I can’t seem to make a competitive list with Tie Defenders. Thoughts?

The problem is, Ships with I5 or I6 arc dodge and it seems advanced sensors are not great on my I4 Defenders.

A lone Soontir Fel can kill 2 decked out I4 Defenders without ever having to be shot at.

I love defenders and want them to be good but it seems some combination of Vader, Fel, Dutchess, Whisper is always strictly better.

Use them as beef not aces, is my opinion.

Soontir and 2 deltas is fun.

The best I’ve ever done with the high end ones is: lambda shuttle, Rexler, and either GI or Soontir.

In what world does Soontir Fel manage to scrape the paint on a defender by himself? All you have to do is 4k indefinitely, take focus as your action, and laugh as focus+evade means he'll never hit you and eventually you'll get a potshot on him that lands.

That being said, Soontir+ 2 i1's work pretty well as a hammer and anvil force, the rest of the pilots are too expensive to take in multiples imo. I'm a huge fan of rexlar, maybe something like this:

Rexler Brath (79)
Juke (7)

Ship total: 86 Half Points: 43 Threshold: 4

Grand Inquisitor (52)
Sense (5)

Ship total: 57 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 2

Soontir Fel (54)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 56 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z196X123WWWY169X75WWY179X127WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

• Delta/Delta/OGP (Palp) is my go-to. Not a super competitive scene where I live, but I've got a very high positive win rate.
• I think I'd go with HLC on the two Defenders in the points that remain, but there are solid cases for Fire Control Systems or Collision Detectors.
  • HLC adds punch against large-medium base ships, and it also means that folks can't really pre-block your 4K.
  • FCS allows a Defender to potentially grab a lock early and keep it for a long time. If things are 1-on-1, you've got passive Evade, passive Lock, and another action (usually just focus). You basically just become an engine-of-inevitability. The problem with FCS is that it leaves a lot of points on the table... there's kind of nothing great to fill the remaining 8 points with... ColDet on the shuttle maybe.
  • Collision Detector on the Defenders really opens up their positioning. They can be a bit predictable, and being able to ignore obstacles a little gives you a lot of options.
• I like the Omicron over any other shuttle since it'll be Init 1 and you can chop-and-change your activation order as needed, maybe coordinate a Defender before it moves.
  • Coordinate is such a boss action. I haven't even considered a Reaper, since white Coordinate is too dang good.
• One Defender could pretty easily be switched for Vaderm or some other ace. A shame the Delta can't get FCS in this variant, but the Passive Sensor nerfs eat up the points.
  • Delta/OGP(Palp) leaves 79 points for some ace, 77 with FCS on the Delta. That could be Whisper with 5th Brother and Passives, or a loaded Soontir, or kinda anything except a Defender ace.
  • Vynder/Jendon/Defender fits, too. Heck, depending on loadout, you could even bring Ryad or Rexler.
    • Vynder (Plasma Torpedoes, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, FCS, AdvSlam, OS-1) 58
    • Colonel Jendon (Emperor Palpatine) 60
    • Countess Ryad (Fire Control System) 82
      • I'm not sure if I like it. Seems too fancy.

Thanks I’ll definitely try a Palp shuttle. Seems like that can keep stuff alive long enuf to win out.

Sense I have not played in S2 yet I have not seen how hard it is to get bull’s-eye arc for HLC. But I forgot there are quite a few medium base now so sounds not too hard.

I used to block with my Delta and kill with Vessery and Ryad. With 2 Delta... that will be interesting.

2 hours ago, andrewctr said:

Sense I have not played in S2 yet I have not seen how hard it is to get bull’s-eye arc for HLC. But I forgot there are quite a few medium base now so sounds not too hard.

It's mixed. I've had some games where it happens all the time, more games rarely ever.

One big part of it is active deterrent. Because your white 4K is so powerful, folks will often try to block that move. Since you're Init 1, they have to block it "in advance" with their higher Init ships. HLC means that if they're getting in front of you where your 4K would land, you'll almost surely have them in your bullseye.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Because your white 4K is so powerful, folks will often try to block that move. Since you're Init 1, they have to block it "in advance" with their higher Init ships. HLC means that if they're getting in front of you where your 4K would land, you'll almost surely have them in your bullseye.

Wow that seems really dumb. Especially sense you can just hard or soft 3 instead.... and then 4K next turn when there’s nothing they can do about it. It doesn’t seem worth getting HLCed over.

5 hours ago, andrewctr said:

Wow that seems really dumb. Especially sense you can just hard or soft 3 instead.... and then 4K next turn when there’s nothing they can do about it. It doesn’t seem worth getting HLCed over.

Sometimes you do just have to block the 4K or it'll get even worse for you. Forcing a 4k the next turn instead can maybe open a door.

I've been eyeing this as my next Defender list.

2x Procket Barons, a Scarif Base Pilot carrying Vader and a naked Rex.

200pt, so not a lot of wiggle room to play around with if it doesn't gel...

The Vader Reaper is a really cool tool. The red coord can step in and Supernatural a Baron, double mod Rex or provide him with Adv Sensor perks. It is quite a horrible blocker too ofc.

Balancing the pull of the Reaper and v1s to maximise their impact and draw out their survival, while Rex does what he needs to do to with the scoreboard, seems like it'll be the trick.

I mean, if you force the Defender to spend their focus defensively, HLC is "just" the difference between a 1.5 hit attack and a 2 hit attack. Might be worth it.

These two lists are fun to fly.

Boogie Nights:

TIE/ph Phantom - •“Echo” - 56
•“Echo” - Slippery Trickster (51)
Predator (2)
Passive Sensors (2)

TIE/D Defender - •Rexler Brath - 90
•Rexler Brath - Onyx Leader (79)
Juke (7)
Fire-Control System (2)

TIE/ph Phantom - Sigma Squadron Ace - 53
Sigma Squadron Ace - (48)
Predator (2)
Passive Sensors (2)

Total: 199/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Jukebox Heroes:

TIE/D Defender - •Rexler Brath - 90
•Rexler Brath - Onyx Leader (79)
Juke (7)
Fire-Control System (2)

TIE/ph Phantom - Sigma Squadron Ace - 55
Sigma Squadron Ace - (48)
Juke (7)

TIE/ph Phantom - Sigma Squadron Ace - 55
Sigma Squadron Ace - (48)
Juke (7)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

The App's points aren't displaying right, Boogie Nights is 195 and Jukebox is 198.

good ol' fashion double defenders 177Pts after new drops, so room for more toys if you wanted, or keep the bid

Brath

-FCS

-Juke

Ryad

-FCS

- Juke

I've spent a lot of time trying to make defender lists.
My main rules are:
1. Needs to be at least 3 ships in the list.
2. No lambdas (Lambdas are good, I just wasn't in the mood to fly them.

I came up the following. I've played it a few times and it seems really solid, and I call it "lords of lothal."
Grand Inquisitor (52)
Fire-Control System (2)

Ship total: 54 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2

Colonel Vessery (82)
Juke (7)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)

Ship total: 94 Half Points: 47 Threshold: 4

Fifth Brother (42)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)

Ship total: 49 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 2


Total: 197

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z169XW113WY194X123WW10WY394XW113W100&sn=Vess Quiz 5th bro&obs=

Basically Vessery is your heavy jouster that makes aces roll out of the way of his HLC, and I feel juke is mandatory to help push damage through if he's the last ship you have alive. Good chance he dies first because he demands the most aggro and non imperial players generally just hate defenders, so they sell out to kill them. Which leaves....

Grand Inquisitor....what else is there to say? He's so freaking good. Fire control is a must to help you preserve target locks for vessery. Fantastic end-game ship and pilot.

5th Brother: The standard build that scares aces to death. He's also good for pushing crits through on large base ships.

This list might have trouble against beef squads and swarms, so buyer beware.

Some good TIE Defender results this weekend at the large GSP tournament:

Delta/Delta/Echo(Passive Sensors, Fifth Brother) went 5-1 in Swiss

Delta (HLC)/Echo(Lone Wolf, Passive Sensors, Fifth Brother)/Grand Inquisitor (Sense) went 6-0 in Swiss

Still looking at Defender lists myself. Echo, 2x Delta has been pulling at me, seeing it do well kinda cements that deal.

The 15pt spare can be spent all sorts of ways, Passive Bro is no doubt the simplest route to efficiency. I do like the idea of Outmanouevre, FCS, TC and a 4pt bid. Good reward for continuous good positioning there. I've also really fancied Lone Wolf Echo recently. Might be trickier with the long moves of the Defenders....

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Still looking at Defender lists myself. Echo, 2x Delta has been pulling at me, seeing it do well kinda cements that deal.

The 15pt spare can be spent all sorts of ways, Passive Bro is no doubt the simplest route to efficiency. I do like the idea of Outmanouevre, FCS, TC and a 4pt bid. Good reward for continuous good positioning there. I've also really fancied Lone Wolf Echo recently. Might be trickier with the long moves of the Defenders....

2x Heavy Laser Cannon + Lone Wolf could be fun... probably not better than The Force.

FCS on Defenders is fairly cheap, and might serve as a minor punish on folks who ignore the Defenders early. FCS on the Deltas plus Lone Wolf and Collision Detector on Echo could be fun; CD on Phantoms has typically felt pretty sweet to me. If bringing Gas Clouds, it'd be really easy for Echo to just ignore them while decloaking, and probably fairly often an already dialed-in blue move would remove any strain...

Or that 4 point bid could become 2 FCS...

I was thinking to try this:

Seventh Sister (43)
Sense (5)

Onyx Squadron Ace (74)
Fire-Control System (2)

Onyx Squadron Ace (74)
Fire-Control System (2)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

2x Heavy Laser Cannon + Lone Wolf could be fun... probably not better than The Force.

FCS on Defenders is fairly cheap, and might serve as a minor punish on folks who ignore the Defenders early. FCS on the Deltas plus Lone Wolf and Collision Detector on Echo could be fun; CD on Phantoms has typically felt pretty sweet to me. If bringing Gas Clouds, it'd be really easy for Echo to just ignore them while decloaking, and probably fairly often an already dialed-in blue move would remove any strain...

Or that 4 point bid could become 2 FCS...

CD is a biìiig draw on Echo. I particularly like the way it dovetails with Trick Shot, but that combo is too much work. Still, CD is always on the list of things that might fit.

For maximum fun, I'd go CD, Afterburners and Crack Shot

I really don't know, but I get bad feels about LW with 2 Delta's. I picture the 2D on slightly different vectors, so you can switch 4ks, tag in the healthy one and maintain your 3 speed pressure. With Echo lurking and circling, I can see a Defender at R2 of her quite often. Otherwise she is maybe out of range and playing too safe, or isolated and pwnd.

FCS and Defenders is becoming a no-go for me, but I think that says more about my decision making, lol. Focusevadeshootshootshoot ftw. As long as you throw a 1 bank roll and a 5 straight boost here and there, they just do the thing

2x HLC is lovely but leaves Echo a bit flouncy. She needs to punish ALL THE THINGS that arc dodge Defenders. Ultimate punishment. But she is cheaper there and can be real awesome, aggressive bait, if you get the Defender play on the nose.

It's a cool decision making process with Echo. Passive Bro is the obvious dwywm, outside of that, there's a lot of different paths to follow.

Outmanouevre, CD, TC, hmmmm

I'll try this :

Colonel Vessery (82)
Fire-Control System (2)

Ship total: 84 Half Points: 42 Threshold: 4

Fifth Brother (42)
Passive Sensors (2)
Homing Missiles (5)

Ship total: 49 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 2

"Deathrain" (43)
Trajectory Simulator (6)
Concussion Missiles (6)
Proton Bombs (5)
Proximity Mines (6)

Ship total: 66 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 5


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z194XW113WWY394XW240W100Y192X114WW99WWW69W70W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

All Init 4, fifth Bro is giving a hard choice to your opponent (take 2 damages with the homing and leave the lock for Vessery, or take your chance against a 4 dice attack with lock and Force). Deathrain is here to bombing swarm and protect the rear, while giving another opportunity to use Vessery ability.

Flew Echo with TC, FCS, Outmanouevre and 2 bare Delta's tonight. I think I really would have liked Col Det in there..... But FCS does good things.

Beat 5 x1s. Some missiles. Experiment with Passive over FCS for them. I believe the latter might've made the difference. Echo got pegged with bad variance 1st engage, (Panicked!*), but the long haul was one way, with x1s lacking the mods to penetrate full throttle. Echo returned with a vengeance and all the x1s went away, 1 by 1.

Lost to APT Kylo, Daredevil Von Reg, Null, Rivas. 58-62, Null keeping her last hull under double Delta fire, while Echo got aced, after pulling the ion crit. A last minute swing after a couple really strong turns. Null and Von Reg were both 1hp targets on that last engage. Cracking game.

CD would have helped against the aces. The Delta's dominated the zone I put them in and never took a scratch, but they couldn't prevent a turn towards Echo from Kylo. She's kind of untouchable when you can just go anywhere on key turns.

I only needed her to live at that point but chose aggression to try and finish off one of the 2 TIE fo's.... Init killed, sad trombone.

+1 for FCS though, solid impact. Outmanouevre is horrendous with those mods. Definitely makes surprise k-turns less bad.

5th Bro is awesome on Echo, but in both games, I don't think he would have really impacted, the dice weren't there for him. Outmanouevre made big dents.

4pt bid will be useful, moving 1st against the 5 x1 was huge. Outmanouevre likes a barrel roll.

I think it's a hot tip.

*somebody captured the moment. One R3, single mod shot away, and one back. Now Echo has 5 tokens, huzzah!