boba's attack
  • 2 Greens: Focused = 1.25, Unfocused = 0.75, vs Jango = 0.8125. 88% of the focus lost
    • Roughly the defense of a no-tokens 2-green ship with Heroic
  • 1 Greens: Focused = 0.625, Unfocused = 0.375, vs Jango = 0.375. 100% of the focus lost
    • LOL spending focus on 1 green die...

I don't know if I'd call that a slight reduction in focus. It's nearly the whole action. Take a Lock to damage Jango, and you've denied yourself focus mods for defense--essentially giving Jango's ability on offense to the entire enemy squad. If it's 1-on-1, it's not too bad, but you've stripped the mods against any other ships that might attack you.

It'll be really hard to compare directly to Boba without getting into joint distributions, but when Jango is active, it's pretty impactful, and probably fairly close to Boba. Heroic is an easy compare for 2-dice scenarios, and Jango is a hair worse on offense but a hair better on defense.

It's not that there's nothing you can do. There is counter play. It just looks like it'll be annoying and unfun and dumb counterplay.

I'm glad you did the math. My gut reaction was "Focus results are a large portion of the results you can roll. How could that not be strong?" Certainly, any ship that regularly does blue maneuvers is fine against him, but any revealed red maneuver goes from "I'm sacrificing a mod for time on target" to "I'm sacrificing a mod and giving my opponent a passive offensive and defensive mod for time on target". Add to I6 and a medium base white boost, and he's going to be fricking strong.

Can anyone in Seps transfer tokens? If he could somehow get an evade, Juke would be dastardly on him.

3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

So anything that can target lock can manage Jango ok. Add force charges to that and it helps even more. Basically Jango will actually take damage even with Boba added on as long as you avoid letting Jango i6 boost rear arc dodge you.

Jango’s most powerful ability by far is white boost + rear arc coverage + white 1 hard turns or the rest of the dial. Thats true even without a slave 1 title flying the ship by itself and choosing your dial during activation for you.

His pilot ability is definitely and actively relevant but it most directly impacts ships that don’t have the lock action. More relevant thing right now is for sure target lock setup. As long as you do that even if its a purple lock you are setting your self up well. Keep in mind Jango doesn't respond as well to being blocked like scum Boba does. If you block him and set locks you can push considerable damage through.

Jedi have the distinct advantage of being able to lock and still have mods on defense for dealing with other incoming shots. So from that perspective they are already natively anti-jango.

Unless there is some unholy undercosted always on passive mod defensive crew/gunner combo that Jango gets access to the problem you will want to be thinking about is “how can i set up locks, block, and keep jango in arc and mitigate his boost rear arc options?”

Of course all that goes out the window if some impossible to know now Palp Dooku Greivous Boba crew combo turns it into a bomb dropping i6 rear arc defender regardless of boardstate.

Im not to worried about that though. Jango seems like he will be more interesting than Boba from what I have seen so far.

I think you may be overestimating the power of locks to work around Jango's ability. By removing a focus result from the red dice pool, he's still subtracting a result that you otherwise could've rerolled with a lock. That's half as good as the ability is versus a focus token - the subtracted focus result would've had a 50% chance to reroll into a hit/crit via lock, compared to a guaranteed hit with a focus token. That's still a significant loss, considering the lower flexibility of locking compared to focusing (it's offensive-only) and the difficulty/guesswork sometimes involved in locking onto a fast i6.

10 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I'm glad you did the math.

It was surprisingly easy for the expected values.

Looking at 2 dice, you've got HH, HF, HB, FF, FB, BB if ignoring order (we'll add it back later). If we're calculating expected value, we multiply the chances of each result, times the hits-value of the result, but for any result with some focus in, the hits-value goes down by 1 due to Jango. So basically, we can take the average on two dice 2*(H+B), and subtract 2*HF + 2*FB - FF, where H,F,B are the chances of each result (4/8, 2/8, 2/8).

5 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

I think you may be overestimating the power of locks to work around Jango's ability. By removing a focus result from the red dice pool, he's still subtracting a result that you otherwise could've rerolled with a lock. That's half as good as the ability is versus a focus token - the subtracted focus result would've had a 50% chance to reroll into a hit/crit via lock, compared to a guaranteed hit with a focus token. That's still a significant loss, considering the lower flexibility of locking compared to focusing (it's offensive-only) and the difficulty/guesswork sometimes involved in locking onto a fast i6.

Yeah, not really.

If you have a Lock but no Focus-type modification, any Focus results are mathematically indistinguishable from blanks.

Lock against Jango will do the same as Focus against a Firespray without a pilot ability.

Jango is vulnerable to locks rocks and blocks, and extremely vulnerable to even two dice shots let alone range one shots, so he's eminently more pleasant than your average force ace...

I don't see "not as bad as two broken things" as necessarily the goal.

13 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Let's investigate. I was already doing the math because I was curious:

• Attack
  • 4 Red: Focused = 3.0, Unfocused = 2.0, vs Jango = 2.3164. 69% of the focus lost
  • 3 Red: Focused = 2.25, Unfocused = 1.5, vs Jango = 1.671875. 77% of focus lost
    • Being down a bit more than half a hit is probably more than a single reroll would add to Boba's defense
  • 2 Red: Focused = 1.5, Unfocused = 1.0, vs Jango = 1.0625. 88% of focus lost
    • Roughly the defense of a no-tokens 2-red ship with Heroic
• Defense
  • 3 Greens: Focused = 1.875, Unfocused = 1.125, vs Jango = 1.296875. 77% of the focus lost
    • You're down about half-an-evade. Half a damage is about what a single reroll adds to Boba's attack
  • 2 Greens: Focused = 1.25, Unfocused = 0.75, vs Jango = 0.8125. 88% of the focus lost
    • Roughly the defense of a no-tokens 2-green ship with Heroic
  • 1 Greens: Focused = 0.625, Unfocused = 0.375, vs Jango = 0.375. 100% of the focus lost
    • LOL spending focus on 1 green die...

I don't know if I'd call that a slight reduction in focus. It's nearly the whole action.

Vs Jango, yeah.

But those focus tokens still work just as well against the rest of the squad. Jango doesn't remove your focus tokens completely - they can still be used during the turn. That's what I was getting at

That's relevant because the very next thing you say is

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Take a Lock to damage Jango, and you've denied yourself focus mods for defense--essentially giving Jango's ability on offense to the entire enemy squad.

I think we need to be fair. Either we look at Jango by himself, or we look at Jango + squad. If it's Jango by himself, then yeah you lose quite a bit with that focus token - but you lose very little with the lock. If it's Jango plus squad, then the focus use loss is less, relatively speaking but the 'risk' side of locking is greater.

Thing is, lock making you more vulnerable defensively has always been a thing. It hasn't stopped people locking high value targets or finding ways to maneuver to make it work.

And if you're worried about the effect Jango's ability has for the whole squad then just.... ignore Jango. Take the focus anyway if you think the rest of the squad will have shots.

I think ignoring Jango is easier than you think, for reasons I'll come onto.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I just don't know that the "low damage" aspect really holds up. Jango basically gets to attack no-mods ships. Focus is mostly gone, and if you've gotten folks to take Locks instead, they have no mods on defense. That's going to add up.

Because you've conveniently ignored the whole argument that got me to the 'Defender level offence' conclusion.

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

but when Jango is active, it's pretty impactful,

This is the crux.

Jango's ability is so, so much harder to leverage than Boba's.

If Jango's going for his ability, he's super predictable and shouldn't be getting his own dice mods. Yes, he weakens your dice but he has nothing to help his own.

And if he's avoiding blocks and taking focus actions / locks then it's very unlikely his maneuver is easier than yours and so his ability won't trigger.

The whole point is that Jango isn't likely to get the double mod effect. Unless he spends a stack of points on Dooku and Palpatine.

But here's the thing. Jango can't get good stacking mods the way Boba can. The reason Boba is *so* good is because his ability specifically grants him free re-rolls. They just happen to mesh perfectly with Force tokens. The absolute ideal dice mods is re-roll plus fixed result token spend where both are completely action independent and occur regardless of bumping.

Jango can't get that.

Hence the Defender comparison. The Defender gets free evades and stress free, action allowing k-turns but **** all in the way of guaranteed re-rolls + focus spend. Jango will be the same.

27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Heck, he might easily be more disruptive against non-force pilots than against force ones. A force pilot can take a lock against Jango without giving up their defenses against the rest of the squad, and Lock+Force is going to lose very little on offense (folks should probably be rerolling their eye results more often anyhow). This supposedly Anti-Jedi fighter probably won't even be great against Jedi, but just hose generics.

Again, this seems like a ... confused argument to me, because I can't work out if we're talking about Jango or list building match ups as a whole.

Sure, Jango doesn't stop Jedi using their Force against other ships in the list but..... nothing does? I feel like you're missing the point of what people mean when they say Jango is an anti-Jedi ship. They mean that for a given dice roll, Jango has a better chance of pushing damage through on Jedi than any other pilot except Kestal. That's it. Sure, he doesn't completely shut down Force for the whole list but.... was anyone expecting that?

Your argument is based on how free Force makes it hard for a list to burn down a Jedi regardless of the action they take. That isn't an argument against Jango's design space, that's yet another indictment of how strong Force tokens are in general. Jango might not be laser focused on nullifying Jedi, but he's still your best bet to do something against them.

I also find it odd that you're saying Jango alone is 'good' against generics for making them lock. Like, against literally any pilot, if a generic locks they're vulnerable to the rest of the list. This comes into my next point.

33 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't really see that as a defense of Jango, but the condemnation. Switching a whole squad away from Focus is something that I don't want a pilot to be able to do (and if you just don't focus, you've basically just turned on his ability for everyone else!).

Isn't this a worrying argument? If you're saying that, of all the possible actions in the game a given ship can take, there is exactly one they can't take for optimum results and that that is a disaster for the ship in question.... doesn't that suggest that the focus action is incredibly imbalanced vs those other actions?

I just can't get on board with this "if you don't focus, all the ships get Jango's ability". It's nonsense. It's implying that every ship in the game wants to focus every single turn at the expense of all else. A focus token can only ever, in all cases vs all lists, help you on exactly one dice roll.

If that one dice roll is worth more than any other effect granted by another action, then that is a problem with the focus token, not Jango's ability.

And I'm going to reiterate something I said earlier.

If you're worried about what the non-Jango ships can do to you if you don't focus (if you're worried about 'turning on the ability for everyone else) then.... just focus. Jango can't stop you spending that focus against the rest of the list. Yes, taking a focus slightly buffs Jango on the order of a single re-roll but that's the absolute most he's going to get .

40 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I can't imagine ever enjoying a game against Jango Fett.

I'm looking forward to it. I think predicting his maneuvers and working out how to get round them is going to be a ton of fun.

42 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Just look at the approach for a second. Active Jango at Range 3--before an opponent is close enough to get locks--is going to be a TANK.

Having to work out how to get locks on an I6 is not a problem unique to Jango, nor is worrying that a focus won't give me enough to push through his defences.

I would rather play against Jango than CLT Anakin.

5 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The whole point is that Jango isn't likely to get the double mod effect. Unless he spends a stack of points on Dooku and Palpatine.

Dooku being cheaper than Maul crew and being able to mod your opponents dice is particularly good for Jango. Call a focus or blank result with Dooku on a two die attack and there won't be too many "good" rolls that would have a max of 1 hit or crit. Again being I6 and having a white boost factor into how strong he is, as well. Blocking Jango becomes less of an option when he has a force crew and is in a faction with the cheapest blockers in the game making room for him.

5 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The whole point is that Jango isn't likely to get the double mod effect. Unless he spends a stack of points on Dooku and Palpatine.

But here's the thing. Jango can't get good stacking mods the way Boba can. The reason Boba is *so* good is because his ability specifically grants him free re-rolls. They just happen to mesh perfectly with Force tokens. The absolute ideal dice mods is re-roll plus fixed result token spend where both are completely action independent and occur regardless of bumping.

Jango can't get that.

We often focus on double-mods, but there's really three main kinds of mods.

1. Reroll-type.
2. Focus-type. Can probably put stuff like Fearless/Ruthless in here I guess.
3. Hose-your-opponent's-dice-type. The last ones are less common, but that's why Juke can be so good, and why Wedge is at least OK.

Jango can pretty easily take Force crew (same as Boba), so they both have that. Jango doesn't get rerolls while blocked, but *can* get dice-hosing while blocked, and if unblocked, he can go up to triple-mods, which is better than Boba. He won't always have it, but Jango's best-case is better than Boba's, while Boba's worst-case is a lot better than Jango's.

To be sure, it's more manageable when blocked. That's a wicked low bar to clear, and not enough for me to be happy with a pilot. Not-as-bad-as-the-other-guys just isn't compelling.

Plus, Jango probably doesn't want to knife-fight as much as Boba. Boba's resistance to blocking mattered greatly, because he was putting himself in positions to be blocked by fighting in close. Jango might be better at avoiding those situations just by keeping more of a distance.

20 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Your argument is based on how free Force makes it hard for a list to burn down a Jedi regardless of the action they take. That isn't an argument against Jango's design space, that's yet another indictment of how strong Force tokens are in general. Jango might not be laser focused on nullifying Jedi, but he's still your best bet to do something against them.

I also find it odd that you're saying Jango alone is 'good' against generics for making them lock. Like, against literally any pilot, if a generic locks they're vulnerable to the rest of the list. This comes into my next point.

I guess what I mean is that Jango forces a generic to give up more.

A generic which locks loses defenses. A generic who focuses for options loses a lot of offense against Jango. A Jedi can lock without losing defense.

It's like, I don't think he'll cause a meta-shift away from Jedi.

16 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I'm looking forward to it. I think predicting his maneuvers and working out how to get round them is going to be a ton of fun.

Maybe. I just think it's going to be frustrating and annoying.

38 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Dooku being cheaper than Maul crew and being able to mod your opponents dice is particularly good for Jango. Call a focus or blank result with Dooku on a two die attack and there won't be too many "good" rolls that would have a max of 1 hit or crit. Again being I6 and having a white boost factor into how strong he is, as well. Blocking Jango becomes less of an option when he has a force crew and is in a faction with the cheapest blockers in the game making room for him.

Jango doesn't get free re-rolls, though.

That's the point. Maul is stapled to Boba because free calculate + free re-rolls on both attack and defence is extremely potent.

Free calculates are good, don't get me wrong. The Force is extremely, and probably unfairly good. But the effect is lessened if you can't get a re-roll to help with blanks.

And Dooku crew may synergise with Jango better with any other pilot, but I'm still not sure the ability is brokenly strong. It just doubles the chance of blanking one of their attack dice from 2/8 to 4/8 or slightly less than doubling the chances of getting to blank one of their defence dice.

Actually, does it even do that? You still have to call the right result, and you can only call one. You can't say 'blank or eye result', you just now have the option to call eye and still turn that to a blank.

So yeah, it changes nothing about modding their attack dice. They are equally as likely to roll no eyes as they are no blanks, so whichever one you call you still have the same chance of them not rolling one.

All Dooku + Jango does is call eye on defence dice instead of blank to give you the same odds of successfully blanking one of their results as an the attack dice.

That's barely worth considering. If Dooku is never taken for the card text as is, Jango won't change that. He's there for the Force point, like all Force crew.

Even if using Dooku's ability was a good thing, you'd still be sacrificing Jango's own free dice mod.

Here's the thing. Pay whatever points Jango is going to be for an I6 Firespray (almost certainly too low initially, but that's another matter) and then pay for a Force crew and probably some other upgrade (new Slave One?) that will look good and then if Jango gets to fully execute a maneuver, get a lock for re-rolls or boost out of an arc or whatever and get to trigger his ability, then yeah he's going to be really strong.

But I just don't see this silly wombo combo being easy enough to trigger for a cheap enough cost that it's really worth it over taking however many Vultures you could fit in the price gap between this build and another perfectly good Firespray (we still don't know what I5 Zam does).

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

He won't always have it, but Jango's best-case is better than Boba's

But Jango's best case is going to happen so much less often than Boba's.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

while Boba's worst-case is a lot better than Jango's.

And Jango's worst case is going to happen at least as often as Boba's, if not more.

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

To be sure, it's more manageable when blocked. That's a wicked low bar to clear,

I mean, is it? It's kinda one of the fundamental design areas of balance.

Being blockable and expensive is why Han doesn't dominate. Being blockable, or at least predictable, is why Wedge will never be on the same level as Soontir.

Look, Jango is going to be strong, no doubts there. But it's Jango freakin' Fett , he was always going to be. I just don't see him being any more NPE or difficult to play against as Han.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to actually play against him to see.

13 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Jango might be better at avoiding those situations just by keeping more of a distance.

Which puts a cap on his red dice and partially undoes his ability by giving his targets an extra green die and an extra chance to roll an evade or second eye.

It's a trade off. That's good.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A generic which locks loses defenses.

True of literally any generic against literally any list.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A generic who focuses for options loses a lot of offense against Jango.

One ship who will cost roughly half a list and still only roll 3 - 4 attack dice.

A generic can still spend its focus against any ship in the list that isn't Jango.

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A Jedi can lock without losing defense.

This is now borderline lying.

A Jedi that locks Jango will have lost defence against Jango.

Yes, a Jedi that locks against Jango will lose defence against the rest of the list, but that's true of any Jedi locking any ship in any list. The difference is that in any other list, a Jedi that locks has the same defence against any ship in the list. A Jedi that locks anyone in a list that contains Jango will be more vulnerable to Jango.

Again, what Jedi can and can't get away with has nothing to do with Jango. Jango does not change anything about how Jedi work except that he himself can get a little attacking bonus against them.

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's like, I don't think he'll cause a meta-shift away from Jedi.

Obviously not, but that says far less about Jango than it does about Jedi.

46 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, not really.

If you have a Lock but no Focus-type modification, any Focus results are mathematically indistinguishable from blanks.

Lock against Jango will do the same as Focus against a Firespray without a pilot ability.

No, because in the case of having lock but no focus, focus results can be rerolled, which has a 50% chance of scoring a hit or crit. Jango removes one of those focus results, making it have a 0% chance of turning into a hit or crit.

Unfortunately I don't have the maths skills to calculate the exact percentage difference. I do know the logic via the concepts underlying focus and locks having the same average results under normal circumstances.

Attack dice are 4 out of 8 sides (50%) successes, i.e. hit/crit, 2 sides (25%) focus, 2 sides (25%) blank. Focus converts the 25% focus results to hits, i.e. 75% average successes. Lock rerolls the 50% non-successes, each of which has a 50% chance to reroll into a success, therefore adding 50% of 50% (25%) for the same 75%.

In the case of the lock, Jango is taking away one of the focus (non-success) dice results away from the pool available to reroll, therefore reducing the average result. It's non-trivial to calculate exactly how much because it scales with the number of dice rolled. The logic behind it is clear enough, because the average result is, as I demonstrated at the start of this paragraph, lower against Jango with a lock-only than a normal lock-only attack (because one potential reroll is stripped away); and as we know that a normal lock-only attack has the same average result as a normal focus-only result, Jango therefore makes a Jango'd lock-only attack weaker than a normal focus-only attack.

Or to demonstrate by an example, imagine that you have lock but no focus, attack Jango and roll: hit + focus + blank. If his ability isn't active, you can spend your lock to reroll both the focus and blank, each of which has a 50% chance to hit/crit. If his ability is active, the focus is taken away and you only get to reroll the blank for a single 50% chance.

The other bit to consider: With Jango's wording, his ability pretty much only applies to white maneuvers and Ten Numb. Most ships don't get focus mods on red maneuvers anyway. If you're playing like a B-Wing and go Red-Blue-Red-Blue his ability literally never affects you, because either it doesn't proc or you don't have focus mods anyway. If you're playing like Soontir or Vonreg and go Blue-Blue-Blue-Blue, his ability never even procs.

Obviously there are exceptions, notably force aces (which he's inherently good at hunting – hmm, nice theme), Ten Numb, ships with AS, and ships that get tossed a focus from someone else.

Also this takes for granted that Jango will be doing a blue every turn, which is far from a given, even with double-arcs and boost. You have to turn around eventually, and there are obstacles in this game.

I agree that the counterplay being "Always do blues or take locks" is annoying, but I also don't know if it's always true. Always do blues or reds, unless you're pretty confident Jango's going to do a white or red. Then you can do a white. That seems a lot more doable.

1 hour ago, Dasharr said:

No, because in the case of having lock but no focus, focus results can be rerolled, which has a 50% chance of scoring a hit or crit. Jango removes one of those focus results, making it have a 0% chance of turning into a hit or crit.

I think you may have misread the text on Jango's card. He doesn't cancel a focus result. He turns a focus result to a blank, which you can then reroll.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think you may have misread the text on Jango's card. He doesn't cancel a focus result. He turns a focus result to a blank, which you can then reroll.

D'oh! OK, yes, my mistake. Sorry to anyone I may have confused. That does make the effect milder than I thought it was.

Guys, guys; he's going to be bad against RZ-2's! This makes him perfectly fair in my completely unbiased opinion