On 7/29/2020 at 12:04 AM, DR4CO said:

Quite possible, if people's reactions to Optical RZ-2s are anything to go by. 😄

But folks don't hate them because they can do a little damage. RZ-2s don't actually do that much damage, and TIE/sf can be pretty similar with Optics and rear guns. But RZ-2s combine rear guns with boosts. That makes any game against mass A-Wings essentially into a game against 5 Aces or boosting turrets, because of the ways they can fly past and get unopposed shots.

Snap RZ-1s won't ever be that, because while it requires a lot of thought to set up approaches and such, it'll still essentially be 5 Jousters. They're front-arc ships, and they have to turn around, and there's basically no similarity to how games actually unfold on table.

Despite both being called A-Wings, RZ-1s are more like flying against X-Wings, and RZ-2s are more like flying against Fat Trim Han.

14 hours ago, dezzmont said:

However a LOT of people bought Hotshots and Aces to get it, because not everyone is a hardcore tournament player.

Snap Shot comes in four non-Hotshots packs, all available by the time Hotshots came out. To buy the Hotshot expansion solely for Snap Shot is an odd choice, but I guess if you only fly the OT faction and aren't interested in any of the new pilots or upgrades in that pack, more power to you.

4 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Any ship that could use snap shot would be better without it, unless the upgrade has unusual synergy with the ship.

You hit the nail on the head here. But I would even say it's not great even with any unusual synergy with Torani Kulda maybe, just maybe, being the exception. Snap Shot wasn't worth it's weight before the price change, and it definitely isn't now. It's a shame because there are some fun uses out there that will never see the light of day now.

The list of pilots that could have fun with it that I can see are these:

Imperial: Pure Sabacc, Wampa, Turr Phennir, and maybe Rexlar

Rebels: Wedge Antilles, Airen Cracken, and you might even see Captain Rex if he had a talent slot

Scum: Krassis Trelix, Torani Kulda, Captain Seevor, Ahhav, Laetin A'shera, Shadow Caster title, and maybe IG-88B and Graz

Resistance: Kazudo Xiono, Zizi Tlo, L'ulo L'ampar, and Cova Nell

First Order: Maybe Midnight and Blackout?

Republic: Dineé Ellberger, Padmé Amidala, Tucker, and Axe

Separatists: Berwer Kret, maybe?

Most of them are just okay, and most of these pilots don't see the light of day. The better one's would allow rolling an extra die on the attack. A couple are intentionally missing to trigger an effect, a couple are trying to sneak in a hit to trigger something, and a couple are just trigger an ability earlier than engagement. non of them look too strong to warrant the increase in price.

Snap shot isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, but as it nearly the only questionable changes that FFG made this time around, it's the most I have to say about.

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

maybe IG-88B

Doesn't work. 88B's follow up with a cannon after a miss is also a bonus attack and there is a hard limit for standard bases to only one per round. Graz would, though it would require the opponent be flying away (or at a minimum not have him in their full front arc after a turn around)

I think you underestimate the number of single faction players out there to think its weird people got Hotshots over a ship with hotshot. It is also important to remember that during the streams a lot of the stuff that was in Hotshots was talked about as if it was new simply because it was a way for people who played other factions to get all the new stuff together, which obviously could cause confusion. If you are a casual and don't follow new products too closely but see something that will (finally) have new stuff for your faction that isn't getting new ships, and Max or Brooks starts talking about how excited they are that Magpulse or Snapshot is going to open up ships in your faction, it is understandable to not realize you technically had access to these options already. I am not saying it was actively deceptive, but I think it is obvious some confusion could result.

Remember, most of the people who care about this sorta thing probably aren't super 'tapped in' to everything that is going on, and more care about the results of things rather than what is actually happening. The fact Snap Shot is making people who normally wouldn't understand the significance of a 1 point change on a 7 point upgrade ("you got 200 points, what is the big deal?") notice pricing issues is actually a big deal.

8 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

But I would even say it's not great even with any unusual synergy with Torani Kulda maybe, just maybe

Right, it isn't right now, but it is more plausible to assume that it would go nuts if someone with really good synergy with it dropped in points because it might mean that specific combo hits a new breakpoint in a list. Once Snapshot neither costs you a ship and gives you benefits no other upgrade can objectively surpass, it COULD be a competitive choice.

It is basically 'proven' (as much as anything of this nature can be proven) Snap Shot is overpriced on ships that don't specifically interact with it, because it doesn't force damage on an upgrade that is meant to force damage, and compares poorly cost wise to other upgrades that are almost guaranteed to do more damage over a ship's lifespan than Snapshot. It is NOT proven that Snapshot on a cheap ship that can.... say... get free evades out of it wouldn't be broken, or Snapshot with a cheaper Wedge might not be broken, because this changes the value propitiation of Snap Shot. It is UNLIKELY they would be broken, and I think a preemptive nerf would be downright inappropriate, but its more plausible than 'A generic that never would take Snap Shot at its current cost no matter what the ship's price point is went down in price' being the reason, because that doesn't make sense.

13 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Despite both being called A-Wings, RZ-1s are more like flying against X-Wings, and RZ-2s are more like flying against Fat Han.

This is laughably ridiculous hyperbole.

A-wings must commit to 1 move, can only have 1 arc active at a time, and get blocked and murdered like anyone else. People on this forum just have this weird hang up on ships shooting from anything other than their front arc, and for some reason I cannot fathom this hang up is enough for them to level entirely unreasonable levels of hate on a 2-attack ship that's found a way to actually be relevant.

1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

This is laughably ridiculous hyperbole.

A-wings must commit to 1 move, can only have 1 arc active at a time, and get blocked and murdered like anyone else. People on this forum just have this weird hang up on ships shooting from anything other than their front arc, and for some reason I cannot fathom this hang up is enough for them to level entirely unreasonable levels of hate on a 2-attack ship for daring to actually be relevant.

Whatever, get hung up on a turn of phrase.

Folks don't hate RZ-2s because of damage. They get hate because of the positioning strengths they have due to the combination of boosts and rear arcs. Is that hate in excess of their strength on the table? Sure. Doesn't mean it's not worth understanding why, particularly since these reasons almost surely can't apply to RZ-1s.

Put Optics on an RZ-1 to ensure a bit of damage, and I'm sure that none of the folks out there who are mad about RZ-2s would care, because they just don't fly the same way.

The new Eta actis assumed ship ability (spend a force in the Systems Phase to do a boost or barrel roll) introduces one more ship which just laughes at Snap shot.

9 hours ago, DR4CO said:

This is laughably ridiculous hyperbole.

A-wings must commit to 1 move, can only have 1 arc active at a time, and get blocked and murdered like anyone else. People on this forum just have this weird hang up on ships shooting from anything other than their front arc, and for some reason I cannot fathom this hang up is enough for them to level entirely unreasonable levels of hate on a 2-attack ship that's found a way to actually be relevant.

Yeah, mostly right. I've been out-of-sorts all week, and had an excessive response--my bad.

Anyhow, RZ-2s aren't a ship which is problematically strong. I still think the hate they get more about the how it works, the on-table geometry rather than the raw numbers.

Was just confirmed to be a typo. Everything is fine here, how are you?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Was just confirmed to be a typo. Everything is fine here, how are you?

I mean, can we ask them to reduce it to 4-5 points while they’re at it?

14 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

I mean, can we ask them to reduce it to 4-5 points while they’re at it?

I would rather we not let people spam the card that lets them bloody well SHOOT TWICE , thanks.

51 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

I mean, can we ask them to reduce it to 4-5 points while they’re at it?

36 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

I would rather we not let people spam the card that lets them bloody well SHOOT TWICE , thanks.

Make it a 3 dot unique and test creeping down the points by dropping it to 6, so at least it is at the same price as Outmanuver, and then try 5 next January if that doesn't let it see experimentation.

5 probably would be enough for it to get to the 'experimentation' level, which is kinda where it needs to be to satisfy people who were excited to try it for expression. Maybe lightly off-meta. People are probably right that the implementation is bad enough that this shouldn't ever be meta, but this card needs to be at a spammable price because it does so comically little.

Like would you consider an unmodded range 2 Y-wing shot to really be an attack? If red dice are rolled in a forest, and don't make a hit, do they make a sound?

The main concern with this card isn't how good it is, but the play speed of a list that has like 20 of these. 3 dots seems pretty fine for preventing that and would let them hit their 'real' value.

Guys, it was a typo. Snap Shot did not go up. They said that on stream today and the PDF has been updated to fix the error.

EDIT: I see that GreenDragoon already said that.

14 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Make it a 3 dot unique and test creeping down the points by dropping it to 6, so at least it is at the same price as Outmanuver, and then try 5 next January if that doesn't let it see experimentation.

5 probably would be enough for it to get to the 'experimentation' level, which is kinda where it needs to be to satisfy people who were excited to try it for expression. Maybe lightly off-meta. People are probably right that the implementation is bad enough that this shouldn't ever be meta, but this card needs to be at a spammable price because it does so comically little.

Like would you consider an unmodded range 2 Y-wing shot to really be an attack? If red dice are rolled in a forest, and don't make a hit, do they make a sound?

The main concern with this card isn't how good it is, but the play speed of a list that has like 20 of these. 3 dots seems pretty fine for preventing that and would let them hit their 'real' value.

I'm a big fan of multi-pips, but realistically that ship has sailed in 2nd edition unless they release a newer version of the card (a la precog vs supernatural reflexes).

Also, yeah, an unmodded R2 shot with 2 dice versus no mods is not negligible. You've got a roughly 30% chance of punching through 3 greens for damage, and 40% against 2 greens. Damage on every second or third bonus attack is nothing to sneeze at. You might not find that useful against a vulture swarm, but it's super real against aces and pocket aces that are otherwise difficult to punch through.

16 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Like would you consider an unmodded range 2 Y-wing shot to really be an attack? If red dice are rolled in a forest, and don't make a hit, do they make a sound?

My Soontir who died R3 to a Y-Wing because I took a focus instead of an evade says yes.