11 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

Relays could always show up in Hyperspace - the Infiltrator never left the format. May not be "top-tier", but it wasn't shabby, either.

11 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

Yeah, and the one hyena had the slot and was legal too, but outside of the XY system open list I don't think they really turned up.

Looking at it now it is a tight squeeze to get relay, 8 bodies, and 3 discords but still possible if you skip struts and bulbasaur title.

My baby wasn't allowed to see the light of day because of rona. All tests showed great success and it had the potential to take the competitive scene by storm. Press F to pay respects to 32Craken as not even dropping struts will let it fit anymore.

DBS-32C w/ Kraken

TUB w/ Proton Torps

3 Discord Strut TFDs

2 Strut TFDs

Was 200, now 206

People were not ready for the coordinate at start of engagement to get the TUB a lock or barrel roll link to lock. Many Fenn Raus were punished in this manner. I salute to you my Adepticon squad.

Also, Slave 1 not double digits is alarming. Boba is going nowhere.

7 minutes ago, RStan said:

My baby wasn't allowed to see the light of day because of rona. All tests showed great success and it had the potential to take the competitive scene by storm. Press F to pay respects to 32Craken as not even dropping struts will let it fit anymore.

DBS-32C w/ Kraken

TUB w/ Proton Torps

3 Discord Strut TFDs

2 Strut TFDs

Was 200, now 206

People were not ready for the coordinate at start of engagement to get the TUB a lock or barrel roll link to lock. Many Fenn Raus were punished in this manner. I salute to you my Adepticon squad.

Also, Slave 1 not double digits is alarming. Boba is going nowhere.

Drop the Protons for some Plasma Torpedoes. Not quite the same, but the rest of it still works (minus two pairs of struts). Not only that - if and when you hit with the Plasma Torpedoes, you get a bonus shield chewed away to make it easier for your Discords to latch on to something. I think this list still has some promise.

6 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

People moved away from Fenn with Boba because a few bad green die could spell doom for Fenn, whereas someone like Dengar has staying power to at least get his points back and allow Boba to clean up.

I made that switch a while back I was a Boba/Fenn flier, and the switched to Dengar/Boba because the green dice were so fickle with Fenn. With Dengar you lose the big bid but gain a little more longevity in a wingman.

1 hour ago, Dasharr said:

In fairness there isn't a direct relationship between ship count and slowness. Big squads can dial in turns respectably quickly (especially formation swarms) whereas aces can cause extra thinking time for their player because of the danger of one wrong move.

The other thing is that bulk at least wants to lumber towards the enemy. Smaller squads often want to delay engagement until it's favourable for them, and some (especially 2-ship ace lists) want to get a points advantage and then run away. If a game consists of turn after turn of feints and evasion, some turns of combat, and then indefinite turns of hypermobile superaces fleeing, a faster pace per turn isn't helping more actually happen in a game, it's only stretching out a futile endgame.

I agree.

Also.

20 minutes ago, RStan said:

People were not ready for the coordinate at start of engagement.

I agree.

15 hours ago, Dwing said:

Ric Olie up 3 points? Whyyyy

Because he is the cheapest TIE Defender in the game.

5 hours ago, alien earth said:

edit: still no Tail Gun on Kallus VCX?

That would likely come in an errata/FAQ. If it showed up in a points change, it wouldn't be unwelcome, but would be unexpected.

2 hours ago, Dasharr said:

In fairness there isn't a direct relationship between ship count and slowness. Big squads can dial in turns respectably quickly (especially formation swarms) whereas aces can cause extra thinking time for their player because of the danger of one wrong move.

I don't necessarily disagree, but CIS swarms often go to time because of how long it takes to move 8 ships especially if they reposition even if they dial in maneuvers quickly. TTS games with CIS go to time a lot less often as maneuvering and repositioning time is drastically cut down.

45 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Because he is the cheapest TIE Defender in the game.

That would likely come in an errata/FAQ. If it showed up in a points change, it wouldn't be unwelcome, but would be unexpected.

I don't necessarily disagree, but CIS swarms often go to time because of how long it takes to move 8 ships especially if they reposition even if they dial in maneuvers quickly. TTS games with CIS go to time a lot less often as maneuvering and repositioning time is drastically cut down.

In my experience, CIS Swarms rarely go to time because everyone jousts them.

19 hours ago, Smikies02 said:

In my experience, CIS Swarms rarely go to time because everyone jousts them.

True.

But blue 4 forward, white 5 forward, boost BR *) linked to calc, also potential discord launch forward, the ships potentially ignoring obstacles, all that makes it difficult for non aces and not so mobile ships to avoid the joust.

How degenerate is this?

Kanan Jarrus (76)
Sense (5)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Leia Organa (7)
Cassian Andor (6)
Ship total: 99

Fix turret to rear, then you can always set your dial with perfect information, and turn your reds white every three turns. You can reinforce every turn you'll get shot, lock every turn you don't, and half the time you'll have force mods for offense. It's half your list but you can spend the rest on intimidation blockers etc. that can profit from Sense and Leia. Protorp Dutch and Intimidation Jake basically makes this an old-fashioned 200-pt ace, even though it's just I3. Actually there's still room in there for R4 on Dutch, Prockets on Jake, and a 1-pt bid for I4...

Or just 3 Intimidation Phoenixes. That works too.

3 hours ago, RStan said:

My baby wasn't allowed to see the light of day because of rona. All tests showed great success and it had the potential to take the competitive scene by storm. Press F to pay respects to 32Craken as not even dropping struts will let it fit anymore.

DBS-32C w/ Kraken

TUB w/ Proton Torps

3 Discord Strut TFDs

2 Strut TFDs

Was 200, now 206

People were not ready for the coordinate at start of engagement to get the TUB a lock or barrel roll link to lock. Many Fenn Raus were punished in this manner. I salute to you my Adepticon squad.

Whew!

13 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

True.

But blue 4 forward, white 5 forward, boost linked to calc, also potential discord launch forward, the ships potentially ignoring obstacles, all that makes it difficult for non aces and not so mobile ships to avoid the joust.

BR to Calc* (Boost would be significantly better)

They don't ignore obstacles. They can land on them and have to either br off or are really predictable.

Ships without reposition have difficulties, but they generally do anyways. If you have a boost you can force the engagement how and when you want. Only BR is trickier but also possible because block formations are predictable.

It's really important to dial in maneuvers that don't commit you. So dial in a bank instead of a turn. Or a slower maneuver. That sort of thing.

15 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

How degenerate is this?

Kanan Jarrus (76)
Sense (5)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Leia Organa (7)
Cassian Andor (6)
Ship total: 99

Fix turret to rear, then you can always set your dial with perfect information, and turn your reds white every three turns. You can reinforce every turn you'll get shot, lock every turn you don't, and half the time you'll have force mods for offense. It's half your list but you can spend the rest on intimidation blockers etc. that can profit from Sense and Leia. Protorp Dutch and Intimidation Jake basically makes this an old-fashioned 200-pt ace, even though it's just I3. Actually there's still room in there for R4 on Dutch, Prockets on Jake, and a 1-pt bid for I4...

How about this:

Kanan & Friends

(76) Kanan Jarrus [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
(6) Cassian Andor
(7) Leia Organa
(5) Sense
(7) Veteran Turret Gunner
(5) Ion Cannon Turret
Points: 106

(34) Arvel Crynyd [RZ-1 A-wing]
(2) Predator
(3) Intimidation
Points: 39

(55) Wedge Antilles [T-65 X-wing]
Points: 55

Total points: 200

2 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

How about this:

Kanan & Friends

(76) Kanan Jarrus [VCX-100 Light Freighter]
(6) Cassian Andor
(7) Leia Organa
(5) Sense
(7) Veteran Turret Gunner
(5) Ion Cannon Turret
Points: 106

(34) Arvel Crynyd [RZ-1 A-wing]
(2) Predator
(3) Intimidation
Points: 39

(55) Wedge Antilles [T-65 X-wing]
Points: 55

Total points: 200

I had considered that, but I don't think VTG will be worth it, and this is why; I think the flexibility of the rear arc is worth more than the double-tap (though I could be wrong) and I definitely don't think the time spent turning the turret would ever pay for itself. Wedge works but I'm not sure what his value is in this list. Protorp Dutch is a similar price and has the side bonus of giving Kanan double-mods, and frees up points for Prockets on Jake instead of Predator Arvel. Either works though, really.

It's probably not good? If it is it would be really gross, and probably a nerf-magnet. Not sure...

10 hours ago, Dasharr said:

In fairness there isn't a direct relationship between ship count and slowness. Big squads can dial in turns respectably quickly (especially formation swarms) whereas aces can cause extra thinking time for their player because of the danger of one wrong move.

The other thing is that bulk at least wants to lumber towards the enemy. Smaller squads often want to delay engagement until it's favourable for them, and some (especially 2-ship ace lists) want to get a points advantage and then run away. If a game consists of turn after turn of feints and evasion, some turns of combat, and then indefinite turns of hypermobile superaces fleeing, a faster pace per turn isn't helping more actually happen in a game, it's only stretching out a futile endgame.

Anyway, I don't think that there's a problem with bulk X-Wing. For 50%+ of 1.0's lifespan (after Dengaroo killed off the Howlrunner swarm) bulk was mostly garbage and it wasn't to the game's benefit. About the only time bulk was strong was wookiee spam, and it was only a problem because it was calibrated to match the crazy card combos so it had to be super-bulk. 2.0 hasn't been dominated with bulk - the 5 X-Wing spam that many feared when they dropped to 40 hasn't been a top performing list. Vulture spam has been extremely successful but that got a nerf (even +1 cost per ship matters to a swarm). In contrast, Boba+Fenn has been one of the best lists of this hyperspace season and it still works with some toys and a bid even after the points increase on Boba.

Not saying there is. One of the slowest lists I've seen has 4 ships, and only 1 semi-ace. Goes to time literally 100% of the games I play with or against it. (And wins often because of that)

Trust me, I don't want 2 ship hit and runaway either. But at least that has some counterplay. When their list is simply chonkier than yours by a margin of 120% , you basically cannot beat it by flying better/like cutting off a fleeing ship. You join it, or you find a list better (which becomes a list war)

Bulk is strong now. Bulk has been strong for much of 2.0. Don't be fooled. 5X honestly isn't super bulky: they die fast. But theres other lists that are much bulkier.

Boba Fenn only works because Hyperspace is such a intentionally curated and limited environment. In Extended its only yet another good list cuz so many other lists trash it. In sum, don't play Hyperspace if you don't like Boba Fenn.
For the record, I don't like Boba Fenn either. But at least something like 7/9 games of Boba Fenn ended decisively. Whereas 0/12-15 games vs true bulk.

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

why; I think the flexibility of the rear arc is worth more than the double-tap (though I could be wrong)

The rear arc on the VCX definitely has value with Hera or sense Kanan, but remember that VTG isn't a turret upgrade in reality until your base gun is stronger than a turret. On most turret ships, the VTG is an extra 2 dice attack, probably unmodded. On the VCX it becomes an extra 3 dice ion attack, which is scary when your also facing down a ship able to rock you with a 4-5 dice attack.

The VCX already was seeing a lot of double tap experimentation with Saw (it preformed unusually well very consistently for a few months druing the January-July 2020 points, and was the top rebel list for a not insignificant amount of time with a not insignificant amount of tournaments played), and now that the combo dropped by 3 points on most VCX and 7 points on Kanan, it may be even better. Especially because Kanan doesn't really need Saw.

If any large base is going to be good with a VTG, its going to be the VCX. That said, I think your sense Kanan build may compete with that!

VTG Kanan, at least to me, *screams* to have Heightened Perception. Maybe it's not a first-round thing, but being able to pop off a 5 dice primary and Dorsal or Ion attack at Init 7 at Range 1 on the second round? Yeah .

*e* ....or like, this Sense Kanan, plus Roark Garnet.

32 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

VTG Kanan, at least to me, *screams* to have Heightened Perception. Maybe it's not a first-round thing, but being able to pop off a 5 dice primary and Dorsal or Ion attack at Init 7 at Range 1 on the second round? Yeah .

*e* ....or like, this Sense Kanan, plus Roark Garnet.

I so wish I could take both.

Well, technically you can if you put Sense on Ezra, but that blows up easily (side bonus, you could then take Maul for extra force and a little force regen but that's not typically worth it and gets way outside the scope of this build).

Really the main point of this "degenerate" build is to make a Boba that's even nastier. A Boba Fett that can actually rotate to any maneuver, can make that maneuver white, can throw a 4-die attack out its front or Ion out its back, sits on 14 health, can reinforce every single turn of the game and still have mods and no stress, isn't starved for points, and still comes in at under 100 points. Add Jake and Dutch and you've got double mods on that thing without even factoring force.

Oh, also he can neuter your shots on his wingmen too, no big deal. Oh, and turn his wingmen's reds white also. Yeah.

All that to say, HP would be awesome and I have it on most of my Kanan builds, but this one calls for sense specifically in order to work

I really don't get why 7b Anakin got nerfed once again. He was already seeing almost no play after previous nerf, why hit him even more?

5 hours ago, Revanxv said:

I really don't get why 7b Anakin got nerfed once again. He was already seeing almost no play after previous nerf, why hit him even more?

Maybe in anticipation of new releases? There won’t be a points update until next year maybe.

just a thought.

6 hours ago, Revanxv said:

I really don't get why 7b Anakin got nerfed once again. He was already seeing almost no play after previous nerf, why hit him even more?

D7b Ani with chopper was a beast.

4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

Maybe in anticipation of new releases? There won’t be a points update until next year maybe.

just a thought.

With the LAAT essentially giving free locks, it seems like it'll open up a playstyle a lot like 1e Palp Aces, with a strong support piece and two strong arc dodgers.

Say... with the lower cost on Passive Sensors, four Blades with S-Foils, PS, and Marksmanship + Autoblasters fits, and it's even Hyperspace. Is that any good? Would Passive Sensors be better than Fire Control System? You've got shot-range guns, Passives might not be necessary. But Passives also allow you to pick your targets at will.

Hrm.

Additionally, Passive Sensors Ion Cannon Blues are 51 points. If they were 50, I think we'd have a reminder of why we don't want ion to be good.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

we don't want ion to be good

Y ou could just drop one Blue down to some other ship, 3 ion shots double tapped with a 3 dice isn't a joke and still probably applies ion to half a list pretty consistently if they approach head on.

14 hours ago, Revanxv said:

I really don't get why 7b Anakin got nerfed once again. He was already seeing almost no play after previous nerf, why hit him even more?

Did he see no play because of pricing or because he wasn't in Hyperspace? His going up 2 point in January doesn't seem like a strong enough deterrent that anyone that thought he was good would have not still gladly paid for. He went up another 4 for Delta-7b, but still remains the same in CLT format. Plus, he has a 5 point cheaper Y-Wing alternate, and a Eta-2 alternate releasing in the near future. Maybe they are encouraging you to try other options besides Delta-7b Ani. Try CLT Ani, try cheaper Y Ani, try baby Ani, try ETA Ani (when available).

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

Y ou could just drop one Blue down to some other ship, 3 ion shots double tapped with a 3 dice isn't a joke and still probably applies ion to half a list pretty consistently if they approach head on.

Gray Squadron Bomber with Ezra and Ion Cannon Turret fits, just to keep with the double-tapping init2 ion theme.

Might have to give Triple T-70 another try...

• Ello Asty (Heroic) 56
• Poe Dameron (Heroic, R4, Black One, Advanced Proton Torpedoes) 77
• Nien Nunb (Heroic, Pattern Analyzer, Advanced Proton Torpedoes) 66

Two Double-Mods APT just seems like a lot of fun.