Question obviously sparked by Hondo because rereading the rules reference about coordinate doesn't seem so clear for me

What if the chosen ship at r1-2 can't perform any action (for example because is stressed and has no means to perform actions while stressed or because for some reason has already performed all actions available). Would the coordinate fails? Would such a ship even be eligible to be the target of a coordinate?

Note that a stressed ship isn't failing its action since she can't perform actions at all (unless things like primed thruster allows it)

What if Hondo fails the coordinate? Would that means that the jam won't happen either because " An effect that fails does not trigger any effects that would occur after a ship resolves that effect" ?

the coordinate does not fail as long as there is a valid target. whether the ship can actually perform any actions is irrelevant. it can still be coordinated. hondo's coordinate ignores range restrictions, so as long as he can choose two ships at range 1-3 of himself that are friendly to each other, his ability will resolve.

choosing a stressed enemy ship is an excellent option, since the coordinate will not achieve anything, but you will still get to jam.

The only think I can think of that prevents a ship from being a valid target of coordinate is Passive Sensors with a spent charge.

On 7/31/2020 at 3:43 PM, meffo said:

whether the ship can actually perform any actions is irrelevant.

Is it though?

Quote

The chosen ship performs one action.

The step for coordinate seems to indicate that the ship does need to actually be able to perform the action. A failed action is not performed, and stress flat out prevents the attempt. To make it work as you state, they should change the wording to read.

The chosen ship may perform one action. (ie, exact wording of the perform action step).

As it is now, it doesnt feel like (as written) the action isnt 'granted' by coordinate, but rather, forced. It also seems to indicate that, the ship is still being coordinated until that action is complete (ala AP-5).

Just a thought.

I think that's imputing a lot of structure, trying to make inferences and leaps that just aren't there.

Like, you can't make up a restriction that the ship has to have performed an action. The existence of such a restriction on choosing ships isn't remotely supported by the text, and isn't necessary to understand the rest of the coordinate rule.

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Is it though?

The step for coordinate seems to indicate that the ship does need to actually be able to perform the action. A failed action is not performed, and stress flat out prevents the attempt. To make it work as you state, they should change the wording to read.

The chosen ship may perform one action. (ie, exact wording of the perform action step).

As it is now, it doesnt feel like (as written) the action isnt 'granted' by coordinate, but rather, forced. It also seems to indicate that, the ship is still being coordinated until that action is complete (ala AP-5).

Just a thought.

yes, it is irrelevant.

the rules on coordinate clearly state when a coordinate action fails - and what steps you follow when you coordinate. if you follow the rules, there is nothing stating a ship that cannot perform actions cannot be chosen when performing a coordinate action.

the rules state that the ship performs an action. under "Actions" on page three of the rules reference, you'll find the following paragraph:

"• A ship can choose not to perform an action during the Perform Action step or when granted an action."

or in other words, there is no such thing as a forced action, unless you find a card that states a ship must perform an action.

On 8/2/2020 at 3:52 PM, meffo said:

yes, it is irrelevant.

the rules on coordinate clearly state when a coordinate action fails - and what steps you follow when you coordinate. if you follow the rules, there is nothing stating a ship that cannot perform actions cannot be chosen when performing a coordinate action.

the rules state that the ship performs an action. under "Actions" on page three of the rules reference, you'll find the following paragraph:

"• A ship can choose not to perform an action during the Perform Action step or when granted an action."

or in other words, there is no such thing as a forced action, unless you find a card that states a ship must perform an action.

I'm just poking at possibilities here. But consider this..

Quote

If the chosen ship attempts to perform an action but that action fails, the coordinate does not fail.

Ok.. so then what if the ship DOESNT attempt to perform the action, does the coordinate fail? If the ship chooses not to take an action as in your example. Or if its stressed? Do these cause the coordinate to fail since refusing to take an action or being blocked by stress isnt failing the action you are granted? You would think the statement directly above it would make it clear that it *only* fails if no friendly ship *can* be chosen, and in any other instance, it doesnt fail.. So why make the additional clarification that it doesnt fail if the action fails? Should that not have been clear once the ship was chosen?

Also, why then does it even care if the action it granted the ship failed or not? Why is it waiting around for that timing? This seems to point to the fact that the coordinating action itself, isn't complete until that ship performs (or fails) the action its granted to it. Otherwise it wouldn't care. Right?

On 8/2/2020 at 3:06 PM, theBitterFig said:

Like, you can't make up a restriction that the ship has to have performed an action

Make up? I thought it was pretty understood that, if Darth Vader (x1) failed an action, he cannot then spend a force to perform an action.

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After a ship performs an action with an attached linked action, if the player wants to resolve the linked action, it is added to the ability queue.

If an action fails, since the action was not completed, that ship cannot perform a linked action.

Vader's ability, or any linked action really, effectively has the requirement that the ship has to have performed the previous action. Do you not agree?

6 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I'm just poking at possibilities here. But consider this..

Ok.. so then what if the ship DOESNT attempt to perform the action, does the coordinate fail? If the ship chooses not to take an action as in your example. Or if its stressed? Do these cause the coordinate to fail since refusing to take an action or being blocked by stress isnt failing the action you are granted? You would think the statement directly above it would make it clear that it *only* fails if no friendly ship *can* be chosen, and in any other instance, it doesnt fail.. So why make the additional clarification that it doesnt fail if the action fails? Should that not have been clear once the ship was chosen?

Also, why then does it even care if the action it granted the ship failed or not? Why is it waiting around for that timing? This seems to point to the fact that the coordinating action itself, isn't complete until that ship performs (or fails) the action its granted to it. Otherwise it wouldn't care. Right?

the ship can choose not to perform the action, because every ship that is granted an action can always choose not to perform an action. that's part of the package, as described under "Actions" on page three of the RR. that does not cause the coordinate to fail, no. it is clearly described what causes a coordinate action to fail. you cannot make up other causes to make it fail, because that would be doing something that's not in the rules. the fact that the rules on coordinate include the additional clarification that the coordinate doesn't fail if the action fails does not make any of the other text describing coordinate any less relevant. unfortunately, i cannot answer why the clarification is there, but that you think it should have been clear without the clarification doesn't make it any less clear ´with the clarification in place.

there is nothing waiting around for any timing. it is simply a clarification. you're right, though, you are no longer coordinating when the ship you coordinated has performed an action, or at least been given the opportunity to perform an action. whether that action can be performed, fails, or the player controlling the coordinated ship elects to not perform an action instead.

27 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Make up? I thought it was pretty understood that, if Darth Vader (x1) failed an action, he cannot then spend a force to perform an action.

It's important to understand when a coordinate (not just an action, but any coordinate) fails. It doesn't fail when the ship doesn't perform an action.

Let's say Vader had a coordinate action. Maybe a Quickbuild or whatever gave him Battle Meditation. Once he chooses the ship(s) to coordiante, he's been successful, and could then use his pilot ability to take a Lock or whatever.

29 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Ok.. so then what if the ship DOESNT attempt to perform the action, does the coordinate fail?

No, the coordinate doesn't fail.

30 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

So why make the additional clarification that it doesnt fail if the action fails? Should that not have been clear once the ship was chosen?

They probably felt they were being extra clear, so folks didn't presume that a coordiante fails if the target ship doesn't do anything. It almost seems like you're using the clarification that coordinate doesn't fail... to mean that coordinate *WILL* fail if the ship doesn't do an action.

7 minutes ago, meffo said:

you cannot make up other causes to make it fail

I resent the implication you are implying here by saying im 'making up' ****. Both you and @theBitterFig have done this now on this issue while im just trying to have a discussion.

I mean, "you cannot select a ship which cannot perform actions" just isn't in the Coordinate rules. It's not there.

There's an argument that can be made it's implied , but there's certainly nothing more than an implication, but there's just not enough evidence of that to hang Hondo out to dry.

17 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I resent the implication you are implying here by saying im 'making up' ****. Both you and @theBitterFig have done this now on this issue while im just trying to have a discussion.

apologies. i'm happy to have a discussion and i mean no ill will, but i do think you're trying to make up reasons for coordinate to fail, even though they are not in the rules. i'm sorry if you resent that, but it is my opinion.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, "you cannot select a ship which cannot perform actions" just isn't in the Coordinate rules. It's not there.

There's an argument that can be made it's implied , but there's certainly nothing more than an implication, but there's just not enough evidence of that to hang Hondo out to dry.

Agreed. If a Nantex has performed both a focus and an evade action in a turn, if you coordinate that ship, I don't think the coordinate fails, but the Nantex just sits there with an action it cannot use.

On 8/4/2020 at 12:29 PM, meffo said:

apologies. i'm happy to have a discussion and i mean no ill will, but i do think you're trying to make up reasons for coordinate to fail, even though they are not in the rules. i'm sorry if you resent that, but it is my opinion.

You'd be correct if i said those as statements. But i was asking questions, and not rhetorically asking. Simply responding to the questions would have been enough. Claiming im "making up reasons' is insulting me for just asking questions. And given how crappy FFG's wording has been lately, can you blame me for questioning things like this?

15 hours ago, Lyianx said:

You'd be correct if i said those as statements. But i was asking questions, and not rhetorically asking. Simply responding to the questions would have been enough. Claiming im "making up reasons' is insulting me for just asking questions. And given how crappy FFG's wording has been lately, can you blame me for questioning things like this?

you were asking if it couldn't be true that coordinate fails because of the action granted not being performed, or why some of the rules text was included if that wasn't the case. i'm simply stating i think that's trying to make up other reasons for coordinate to fail than those stated in the rules.

again, i'm sorry if you find that offensive, but i'll stick to it. that's how i interpreted your post.

Coordinate fails only if the ship coordinated fails its action, this is not in question.

The rules says:

"a coordinating ship is a ship that is attempting to coordinate by performing the following step":

1) measure range

2) choose another friendly ship at range 1-2

3) the choosen ship performs an action"

Can a ship be a coordinating ship if she can't perform the 3rd step?

What happens if she can? The coordinate neither fails nor resolves. Do we have other instances of this happening in the game?

3 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Can a ship be a coordinating ship if she can't perform the 3rd step?

What happens if she can? The coordinate neither fails nor resolves. Do we have other instances of this happening in the game?

page three of the RR, under "Actions". this means the option not to perform an action is always valid - and that even if you cannot perform an action, you can still be on the receiving end of an effect that grants you an action. so the coordinate will always resolve if it has a valid target. i believe in the case of passive sensors, that the ship couldn't be chosen - and if that ship was the only ship eligible for the coordinate, the coordinate would fail.

there are plenty of examples of effects that resolve, but have not effect, yes. just look at the appendix with examples of the ability queue:

in these cases, both jake's and old teroch's pilot abilites are examples of abilities that have no effect, even if they resolve.

Just a reminder here, Hondo takes part in the last line of Coordinate in the rules reference. He just Coordinates and Jams, he does not actually make them take the respective actions. So you could double Coordinate and Jam another one of your own non-token using ships, if played appropriately.