@Ebak sounds like we are of the same sort. I’m a good but not great player. I just love the game.

I qualified for worlds last fall at the last chance. My main compliment while at worlds was being fun to play against and keeping spirits high. I got clobbered and went 2-3 day 1 of worlds and dropped from last round when it was getting super late and I had no shot of advancing. Played some side games the other days. Can’t wait for the next one whenever, even if I only play LCQ and side games.

10 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Saying they are a one time purchase really depends on what your expectations are. I think assuming its a 'one and done' is miselading yourself a little.

To be clear, I mean good one time purchase in that 'they are a fantastic way to get into a faction.' I think they knocked that aspect out of the park, I am razzed to try resistance. And I really am excited for Starbird Slice, because its the exact kind of card I like. I also like a lot of points changes: It feels like FFG wants to experiment with a 'midrange control' style of X-wing rather than pure aces or swarms magdumping you, and I want in.

10 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Two is reasonable if you want to field a full squad

I think 2 is the magic number for a card intended for a ship that you at most run 4 of. Case in point:

10 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Hotshots and aces included 2 B-Wing sfoil cards. I ended up purchasing that card pack twice...mostly for those Sfoils

I also got two packs. I actually saved the cards because I sometimes run the game for children and having backups is... wise.

2 S-foils is kinda the perfect number because most lists that run B-wings run 1 or 2, but you COULD run 4. So for the vast majority of players, you only need one, and that is fine, but if you really want to crack open listbuilding a second is necessary.

That feels very fair, but looking at the Resistance aces pack it seems like that won't be the case, as it looks like card count is already known and only a few cards have an x2, let alone the x3 they would need for A-wings.

For example, the ideal number of Starbird Slashes to let you quickly fill out a squad with 2 purchases (especially because as an upgrade it 'wants' to be spammed) would be 3. This also is a nice number for rebels, as an A-wing swarm is 6 but a mini swarm of 3 is a common point of experimentation. But it seems to come with a singleton, which fills me with dread, and does mean that a full squad of them for a 6A tournament play list, would cost, assuming it costs 50 bucks which I feel is a fair 'guestimate,' 300 dollars, and even a casual 'I wanna run 3 slash A-wings' would run you 150.

That is... bad. Again I don't intend to pay that exhorbitant price, nor do I intend to wait a year for a card pack to actually get rebel cards in numbers needed to actually get new rebel content to table. So if I wont buy, and won't wait even longer... I only got one option then don't I? I know some players will just swallow their pride and do it, but as someone who was on the 'why didn't they put new cards in the A-wing re-release camp, if these numbers are accurate and are going to be accurate for phoenix as well... I feel extorted after being left in the lurch for 2 years, and that isn't a fun feeling that makes me want to continue X-wing despite that hype.

Again, we are in a 'Roses and chocolates and give me one more chance' phase for FFG, not a 'buy to support all they do for X-wing' phase, for single faction OT players. I get that is hard to understand because so many players feel like X-wing is really strong right now, but really empathize with what OT players are kinda going through right now and the prices they are staring down if this info is true to get more stuff, to really grok how utterly screwed up the current status quo is and how not acceptable a solution the aces packs seem to be at introducing new content to under served factions.

Hence why I think the sweet spot is to treat reprint box cards as 'mini cardboard expansions.' I am cool with subsidizing such an expansion with a plastic purchase as long as it basically has a similar number of copies and a decent amount of cards (Ex: I think rebel A-wings getting support to put them on par with new ships would mean that they need at least one more talent options than slash, probably an extra 5-6 pilots, and maybe a new missile. This would mean 14 cards for that one ship alone, maybe), in addition to the reprint cards for new players. That isn't nothing, but it would far and away help justify me buying another few X-wings and A-wings when I legitimately do not need or really want them.

21 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

To paraphrase Ebak: I am not a god **** charity. I am not going to, and this is essentially your argument, subsidize the bad choices of FFG in terms of plastic production in order to keep the game artifically alive if it doesn't care at all about the value I percieve I am getting. This is a transactional relationship. The fact that it is convinient to you, a faction hopper who likes to get everything, that I would basically be funding the entire line by being forced to buy reprints that already had all of their production costs paid off besides running the factory and plastic, that I don't want to get new cards, doesn't mean its a good idea, that players are going to do it, or that it is good for X-wing. I would rather YOU pay an extra 10-20 dollars per ship, or for the aces packs for existing ships to be dirt cheap so that FFG could pass those savings on to me a bit.

If FFG wants to nickle and dime me over every single copy of a card intended to support my faction with new options, I ain't gunna play, and a lot of people won't play, and you will have a problem.

So like... yeah. No. Screw that opinion, this is not a 'wah' problem. I think it is completely fair to want new ways to fly existing ships that doesn't require me to spend 200 dollars to get the content for my lists. I would be willing to spend maybe 40 bucks to get a nice amount of cards in numbers needed to outfit a reasonable number of ships as a pure cardboard pack. I would be willing to spend 30 bucks to get a playeset of new cards with ONE plastic figure.

But I am not made of money, and if X-wing literally requires us to be buying reprints in those numbers so that a playset of 2-3 new cards costs 200 dollars, I hate to break it to you, but its already dead, because it is fundamentally non-profitable.

I 100% get the need to adapt reprints to be something people will actually buy. I am telling you I do not intend to buy reprints if I need to buy a ton of copies of them to get the cards, and that is bad news for you, and that I think most of the people who aren't buying reprints are telling you exactly why they won't and you don't want to hear it.

I WILL buy heralds of hope, because to me it isn't a reprint. I probably won't buy a rebel reprint pack unless its low key also a cardboard pack as well (As in: full playsets, not just enough cards to run the pack, and stuff to actually breathe new life into the faction).

I think we're getting into the territory of breaking my self imposed rule but y'know....**** it.

Yes. I am a faction hopper, please don't use that as an attack against me. I've had my fair share of having to buy expansions for items I need regardless of my faction hopping.

I'm also not suggesting you be a charity.

However the choice comes down to this: You want the card, you pay up. If you don't, you don't pay. You're not a charity, and nor is FFG. As for 'bad choices' that is, like, your opinion, man. Just because FFG are choosing to appeal to both markets with one product rather than THEM paying out to create two products to fit one problem doesn't mean that what they are doing is a bad choice for you or them.

If they make you buy 4 copies of Phoenix Squadron as there's only 1 card in each that you could feasibly use on multiple ships and there's no cheaper alternative to getting it, then sure, I will be right there backing you up because that is not acceptable. That is exploitative. However, evidence has shown that FFG are at least conscious of this and while they don't give you enough for a full list, they at least give you half to a majority.

At the end of the day, you choose what you want to invest in. However if you think you only need to buy one expansion to get 200 points worth of upgrades for a list, I think you are kidding yourself just as much as thinking you'd need to buy 4 packs for 4 copies. Evidence to the contrary shows FFG puts consideration in these 'larger packs' as they are intended as a jumpstart for newer players and a supplement for existing players.

All aces packs in first edition had multiple cards even if there was only 1 ship in that pack. For example I mentioned Rebel Aces. Although there was 1 A-Wing and 1 B-Wing model, it had enough of the new unique upgrades to support three A-Wings and 2 B-wings, roughly half a of a full squadron, a bit more in terms of the A-Wing since they could only have 5 A-Wings overall so if anything you were getting a good deal there.

FFG are also aware people are not charities, but at the same time they are going to cost things appropriately. It's rare to see someone who purchases enough to run a full squad of X. This is seen by the conversion kits where a conversion kit will cover half a list worth of each ship 'class' (for lack of a better word) so 2 X-wings, 3 A-Wings, 4 TIE Fighters.

I personally don't think you have a lot to worry about, but I also think you need to set reasonable expectations, and to expect to get enough copies to not need another pack with that card in it is unreasonable. Buying any more than two? Yes I agree, that is unreasonable and as I mentioned before the most I ever purchased was two aces expansions and that was for their specific ship upgrades. Doing more than three would be a bad move I feel for FFG. You and I have no issues about that.

I just think you're right, but exaggerating when you talk about having to buy 4 copies of a large box expansion for 4 individual copies of a card when again, evidence shows FFG knows that it's reasonable to include multiple copies.

21 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

@Ebak sounds like we are of the same sort. I’m a good but not great player. I just love the game.

I qualified for worlds last fall at the last chance. My main compliment while at worlds was being fun to play against and keeping spirits high. I got clobbered and went 2-3 day 1 of worlds and dropped from last round when it was getting super late and I had no shot of advancing. Played some side games the other days. Can’t wait for the next one whenever, even if I only play LCQ and side games.

Sometimes just playing 'for the lulz' can be a great experience. I remember at the 2018 System Open I had a few people comment on how fun it was to fly against me because I was using TIE Phantoms. Two of them to be exact. Whisper and Echo with a TIE Fighter. It was no where near competitive, but BOY did I have a lot of fun and it made people do double takes because this was towards the end of first edition where the TIE Phantom was never used.

I went I think 3 - 9 over the two days. However there is only ONE game I recall being bad and that's because the guy was a **** and cheated. That was a low point where I retired to the hotel bar for that round.

When i went back in 2019 and 2020 there were a lot of people who I recognised who came up and said hello and I love that feeling. I love the local community I am a part of but going to an event and seeing people you only see once a year all different people whose one common factor is a love for the game (and possibly Star Wars) is a great feeling. Shout out to Karlston who I see every year at the System Open, he TROUNCED me in our match. It was over in 15 minutes and he was so apologetic but it was okay because he was fun and charming.

Would I love to be world champion? Who wouldn't be; but I know my place, and I enjoy playing X-Wing, streaming X-Wing, doing commentary on X-Wing, talking about X-wing...even if I am bad at X-Wing.

5 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Sometimes just playing 'for the lulz' can be a great experience. I remember at the 2018 System Open I had a few people comment on how fun it was to fly against me because I was using TIE Phantoms. Two of them to be exact. Whisper and Echo with a TIE Fighter. It was no where near competitive, but BOY did I have a lot of fun and it made people do double takes because this was towards the end of first edition where the TIE Phantom was never used.

I don’t think I played you, but I saw some phantoms somewhere out there on a table so maybe hi! That was my last Adepticon... maybe 2021?

Quote

Would I love to be world champion? Who wouldn't be; but I know my place, and I enjoy playing X-Wing, streaming X-Wing, doing commentary on X-Wing, talking about X-wing...even if I am bad at X-Wing.

Yup; I’m super content to be the good but not great guy who everyone has fun playing with and against. I look forward to seeing some of my old opponents at worlds 202* whenever it is. Shout out to Gislí and his phantoms. That was such a fun match!

Now that epic is out, maybe I can get in on the epic side event at one of these. I skipped last worlds epic event because without huge ships it just wasn’t going to be the same.

41 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

To be clear, I mean good one time purchase in that 'they are a fantastic way to get into a faction.' I think they knocked that aspect out of the park, I am razzed to try resistance. And I really am excited for Starbird Slice, because its the exact kind of card I like. I also like a lot of points changes: It feels like FFG wants to experiment with a 'midrange control' style of X-wing rather than pure aces or swarms magdumping you, and I want in.

I think 2 is the magic number for a card intended for a ship that you at most run 4 of. Case in point:

I also got two packs. I actually saved the cards because I sometimes run the game for children and having backups is... wise.

2 S-foils is kinda the perfect number because most lists that run B-wings run 1 or 2, but you COULD run 4. So for the vast majority of players, you only need one, and that is fine, but if you really want to crack open listbuilding a second is necessary.

That feels very fair, but looking at the Resistance aces pack it seems like that won't be the case, as it looks like card count is already known and only a few cards have an x2, let alone the x3 they would need for A-wings.

For example, the ideal number of Starbird Slashes to let you quickly fill out a squad with 2 purchases (especially because as an upgrade it 'wants' to be spammed) would be 3. This also is a nice number for rebels, as an A-wing swarm is 6 but a mini swarm of 3 is a common point of experimentation. But it seems to come with a singleton, which fills me with dread, and does mean that a full squad of them for a 6A tournament play list, would cost, assuming it costs 50 bucks which I feel is a fair 'guestimate,' 300 dollars, and even a casual 'I wanna run 3 slash A-wings' would run you 150.

That is... bad. Again I don't intend to pay that exhorbitant price, nor do I intend to wait a year for a card pack to actually get rebel cards in numbers needed to actually get new rebel content to table. So if I wont buy, and won't wait even longer... I only got one option then don't I? I know some players will just swallow their pride and do it, but as someone who was on the 'why didn't they put new cards in the A-wing re-release camp, if these numbers are accurate and are going to be accurate for phoenix as well... I feel extorted after being left in the lurch for 2 years, and that isn't a fun feeling that makes me want to continue X-wing despite that hype.

Again, we are in a 'Roses and chocolates and give me one more chance' phase for FFG, not a 'buy to support all they do for X-wing' phase, for single faction OT players. I get that is hard to understand because so many players feel like X-wing is really strong right now, but really empathize with what OT players are kinda going through right now and the prices they are staring down if this info is true to get more stuff, to really grok how utterly screwed up the current status quo is and how not acceptable a solution the aces packs seem to be at introducing new content to under served factions.

Hence why I think the sweet spot is to treat reprint box cards as 'mini cardboard expansions.' I am cool with subsidizing such an expansion with a plastic purchase as long as it basically has a similar number of copies and a decent amount of cards (Ex: I think rebel A-wings getting support to put them on par with new ships would mean that they need at least one more talent options than slash, probably an extra 5-6 pilots, and maybe a new missile. This would mean 14 cards for that one ship alone, maybe), in addition to the reprint cards for new players. That isn't nothing, but it would far and away help justify me buying another few X-wings and A-wings when I legitimately do not need or really want them.

I looked for a breakdown of the contents and couldn't find anything anywhere. The only thing we know is in there with multiple copies is integrated S-foils...because two X-Wings.

There is the face down pile. So there could, COULD be 2 or 3 copies of the card. For a full squad you need 6, depending on the cost. If the card costs 2 points, its impossible and you'd have to go down to 5. Of course that's difficult to place in regards of fluctuating points.

I think its safe to say there will be at least two copies, with a hope towards three. One thing that is important to point out, this is a Resistance pack and a Squadron Pack. We don't know what the 'Aces' style packs are going to be like. We don't know if Squadron packs are going to be the Aces packs or if they will be their own distinctly branded product. It COULD be argued that this is a point of entry pack, so including more than 1 would be unreasonable because you only have 1 A-Wing. My argument against that FFG is: It's not in the Resistance A-Wing pack.

I think two is reasonable to expect, with three copies being hopeful. I don't think FFG will force you to buy 6 to get 6. I also think you'll be fine with three copies at most if you are planning to run an all A-Wing squadron, that means players can buy two packs and cover most of their list.

Just for the record. I do have a personal stake in this. My favourite ship that is associated with my in my local community? Rebel A-Wings. I've regularly flown all A-Wing squads so I am also excite for this card. We'll see if the value is there. Don't let us down FFG.

As for your comment on the Rebel A-Wing squadron pack. I think you'll be looking at a similar thing where two copies of the pack will outfit a full squad. 14 cards in one pack is essentially half the pack. Let's not forget you can't fit more than 6 Rebel A-Wings in a list (7 takes it to 203), and the Phoenix Squadron only has one talent slot. So if we go on the basis of Green Squadrons...we end up at 6 with 192 points. Thats 8 points split across 12 slots. Which is not possible unless they are 0 point upgrades which are a rarity. That being said I think it's therefore reasonable to expect 3 copies of two talents. 6 cards overall to outfit over half a squad. Which is also not an unreasonable number of upgrades for these expansions. That is my opinion though.

Ideally I'd like 3 new talents for the A-Wing, but thats 9 cards total and starting to push it towards 9 cards for just one chassis when you have other possible upgrade slots and presumably a second (and maybe third?) ship to support with upgrades. These large boxes can have between 30 to 50 upgrades depending. 30 for more unique cards and 50 if there are lot of reprinted cards from already existing packs.

It's impossible to say for certainty, but I think you are fairly safe with 'half a squads worth' of upgrades for that ship class being in that pack. If not...tut tut FFG.

Edit: As a thought experiment I went through the list of 'large box' expansions to find the biggest ones:
Large base ship: Scimitar with 22 upgrades, 8 duplicates. So in total 16 unique cards.
Squadron Pack: Guardians of the Republic with 51 cards, 37 are duplicates, 31 unique cards.

It is worth pointing out the Guardians did have a lot of reprinted cards seen in the conversion kits, so Ion Canon, Lone Wolf etc which the resistance pack doesn't have.

17 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I don’t think I played you, but I saw some phantoms somewhere out there on a table so maybe hi! That was my last Adepticon... maybe 2021?

Yup; I’m super content to be the good but not great guy who everyone has fun playing with and against. I look forward to seeing some of my old opponents at worlds 202* whenever it is. Shout out to Gislí and his phantoms. That was such a fun match!

Now that epic is out, maybe I can get in on the epic side event at one of these. I skipped last worlds epic event because without huge ships it just wasn’t going to be the same.

Unlikely to be me. The only large event i go to is the UK system open.

@Ebak drat! Oh well, nice to see some fellow Casuals at the big events even across the ocean

I wonder if this makes me the enemy.

On the wiki I regularly recommend new players proxy cards they don't have, and even recommend it to established players. I advise players to chase the ships that interest them and buy expansions for those ships, not the cards. This drops their commitment from hundreds or thousands of dollars down to just a hundred or couple hundred, and keeps them invested in the game they want to play instead of daunted by how much they can't access (without proxying). Cards matter for tournament play, and for those situations the proxy player will either have to borrow or pay up. But beyond that, for god's sake, proxy.

That's maybe not a great thing for me to say, from FFG's perspective? But it gets players into the game who would otherwise never give it a second thought, for cost reasons. And helps keep those players from leaving. I know local players who are teachers or others struggling with income, and still they love this game. I give them cards they're missing if I have spares, and I have no problem with them borrowing or proxying anything they need. I'm one of the hated faction hoppers: I purchase every expansion, sometimes twice if I especially love the ship (Hello there, Hyena!), so it's easy to divvy out spares. I play on Tabletop Simulator occasionally and I recommend that for experimenting and just getting games in during these troubling times. But the physical game with people I know is just better . It's a lot more fun to be with people, and that's coming from a recovering pathological introvert.

I am a super-casual player, having become ever more casual with time and exposure to the meta's merciless gatekeepers. There's just too much cool stuff I want to try out, and I get overwhelmingly tired of flying the same crap every game just to compete with the tippy-top winner fleets. So that may uhh... exclude me from the conversation since the main need for card ownership is those tournaments. And some players are just sticklers for having the cards, I guess. But by ****, any time I can convince people to proxy in order to ease their x-wing experience, I will try ! In our non-official tournaments, I have no problem with people proxying because literally the only barrier is money, not skill. And if we can't allow proxying for any reason, I will loan players what they need.

For tournament players, card chasing can become pretty expensive. Like, how many people have multiple U-Wings they don't need because Expertise was mandatory for their 1.0 tournament fleet? Or Kihraxz fighters and no scum fleet to go with them because Harpoons were necessary in the meta? That creates a financial barrier to competition, and I'm hostile to that despite my technically having the cash to play. I just... wouldn't play like that, and people with less money shouldn't have to either. When I played MTG I never played tournaments because $300 or more per deck sounded like a suicide of the intellect. There's no way in **** I'd bother to keep up.

But for what it's worth, FFG has done a pretty good job so far. Not perfect, but far better than 1.0's grievances, and I suspect that even with the adjusted direction they're not going to go full gouge. We're still not playing a lootbox game; you know exactly what you're getting before you purchase, and that helps a ton. Here's hoping there will be 2 - 3 cards per expansion when multiple are necessary, or that those cards will come in another form that's better. Because I don't want people being priced out of the tournament scene.

And for casual players, I will continue pushing hard for them to proxy, because card chasing too often leads to financial exhaustion and eventually resenting their investment in the game and leaving. Buy primarily for the ships, and get some card packs too but don't buy multiple copies unless you're in it for the tournaments.

Thanks for the reply @Wazat , actually I don’t think that makes you the enemy at all. What you suggest is 100% reasonable and what I’ve done before.

also, off topic but I’d appreciate your perspective on what you meant by gatekeeping within the tourney scene. Mostly for idle curiosity, I don’t follow it enough to really know about that kinda stuff.

Anyway, I went hard into X-Wing in general and have made a lot of purchases over the years and in first that meant I was often the player loaning out stuff to new players and even older players that just needed that one card. My time in tournaments is not common. I tend to be a weird middle ground between a dedicated player and a casual.

when I moved to second edition I purchased two conversion kits for each faction...two kits for each faction. Needless to say I e dead up with a LOT of upgrades that I didn’t need. I just have them away to new players as they needed them.

Proxing is something I 100% endorse in casual play. Who the **** cares what cards you do or don’t have. Tournaments are a little different but as mentioned people should help each other out which is what I have done over the years, we’re talking official here not a casual tourney between friends.
@Jarval , did the quickfires have this restriction?

I also think FFG have been better across second edition as a whole.

that being said, I think there is a limit to proxing. This is something I actually had a go at a couple of friend over. There was a point I was supporting two new players, around wave 5 in first edition. They didn’t have any stuff of their own and pretty much required I lend them the stuff to use.

However, this went on for months. For MONTHS and they got nothing of their own. I eventually reached a breaking point. Now these two guys are my closest friends so I basically told them straight that I could not provide them with everything forever. One of them was waiting for scum which while I appreciated...he still needed his damage deck. The other took the hint and got his own stuff and still plays to this day. The other...not so much but that’s due to household situations.

Proxying is important to the health of a game, particularly for new players. However, if it’s the 12th week in a row I’ve seen you proxing that card...maybe....just maybe you should think of coughing up the cash for it? I don’t think it’s unreasonable that you’ve been getting consistent enjoyment out of that component, it’s not unreasonable that you should pay for that.

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

also, off topic but I’d appreciate your perspective on what you meant by gatekeeping within the tourney scene. Mostly for idle curiosity, I don’t follow it enough to really know about that kinda stuff.

So a gatekeeper is a fleet (or type of fleet) that keeps lots of other fleets out of the meta because they just can't stand against it. Every list has a hard counter, but a gatekeeper is a hard counter for many lists and it's consistently in the meta keeping them out. For example, there are lots of fleets that would approach meta-viable if it weren't for the Aces lists that can pick them apart, or the vulture swarm that will consistently make them lose the joust they're built around, etc. Those types of lists have dominated the meta for quite some time, and hence they've defined what can be in the meta over that long period of time.

If you build a fleet you'd like to take to a tournament, you need to practice against a variety of opponents like beef (lots of healthy ships like b-wings and x-wings), swarms, and anything else that might be strong in the meta at the moment (be it a specific fleet like Boba-Fenn, or something general like munitions alpha-strikers). But aces are a constant, they'll always have a role in the meta; as I understand it, this is deliberate on FFG's part (everything is supposedly balanced around aces, and aces are where they want them to be). (Example ace lists include jedi in all their iterations like anakin-obiwan-optional buddy, vader + friends, kylo+quickdraw+grand inquisitor, etc)

Cagey Aces (my term for aces that fly very skittishly, staying away and refusing to engage nearly the whole game, waiting until they have the perfect opportunity) are one of the most challenging playstyles to face in the meta, and their mere presence means any fleet that does poorly against them likely won't even bother showing up. They're not easy to fly, but once you figure them out and develop the patience and timing sense to do well with them, you've got strong odds in your favor. There's not much out there that has a good time against them. And they tend to hard-counter most of the types of lists I like to fly. C'est la vie.

I've been told straight up from someone on these forums (I think Blail Blerg?) that if my fleet cannot beat the top aces lists at least 50% of the time consistently, then it's garbage .

So that's a gatekeeper: they determine who can even have a chance to compete in the meta. If one of your hard counters is a gatekeeper, you either switch tournament lists, don't play in tournaments, or go in knowing full well you will not do well. (Which I've done a couple of times, e.g. with Wullffwarro War Crimes, just to see how far I could get).

That's a big reason why I'm a FFC (filthy f****** casual) and proud of it. I really don't care to live by the strict rules of the meta; I prefer to explore lots of fun stuff instead. Once you step a level or two down from the top meta, the entire game opens up to you and you can fly auzitucks, kimogilas, TIE Advanced that aren't Vader, etc.

Also I'm too lazy to practice the same fleet 6x a week.

/rant

2 hours ago, Ebak said:

However, this went on for months. For MONTHS and they got nothing of their own.

Yea, at that point they probably need to stop borrowing and start diving into the game themselves. Though they may not have understood you were waiting for them to buy in. Some people are used to one person providing the game they're all playing. On x-wing days you're providing x-wing, and at another time they may provide the game they have (e.g. Warhammer, Arkham Horror, etc).

2 hours ago, Ebak said:

when I moved to second edition I purchased two conversion kits for each faction...two kits for each faction. Needless to say I e dead up with a LOT of upgrades that I didn’t need.

Haha, yea. I eventually dove all in too... Initially I tried to start small, but I was so impressed with the game I saw, I dove in hard and I regret nothing. 2.0's been overall fantastic! And having a few billion spare cards means I can be generous to my buddies who can't afford to splurge like that, and to any new players who are flirting with the game.

On 8/4/2020 at 4:36 AM, Wazat said:

That's a big reason why I'm a FFC (filthy f****** casual) and proud of it. I really don't care to live by the strict rules of the meta; I prefer to explore lots of fun stuff instead. Once you step a level or two down from the top meta, the entire game opens up to you and you can fly auzitucks, kimogilas, TIE Advanced that aren't Vader, etc.

Also I'm too lazy to practice the same fleet 6x a week.

I CANNOT HEART THIS ENOUGH.

On 8/4/2020 at 2:02 AM, Ebak said:

Proxing is something I 100% endorse in casual play. Who the **** cares what cards you do or don’t have. Tournaments are a little different but as mentioned people should help each other out which is what I have done over the years, we’re talking official here not a casual tourney between friends.
@Jarval , did the quickfires have this restriction?

With the Quickfire events, I've generally taken a "borrow cards if you can, proxy if you can't" approach. While they're technically tournaments, they're more "let's reliably get three good games in a single evening" events with a dash of tournament practice on the side.

More broadly speaking, I'm happy with extensive card proxying if needed (as long as both players know what's in each list), don't mind base proxies if suitably indicated, but I'm generally less than keen on dial proxies as they're a faff to get to work well (although I don't mind them for experimental games with stuff that hasn't been released yet).

6 hours ago, Jarval said:

With the Quickfire events, I've generally taken a "borrow cards if you can, proxy if you can't" approach. While they're technically tournaments, they're more "let's reliably get three good games in a single evening" events with a dash of tournament practice on the side.

More broadly speaking, I'm happy with extensive card proxying if needed (as long as both players know what's in each list), don't mind base proxies if suitably indicated, but I'm generally less than keen on dial proxies as they're a faff to get to work well (although I don't mind them for experimental games with stuff that hasn't been released yet).

The stuff I proxy most often is what prints out from a list builder: pilots and upgrades (and their errata, god bless the list builders). I own the cards but I'm too lazy to get them out. I'll allow flying bases without the model too as long as it's clear (people typically have the bases and dials to fly anything because of the conversion kit, just lacking the spare models). Bases I'll proxy if I happen to be short, but it's got to be clear what's what.

But proxying a dial is a real challenge; that's better to pull out of the box. Like you said, useful for someone who's homebrewing something neat, but beyond that it's better to have the dial.

I just want to add something I learned from LEGO: if you don't have the piece you want, look for a creative replacement. I don't have a gazillion copies of all LEGO elements, so when I run short, I consider different ways of building to get the desired shape. In fact, the LEGO Group had issues in the late 90s/early 2000s because the designers were requesting so many specialty parts to be produced that it cost the company a lot of money. Eventually they cut back on their catalogue of elements and introduced a rigorous process for approving designs of new elements that could be used in lots of different ways.

I see similarities to this concept in squad building. Do I really want another A-wing or TIE interceptor to fill out my 200 points? Or do I wish I had one more copy of some upgrade card? Sure I do! But if you shuffle things around and get creative you start to learn things about the game you would otherwise miss entirely. Try a different upgrade, or see what happens when other ships fly alongside your mini swarm of you can't afford the full swarm yet.

Actually come to think of it, this is what Hyperspace makes us do, and the fellow TIE striker fans have been putting Ruthless of all things to good use. Pretty neat.

Of course, many players with small collections have tried a bunch of combinations already, and if they are ready to proxy I'm okay with that, too.

Edit: this thought was spurred by comments regarding the potentially limited number of copies of Starbird Slash in Heralds of Hope. Yes, it would be fun to fly a swarm of S-Slashing A-wings, but it is also interesting to figure out which two pilots would function best with the upgrade if you only had a couple of copies. Or if you have only generics, where do you deploy your Starbird Slash A-wings in relation to the others? These questions help you figure out what you want to accomplish, and to evaluate how you played to see if you got it. This leads to improved skill at the game.

18 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Edit: this thought was spurred by comments regarding the potentially limited number of copies of Starbird Slash in Heralds of Hope. Yes, it would be fun to fly a swarm of S-Slashing A-wings, but it is also interesting to figure out which two pilots would function best with the upgrade if you only had a couple of copies. Or if you have only generics, where do you deploy your Starbird Slash A-wings in relation to the others? These questions help you figure out what you want to accomplish, and to evaluate how you played to see if you got it. This leads to improved skill at the game.

The issue is this is entirely an unsatisfactory answer to anyone who is upset that:

1: An iconic ship has been frankly not good for 2+ years, and this upgrade is nominally meant to get them to a place they are meant to be, which presumably means that it is going to be 'presumed default' on A-wings and is why they didn't get a price reduction despite Barons of the Empire now costing less than A-wings which is a 'lol whut' moment. In that scenario, you might still get away with 1 generic A-wing, but if Slash is baked into the A-wing's price as a pseudo-config then you really have no choice and 'experimenting with mixing it' is just making your list weaker, and the A-wing's main issue is that its too weak despite being a potentially interesting ship.

2: Rebel players (and Empire as well, obviously) who have not been able to get a single new thing for their collection really already are getting stupid creative with their lists because there is nothing else they can do . Telling them to 'get creative and try new things with the stuff they have' is a crit fail on empathizing with those players.

This perception of the problem as a 'Just play around it' issue misses the entire reason people are ticked at the moment. Other factions, especially if you entered them from owning a conversion kit of an OT faction, have an embarrassment of riches and options and it does not feel good to be offered scraps and then get told to 'get creative' or 'just proxy them.' It doesn't solve the issue, it makes it worse because that isn't how the rest of the playerbase is really being treated.

3: The A-wing is already a very heavily explored ship and it does not look remotely likely that it would be worth it to partially run the slash, because what it offers is a way for an A-wing to contribute to a fight vs a target it is unlikely to hurt and won't be able to bump, which is a thing the chasis sorely needs. Combined with the lack of price reduction, and its clear any experimentation would end in failure with that option, which is exactly what we have seen with other subpar 'It exists to let you experiment bro' response. Why are rebel players forced to desperately try to find something that can make an iconic ship, let alone their entire faction work, when they brute force it for every other faction and make stuff that is clearly extremely good for them and make it easy to run and obtain?

Saying 'Just proxy it' or 'You can experiment' is a critical failure of empathy here. I know I could do either of those things, but I am deeply uncomfortable with proxying personally despite actively encouraging other people to do it, and already am at my limits with experimentation when its so clear I will always get a negative result.

The issue is if the game so actively despises my faction choice that it is going to wring me (potentially, slash could be a x3 in phoenix and heralds, but that doesn't even solve the greater problem it just avoids a 'Defcon 1 players are definitely going to quit the game over this' scenario) dry for 150 bucks to get 3 pieces of cardboard, I don't want to keep playing it, because I am actively being mistreated in order to subsidize the experience of other players: I would much rather them charge 50 bucks for the PT ships if they are so strung up for cash so the people who are actually buying the ships to use them are paying for their creation. If you think that they literally can't sell those ships at a price to make money without wringing cash out of other players who don't want them, perhaps they shouldn't have made them then.

In a different context, like if we just got H&A and it had really good stuff and all of it was seeing play in rebel, or if we just got a cardboard pack, or were getting one next wave and it didn't include the slash this time, sure I could suck it up and just wait a bit for something for me, because I was being supported in other ways. That is the current status quo for all the non-OT factions, so I get why people who mostly play them are confused as to why OT faction players are so miffed. But like... for real, think about it from an OT perspective for 5 seconds, rather than trying to 'solve the problem' without actual structural changes as your first step.

BTW my post about proxying wasn't meant to be dismissive @dezzmont or claim that fixes it. It's more "the reality is I recommend players not go card chasing, because crap like this makes it unsustainable and drives people out of the game". Proxying is deadly necessary with the difficulty of obtaining the cards or enough copies of cards to fly the fleets people want to fly. Ideally that shouldn't be such an obstacle, but it is, so I push lots of people (especially new players) to proxy to get past it. FFG still makes their money off of players who will buy at least one of every expansion, tournament players, etc, but for casual play there's no need to devastate your wallet trying to chase excessively scarce cards.

FFG requiring players to have all the cards they need to fly a fleet when some cards are scarce and expensive to collect in sufficient numbers... I agree that this should not be FFG's financial plan, because it will drive players out when they desperately need to draw players in. I get that it's not going to change in tournaments, but by god, I'll push for proxying in all other aspects because (as you've said) a player shouldn't have to buy 4+ of the same expansion to get the cards they need to outfit their team.

But I'm cautiously optimistic -- we've yet to see card counts for certain (remember, if there's no errors in FFG promotional material, it's counterfeit), and FFG could always adjust on hearing player concerns. Ideally people would be using the Contact FFG feature to ask such questions or otherwise reach them since, as I understand it, they don't follow conversations here.

Yeah. I get it. I just personally hate proxying. It makes me feel uncomfortable, even though I am ok with other people doing it and actively encourage them. For me, something in my dumb reptile brain makes me feel 'gross' for doing it myself. I like supporting games and having stuff, for me games are very tactile.

The exception is like... using 1 card on 3 ships (ironically) but I also don't like the idea of having to chase cards to play in tournaments.

But to be clear the angst about the potential of needing to buy 150 dollars worth of ships for 3 cards is more symptomatic of the greater problem of 'OT players have... pretty actively been treated like complete trash due to the lack of cardboard focused products and the continued desire to somehow force reprints because reprints could potentially be extremely profitable due to the economics of mini sales focusing heavily on up front costs of sculpts' wouldn't be fixed by the pack coming with a full 6, forget about the realistic 3 I think we could all be happy with. It would be a good START, but even maintaining a status quo is completely unacceptable at this point.

Again, FFG needs to be doing way better than 'not making it worse' right now, because I think OT are quickly entering and moving through the 'they could still win us back if they do something dramatic ' phase. This scenario heavily resembles the cause of death of a lot of new card games that quickly die: In order to push product they do their best to force you to buy new stuff by refusing to support the old stuff, but that just devalues the collection and suddenly you effectively have no investment in the game. I sincerely think my rebel collection at this point lacks value, and I need to be proven wrong, not told to 'figure it out, here is one new card every 3 month if you jump for it and buy crap you don't want.' Which I know isn't what anyone is saying, but it sure feels like it.

If my only option to support the game and officially get new content is to buy crap I don't want, I am not only not going to support the game, I am unlikely to support my local scene. It is a buzzkill, it means I am not excited for the future of X-wing because a strong message of these choices is 'The future of X-wing does not include players like you.'

3 hours ago, dezzmont said:

But to be clear the angst about the potential of needing to buy 150 dollars worth of ships for 3 cards is more symptomatic of the greater problem of 'OT players have... pretty actively been treated like complete trash due to the lack of cardboard focused products and the continued desire to somehow force reprints because reprints could potentially be extremely profitable due

I sincerely think my rebel collection at this point lacks value, and I need to be proven wrong, not told to 'figure it out, here is one new card every 3 month if you jump for it and buy crap you don't want.' Which I know isn't what anyone is saying, but it sure feels like it.

First, I understand how unfun it must be to not have any new content outside of a single Hotshots & Aces. You have my sympathy.

The reprints aren’t so much because of the sculpt costs: in fact of the small base rebel ships the only one that is the same sculpt is the RZ1. The t65 and b-wing articulate now, and the Y has a much better turret. I’m not saying that is reason to buy them over if you have a lot of them, but that does conflict with your claim about reduced costs on sculpting.

I think the reprints was they planned on having new players come in that didn’t come in the same quantities they wanted. Also, there honestly aren’t a ton of rebel ships to fetch and use: it would make more sense to make more Ace packs with new pilots and upgrades (which they should have done sooner for sure, but at least it’s coming with Phoenix).

I still see rebel lists being played, thus they still have value. Even if they don’t get new content, they seem to stay relevant.

Again, that doesn’t excuse ffg for what they are doing. But that seems to be the situation.

13 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I think the reprints was they planned on having new players come in that didn’t come in the same quantities they wanted .

This is definitely part of it. They also made some less than optimal choices. The jm5k was in the 1st ed timeout why reprint it? The most popular 1st edition tie defender list was 3 defenders now you can only have 2. So of course players will sell, gift, or trade the extras. So again why reprint it?

I have a feeling that sales and design aren't always on the same page. I think its difficult for them to forecast demand for reprints.

18 hours ago, dezzmont said:

3: The A-wing is already a very heavily explored ship and it does not look remotely likely that it would be worth it to partially run the slash,

Saying 'Just proxy it' or 'You can experiment' is a critical failure of empathy here.

What are you basing this on? The starbrid slash is designed to maximize the rz2 capabilities it isn't an rz1 fix. This card is designed for a chassis that can move through, focus/lock, and change its arc that also has access to heroic and advanced optics. In addition rz2's will also have 3 initiative 5 pilots that have a good chance of moving last (denying their opponent the opportunity to remove the strain before shooting). Even if they scale for initiative the rz1 is unable to fully take advantage of the talent. So it's cool that they can use it but it will be priced for the rz2 not the rz1.

The card is great for Arvel because there are lists where its difficult for him to get the bump. I see it working well with 2 blockers to help Wedge, braylen, or other heavy hitters make a kill box or ideally push damage through.

I dont see how 6 phoenix cell pilots with starbird slash will work. Your going to either fly through and engage a different ship to get mods or sloop and throw 2-3 unmodded dice. Most lists in the current meta will do a blue maneuver remove the strain and focus fire at your ordinance carrying awings or focused awings. In the case of firesprays and TIE/SF they may punish your unmodded ships.

I think that is why people are recommending that you proxy. I could be wrong (trust me it wouldnt be the first time).

I do believe that you have very valid criticisms. I just think your overestimating what this will do for rz1s.

5 hours ago, reqent said:

I just think your overestimating what this will do for rz1s

A literal quote from the livestream was that they made it just require A-wing rather than RZ-2 to help breath life into the RZ-1s.

Yes, it might be bad. They said the same thing about snap shot as well, and that pissed me off too when it sucked, and honestly if this ISN'T good on the RZ-1 then FFG will have a problem. At a certain point FFG needs to actually take faction balance seriously before we get a "Priest lives matter" situation like HS did (Oh boy did that slogan trivialize a major issue and not age well). When a faction and core parts of its identity get no support and are allowed to sit as trash for a very long time, failures get amplified because it goes from 'a mistake' to 'actively not caring about the problem.' They have had 2 years to realize that A-wings utterly don't fulfill their fantasy. Starbird Slashes are a very 'A-wingy' upgrade that could also help solve a major issue with the ship and its disconnect from its own fantasy, which points changes could never solve.

A-wings have the ability to double repo or mod-repo but are... blockers and thus can't generally use that ability. And blocking was a weird niche to base the entire ship around when that was basically an interpretation of what Arvel did with it and had nothing to do with the ship in pretty much any other Star Wars media, where they were all about flying cricles around people and scouting. And their lack of ability to consistently do damage means their impact is bad any time the meta requires you to be able to push damage hard because of strong defenses, so a lot of the time its Jake or nothing, and Jake, while a great ship that fits the whole rebel identity really well, doesn't really do a lot to 'show off' the A-wing as an interceptor platform, he often 'dances in place' to help pass buffs rather than actually fly the A-wing like it is 'supposed' to fly. It isn't even about 'A wing-swarms.' A-wing duos and trios supporting other ships should be a thing: Mixed ship fleets are iconic to how rebels work, and the A-wing in lore was meant to be a powerful complement to heavier fighters like the X-wing (This is also why Alphabet squadron trying to hammer home that mixed fighter wings are silly is... dumb... because like... that isn't actually how it works... but I digress) by essentially flanking for it using their superior speed. This doesn't really work out in the tabletop that well, but Starbird Slash inherently encourages you to have a beefy attacker staring your opponent down, especially because that discourages dialing blue.

There is a lot of reason to think Slashes will help regular As out as much as RZ-2s. RZ-2s obviously still would be better, but it is a classic example of how buffing two things can close a gap: You add 1 to two numbers and their proportional gap closes even as the absolute gap stays the same. A big problem with RZ1s isn't 'why not just run RZ-2s?' but 'Why run them at all in rebel?' It is clear if you want to run an A-wing swarm, you run it in resistance. But Starbird slash gives a compelling reason to run it in rebel, because it gives rebels access to a (hypothetically, assuming its costed around intimidation prices) 32 point 'offensive mod' that doesn't require mega-high risk bumping with an ultra-fragile ship and instead puts the counterplay into your opponent being forced to dial blue which makes them more predictable. While rear shots are a fun and key part of the RZ-2's power (Along with heroic and AO), I don't think it is fair to say this was 'made to maximize the RZ-2's capabilities. It just happens that the RZ-2 is a good ship and any good upgrade is going to help it more by nature. If the Phoenix Pack came out first I don't think people would be saying 'Why is this RZ-2 upgrade in a rebels ship package?'

Tt isn't hard to imagine 'incidental flyover' scenarios that help add value to the RZ1's speed and repositionability that work despite low initiative: Fly over that ship to get to the crew carrier and give your other ships a buff to hitting. Help another RZ-1 deal with a ship better while you flip over to get on target. Ect. It also helps one of the more negative aspects of the RZ-1 just being completely a dead ship for 2 turns offense wise before dying: Unlike snapshot people actually care about losing defense dice most of the time because defensive modding gets stronger the more dice you have, and even vs 1 defense dice its a value add (And, more importantly, A-wings don't need too much help vs 1 defense ships!), so even if you know your A-wing will miss all its shots, you can FORCE things to happen with good positioning, even if it is as simple as 'making someone do a blue, or take 1 more damage.

I don't think 6 Phoenix will be good with it. But it, nominally, is a piece of content specifically intended to help a ship that everyone wants to be good that isn't, that didn't get buffed this points wave for no reason, in a faction that got literally nothing new. So I think it is completely fair to want to get access to a handfull of em in a single pack, as it moves 'Not Jake' A-wings closer towards, if not meta status, viability.

Hey guys,

Obviously, a lot of us have pretty strong feelings about the production state of X-Wing and 2e.

Andrew Navarro was a pillar of 2e since the twilight of 1e.

He left ffg less than a year into 2e (end of 2019).

I completely expect the production and development of X-Wing to shift according to the company's needs... Frankly, y'all, we're lucky to still have a game at all.

Hopefully wave 7 will do a lot to save this game in the midst of a pandemic.

My initial review of wave 7/7.5 and 8 is is that it's contents are a combination of premeditated and reactionary, both from a meta-analysis/game design and also financially.

Buy what you want people, but try not to get too worked up about things not yet in card packs.

It's alllllll gonna be okay.

I agree with you @Bucknife and I do think they are in a transition phase where they realised the reprints were not meeting the needs of themselves or players. New players weren't buying them, new players didn't need them and the repaint wasn't enough to inspire some sales from older members and so they are in the process of shifting and changing their business model when it comes to reprints and older factions.

I do think it is going to be okay in the long run so long as you are okay buying a big pack of ships, and a card pack now and then. I definitely think more cardboard stuff is on the way given the response to Hotshots and Aces. FFG needs data and metrics in order to measure their situation and with the lead time on design it often means it takes awhile for that to ripple out to us the consumer.

@Parakitor raised some great points I will agree with @dezzmont in this respect though, even if it may not be optimal, someone should at least have the option to play a squad of Starbird Slash if they want, the issue is how you go about getting those cards.

Do I think FFG should shove 6 copies of Starbird slash into the Heralds of Hope, and the Phoenix Squadron pack? Of course not. I think 3 is the magic number, but even 2 is okay, 1 is unacceptable. However, the reality is we just don't know how much we will get in those packs yet. I do think that a full squadron of Starbird Slashing A-Wings won't work due to them being more beneficial on the RZ-2. That being said I think it's a very good indication that the Phoenix Squadron pack will have stuff for the RZ-1 A-Wing given that ship is closely associated with Phoenix Squadron and needs more help than the B-Wing at this point but that is me also making assumptions that we just don't know about.

On 8/6/2020 at 10:44 PM, dezzmont said:

I get it. I just personally hate proxying. It makes me feel uncomfortable, even though I am ok with other people doing it and actively encourage them.

You have presented an issue that you may not be able to get the cards you need without buying multiple packs, irrespective of the amount of packs you will have to buy or knowing the copies we'll get in said packs. We have provided a casual solution to that problem. If your response to that offered solution is "I don't feel comfortable with that" for me, a solution has been offered that doesn't impede you financially, which was your original problem, but now you're saying it's an issue of personal conscious. That's kind of on you. I do feel the same way. I'd rather have the cards myself, but in casual, a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do if he wants to fly certain lists. Furthemore the idea of being uncomfortable with proxing is laughable given your next statement:

On 8/6/2020 at 10:20 PM, dezzmont said:

I don't want to keep playing it, because I am actively being mistreated in order to subsidize the experience of other players: I would much rather them charge 50 bucks for the PT ships if they are so strung up for cash so the people who are actually buying the ships to use them are paying for their creation.

So, I don't think the issue is entirely the creation of plastic. FFG still need to sell the plastic ship because it's not a good business move for them to say to new players "Buy a 1st Edition ship and a conversion kit" to get a first edition ship into the game even though that content is no longer being produced. It's also not worked out just having that ship rereleased in second edition with nothing new in its pack. So they need a product that works for both new and old players and they seem to think the solution is a pack of 3 minis with a lot of cards of content presumably new and old. We don't really know as FFG are in the transitional phase as mentioned above.

You're not subsidising PT or ST players. You are paying a cost to get new content that is part of a living game, whether you choose buy out of faction or wait for a card pack/in faction release is up to you, and if your issue is I don't need those minis...well someone else does. Sell them on if it bothers you so much but I'd rather this than a new player be told "Okay, go to 10 stores around town looking for A-Wing, then you'll need to find a conversion kit, then you'll need the phoenix squadron card pack..."

Furthermore, I also think it is highly arrogant of you to say that about prequel faction (and by extension, sequel faction) players. There are new players who got into the game because of that faction. Certainly if I were them I'd raise an eyebrow if I looked on a shelf and saw that 1 Vulture Droid expansion costs twice or three times as much as 1 X-Wing expansion. You're being very disingenuous to your fellow players then for the sake of yourself.

You're basically saying "Make it their problem, not mine." which is again, extremely arrogant and is a further reminder of what I despise the overall Star Wars fandom because Original Trilogy fans think they are Gods gift to the fandom itself and everything should revolve around them and ignore the pithy prequels and sequel stuff, they don't matter...

-- Break to let my blood stop boiling --

I get it, I do agree that OT players should get more content. A card pack a year is not unreasonable especially if it covers multiple factions in that one pack. Nor is squadron releases unreasonable. I do disagree about 'every faction getting something every couple of waves' because the ratio has to be new factions 2 to 1 for old factions. Rebel and Imperial already have a lot of stuff, the other factions need to catch up but that doesn't mean the OT shouldn't get new stuff. It seems that most factions get something every 2 waves, which if that's the case OT players should get something every 3, however the card pack and squadron packs can suit that method and with more OT content being produced now its likely we will get new OT ships to then be released.

As for the OT being 'mistreated'. I'm sorry you had an entire faction that you got to convert over from 1st edition with a lot of options as part of that faction. I was one of those players. My bread and butter list in first edition was 4 A-Wings. I am not against you on this one if anything I am there with you wanting more stuff....

...but the reality is we have a more or less complete faction converted over from first edition while the others have started from pretty much nothing and we didn't even have to rebuy the reprints to convert our stuff over we just had to buy conversion kits which gave us everything we needed.

To say that is being 'mistreated' as an OT player, speaking as someone who was a first edition player and converted a **** of a lot over...that's not being mistreated, that's FFG being generous and not saying "Soz, rebuy ships" but I am sure that would have gone down about as well as the Titanic. There is no ideal solution in that change over.

There is no easy solution to this that will fit everyone and quite frankly Dezz, you are asking for a solution that exactly fits yourself. In my mind, you want FFG to give you 6 Starbird slashes in Heralds of Hope/Phoenix Squadron pack. It's not happening, and you're fooling yourself if you think it is.

If that's a problem, and you have your heart set on an entire list of Starbird Slashes and refuse to proxy or borrow cards because it 'makes you feel uncomfortable' then...there's no solution for you. You'll need to buy at least 2 packs to get enough for a full squad if my own experience is anything to go by, but again, that is based on past experiences, we just don't know. OR hold out until a future card pack that the Starbird slash MAY appear in.

Yo @Jarval , I'd appreciate your thoughts on this and what I say. You're usually very good on telling me if I am being reasonable/unreasonable.