I literally had a dream that they announced him.

Do we dare hope? Can dreams become reality? Can FFG fix 2020 by announcing the greatest of all villains? Is that legal?

Dude, all this nutting over Nute can't be healthy...

We getting Darth maul...yawn. hopefully we get a commander that's 120p or less. This would really help CIS. I don't care of it's Nute or some random droid/seperatist guy/gal.

2 hours ago, Vector Strike said:

Dude, all this nutting over Nute can't be healthy...

Are you suggesting my dreaming about Nute Gunray being released isnt healthy?

Hmmm

You maybe onto something! Lets hope I dont dream about it again otherwise you could almost say...This is getting out of hand! Now, there are *two* of them!:D

1 hour ago, Memorare said:

Are you suggesting my dreaming about Nute Gunray being released isnt healthy?

Technically I think he was saying all this releasing over Nute Gunray isnt healthy.

Personally I'm still hoping for a tactical or super tactical droid as a cheap commander. I'd love to see some tech based shenanigans cards. I'd honestly be ok if it didnt have an attack buy persistently buffed droids or performed order shenanigans.

9 minutes ago, VermillionDe said:

Technically I think he was saying all this releasing over Nute Gunray isnt healthy.

Personally I'm still hoping for a tactical or super tactical droid as a cheap commander. I'd love to see some tech based shenanigans cards. I'd honestly be ok if it didnt have an attack buy persistently buffed droids or performed order shenanigans.

Yeah I got the joke, just am refusing to sully the good name of Gunray with such low brow humour! 😛

Yeah, joking aside a cheap commander is 100% needed.

Nute Gunray is a zero, Darth Maul is a hero!

No.

It's going to be the expanded universe Nuute Guunray version that comes out for Legion.

1 hour ago, Memorare said:

Yeah, joking aside a cheap commander is 100% needed.

Yeah, no joke. Every other faction had a cheap commander released 1-2 months after their respective core set. We are currently more than 9 months out from the CW core set and, thanks to Darth Maul, likely won't get another commander (who might not even be cheap) even announced for at least a few months. So I think it's safe to say we're minimum 6 months out from a third CIS commander.

Honestly I don't even care if the next commander is cheap or not. I just want another option. I'm so tired of building lists where the main options are this commander, that commander, or bOtH cOmMaNdErS.

2 hours ago, Memorare said:

a cheap commander is 100% needed

I was on this boat until I started getting more games in with CIS.

The issue is the B1s. They make droid armies so efficient. They have garbage stats, yes, but they are under costed for how resilient they can be. Even with AI attack, it's very easy to coordinate orders, and with a baseline HP of 6, with heavy cover, and LoS blocking terrain, it can be downright difficult to take full units of B1s off the board.

CIS getting a "cheap" commander could mean serious power creep. It's likely why we haven't seen one yet like every other faction.

As much as I want a Nute Gunray commander at 90-100 points with some sort of keyword that allows more B1s, I understand how it may cause some unbalance in the game.

58 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Honestly I don't even care if the next commander is cheap or not. I just want another option.

This is more in line with how I feel. Two melee commanders leaves the strategy for CIS just a little stale. (In my opinion). I'm looking forward to the Tactical droids which should offer a more diverse set of commands.

*CIS opens Christmas Present*

"It's another lightsaber wielder...I'll put it over there with the others"

I'd love a tactical droid.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I was on this boat until I started getting more games in with CIS.

The issue is the B1s. They make droid armies so efficient. They have garbage stats, yes, but they are under costed for how resilient they can be. Even with AI attack, it's very easy to coordinate orders, and with a baseline HP of 6, with heavy cover, and LoS blocking terrain, it can be downright difficult to take full units of B1s off the board.

CIS getting a "cheap" commander could mean serious power creep. It's likely why we haven't seen one yet like every other faction.

As much as I want a Nute Gunray commander at 90-100 points with some sort of keyword that allows more B1s, I understand how it may cause some unbalance in the game.

This is more in line with how I feel. Two melee commanders leaves the strategy for CIS just a little stale. (In my opinion). I'm looking forward to the Tactical droids which should offer a more diverse set of commands.

I don't think this is the case at all. Empire can get 14 Activations led by Bossk or 13 led by Vader. Most of those activations are going to have red dice with 3 or 4 HP, which is vastly more survivable than B1 squads with white and maybe a single surge. The argument that CIS will have better token control is valid though, but I'm not sure that a 100 point is not going to push CIS into an area where it is OP.

22 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

I don't think this is the case at all. Empire can get 14 Activations led by Bossk or 13 led by Vader. Most of those activations are going to have red dice with 3 or 4 HP, which is vastly more survivable than B1 squads with white and maybe a single surge. The argument that CIS will have better token control is valid though, but I'm not sure that a 100 point is not going to push CIS into an area where it is OP.

Once the BX droids and STAP Riders come out, CIS will also be able to run 13 activations with Count Dooku. Give them a 50 point commander and they can go 14 activations with an AAT (by taking saboteurs instead of snipers in the BX units). Or a 90 point commander and they can go 14 with Cad Bane. Or give them a 100 point commander (or a non-unique 50!) and they can do 13 (or 14!) activations with all six B1s having an E-5C heavy, or a 70 point commander and those B1s can also have an extra trooper. And to be perfectly honest, the main limiter on these numbers is not the cost of the CIS units; it’s the number of units by rank allowed by game rules.

4 minutes ago, GooeyChewie said:

Once the BX droids and STAP Riders come out, CIS will also be able to run 13 activations with Count Dooku. Give them a 50 point commander and they can go 14 activations with an AAT (by taking saboteurs instead of snipers in the BX units). Or a 90 point commander and they can go 14 with Cad Bane. Or give them a 100 point commander (or a non-unique 50!) and they can do 13 (or 14!) activations with all six B1s having an E-5C heavy, or a 70 point commander and those B1s can also have an extra trooper. And to be perfectly honest, the main limiter on these numbers is not the cost of the CIS units; it’s the number of units by rank allowed by game rules.

The list with Dooku is not good. Dooku + B1 x 6 + BX Saboteurs x 3 + STAP x 3 = 784 points when everything is naked. That list has a ton of wounds, but all of the B1 and STAP are white defense without native surge. Cover will protect some of it, but not enough to be viable. Additionally, Dooku needs to have force powers in order to be effective, so activation would have to be dropped in order to get Dooku his force powers and tactics.

The rest of the lists you provide all suffer from the same problem, there is no defensive capabilities to survive. Nor do they have the firepower to shoot their opponent off of the table. Conversely the imperial lists with 13/14 activations definitely have the firepower to shoot units off of the board, and they have red defense dice. Please explain how the CIS army stands toe to toe with them and wins?

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

I don't think this is the case at all. Empire can get 14 Activations led by Bossk or 13 led by Vader. Most of those activations are going to have red dice with 3 or 4 HP, which is vastly more survivable than B1 squads with white and maybe a single surge.

I will concede that in a straight fight you'd probably be right (given the dice aren't super fickle).

But I would argue that CIS and Imperial forces play VERY differently. Imps are much less likely to cohesion their forces partially behind LoS blocking terrain after moving up or before attacking. It's been my experience Imp players want to shoot stuff, and they dedicate their whole squad to that, leaning on red def dice and cover to keep that unit alive. B1s are very good about ignoring suppression, getting where they need to be and cohesioning in such a way that 2-4 minis simply can't be killed.

I would also say that Imperials suffer from greater diminishing returns when their units suffer losses or cohesion in ways that disallow the whole unit to attack or be attacked. In my experience the B1s really don't suffer that bad from losses as long as they can still capture objectives, coordinate, and stay alive.

I'll also note that heavy cover is very easy to achieve for droids and that on average imp units get about 2-3 hits through before rolling defenses (Which I basically discount entirely cause 1/6th is a laugh). Most of the time even when one of my B1 units has all it's minis in LoS, the attacks against them through cover are underwhelming.

The only faction I outright fear attacks from is clones. Their ability to "Ctrl+Alt+Del >Task Manager> End Task" a unit is nuts. lol

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

but I'm not sure that a 100 point is not going to push CIS into an area where it is OP.

It depends on the keywords and cards that come with it. A keyword that lets an army take two extra units of B1s adding anywhere from 12- to 16 extra HP onto the battlefield when used as described above could really cause problems. In my opinion.



I may be wrong, I've changed my tune on this from my original opinion of "they won't be OP" just based on how well the B1s actually play. I stomped my last 4 opponents using CIS and B1s were 1000% the key to those games. But that doesn't make me right.


If you are right, I suppose the question for me becomes, why did FFG break away from the precedent of the other 3 factions if balance wasn't the concern? It doesn't make much sense to me otherwise.

15 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

But I would argue that CIS and Imperial forces play VERY differently. Imps are much less likely to cohesion their forces partially behind LoS blocking terrain after moving up or before attacking. It's been my experience Imp players want to shoot stuff, and they dedicate their whole squad to that, leaning on red def dice and cover to keep that unit alive. B1s are very good about ignoring suppression, getting where they need to be and cohesioning in such a way that 2-4 minis simply can't be killed.

If the opponent plays foolishly, that's on them. Also note, that if Vader is the commander, then suppression isn't a concern because they can never panic.

17 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I would also say that Imperials suffer from greater diminishing returns when their units suffer losses or cohesion in ways that disallow the whole unit to attack or be attacked. In my experience the B1s really don't suffer that bad from losses as long as they can still capture objectives, coordinate, and stay alive.

The E-Webs lose ZERO offensive output for each wound they take. Everything else sans STAPS suffers the diminishing returns. Sure, B1's lose less offense per model compared, but those models do have a greater chance of going away comparatively.

20 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'll also note that heavy cover is very easy to achieve for droids and that on average imp units get about 2-3 hits through before rolling defenses (Which I basically discount entirely cause 1/6th is a laugh). Most of the time even when one of my B1 units has all it's minis in LoS, the attacks against them through cover are underwhelming.

Generally, Empire forces actually have a better chance to get behind heavy cover because there are fewer of them.

21 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The only faction I outright fear attacks from is clones. Their ability to "Ctrl+Alt+Del >Task Manager> End Task" a unit is nuts. lol

GAR doesn't scare me that much. Playing against them just requires more thought in positioning one's units.

25 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

It depends on the keywords and cards that come with it. A keyword that lets an army take two extra units of B1s adding anywhere from 12- to 16 extra HP onto the battlefield when used as described above could really cause problems. In my opinion.

What makes you think CIS would get not one, but two extra units of B1s? That's almost certainly not going to happen. That would be stupid and broken.

27 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If you are right, I suppose the question for me becomes, why did FFG break away from the precedent of the other 3 factions if balance wasn't the concern? It doesn't make much sense to me otherwise.

Because they want to sell models. People can complain all they want about him not being CIS, but Darth Maul will sell incredibly well. I think they added Cad Bane earlier because he adds variety and gives CIS bounty to counter the Secret Missions of R2/Padme.

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

If the opponent plays foolishly, that's on them.

So I'm clear the counter point here is "player skill"? Everyone who played imps and lost to CIS has just done it wrong? lol

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

Also note, that if Vader is the commander, then suppression isn't a concern because they can never panic.

It's not about panicking, it's about action economy. Imps inherently lose actions to suppression where droids do not. It's an inherent disadvantage. you can build around it or have command cards or keywords to help, but that's neither here nor there.

Also, like, Vader's just one dude. (Are Vader lists doing good right now?)

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

The E-Webs lose ZERO offensive output for each wound they take. Everything else sans STAPS suffers the diminishing returns. Sure, B1's lose less offense per model compared, but those models do have a greater chance of going away comparatively.

I really don't have a counter to this, so take the rest for what it's worth (probably nothing lol).

Seems a bit of a laugh to compare a support unit to corps units, but whatever. Like if I said, "Grievous loses ZERO offensive ability when wounded therefore Droids better". lol If we're doing corps to corps comparison, then let's stick to that. Seems kinda silly to cross ranks.

That said, anecdotal, but I've rolled dice (no tokens, with heavy cover, applied all valid surges, 6 rounds of shooting) between the corps units (shores +T21b and Storms+DLT19 VS. B1+1+ Heavy(18 point) and this is what I've gotten so far:

5x Shores shoot first (3/5 survived longer than B1s, 2/5 both survived)
5x B1s shoot first (2/5 survived longer than shores 1/5th both survived)
5x Stormies shoot first (2/5 survived longer than B1s, 1/5 both survived)
5x B1s shoot first (3/5 survived longer than stormies, 1/5 both units survived)

Obviously this means nothing. Small sample size, and it doesn't include anywhere near the number of variables. Just thought it was interesting.

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

GAR doesn't scare me that much. Playing against them just requires more thought in positioning one's units.

Agreed, like I said in a previous post, the B1s are really good at breaking up LoS in cohesion (I actually first learned this fighting clones, since they were the first army to actually be able to delete a whole B1 squad in 1 shot lol.) So clones usually end up wasting an activation fire-supporting on my B1s. I'm just saying, out in the open they are a straight hazard. lol

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

What makes you think CIS would get not one, but two extra units of B1s? That's almost certainly not going to happen. That would be stupid and broken.

Oh I definitely don't think it will happen. I don't think they'll give us even 1 extra B1 unit. I think B1s are too good for their price. lol

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

Because they want to sell models. People can complain all they want about him not being CIS, but Darth Maul will sell incredibly well.

Okay, I mean, sure, Darth Maul will sell more than a Nute or a Super tactical droid or any other less known name, sure, but Dooku was the expansion that released along Rex...

THAT doesn't make sense to me.

Dooku doesn't have some huge following like Maul. Dude's a meme at worst and a shoehorned B-villain at best.

What's weirder is he's costed and designed similar to Palps why pair him against Rex? Wouldn't maintaining the precedent and releasing a low cost commander make sense? It's not like it wouldn't sell. CIS players have been harping for a low cost commander since DAY ONE.

I think it's a balance issue.


I also think it's important to note Imps aren't the only other faction.

11 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

So I'm clear the counter point here is "player skill"? Everyone who played imps and lost to CIS has just done it wrong? lol

There is definitely skill in being able to hide behind heavy cover and still get LOS for all models, although it won't always be possible. The other skill is knowing when to press and when to wait. You're saying Empire players just want to go out and shoot stuff, which is not always the smartest idea. Also, if the CIS player is hiding models behind heavy cover so they can't be seen, then they aren't shooting.

15 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

It's not about panicking, it's about action economy. Imps inherently lose actions to suppression where droids do not. It's an inherent disadvantage. you can build around it or have command cards or keywords to help, but that's neither here nor there.

This is fair, but at the same time, if the empire player cuts the daisy chain in half, the orders can be interrupted. As a CIS player, there is nothing worse than having to shoot first and do something else afterwards, especially when a savvy opponent forces a unit with a heavy that has a greater range band (B1 Sniper or B2 HA) to fire only that weapon with a cheeky unit placement.

20 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Also, like, Vader's just one dude. (Are Vader lists doing good right now?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm6PSlNlGBU - I'm talking about Vader based off of one of the lists from this video.

24 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Seems a bit of a laugh to compare a support unit to corps units, but whatever. Like if I said, "Grievous loses ZERO offensive ability when wounded therefore Droids better". lol If we're doing corps to corps comparison, then let's stick to that. Seems kinda silly to cross ranks.

I was speaking generally, but Mortars could be used instead. They have 3 wounds and lose no offensive capabilities until they die. They also have courage two and can fire support to bypass suppression issues.

26 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

That said, anecdotal, but I've rolled dice (no tokens, with heavy cover, applied all valid surges, 6 rounds of shooting) between the corps units (shores +T21b and Storms+DLT19 VS. B1+1+ Heavy(18 point) and this is what I've gotten so far:

5x Shores shoot first (3/5 survived longer than B1s, 2/5 both survived)
5x B1s shoot first (2/5 survived longer than shores 1/5th both survived)
5x Stormies shoot first (2/5 survived longer than B1s, 1/5 both survived)
5x B1s shoot first (3/5 survived longer than stormies, 1/5 both units survived)

Obviously this means nothing. Small sample size, and it doesn't include anywhere near the number of variables. Just thought it was interesting.

Yeah I woundn't put much stock in that either as battles are not fought in a vacuum. Also, you are not taking into account things like range (both Empire units have range 4 capabilities).

31 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay, I mean, sure, Darth Maul will sell more than a Nute or a Super tactical droid or any other less known name, sure, but Dooku was the expansion that released along Rex...

THAT doesn't make sense to me.

Dooku doesn't have some huge following like Maul. Dude's a meme at worst and a shoehorned B-villain at best.

What's weirder is he's costed and designed similar to Palps why pair him against Rex? Wouldn't maintaining the precedent and releasing a low cost commander make sense? It's not like it wouldn't sell. CIS players have been harping for a low cost commander since DAY ONE.

I think it's a balance issue.

Dooku and Maul are 100% the reason I got into this game and chose CIS. I do not have the same view of Dooku as you in the least, but different strokes for different folks.

As to balance, it will never be there in the way people want. There are far too many variables in games like this. Can and should they try? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean everything has to be equal (i.e. CIS gets a Commander so GAR gets a Commander). Perhaps they should have pushed back the CW release and released more options at the start. That would certainly make things better compared to the other factions.

39 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I also think it's important to note Imps aren't the only other faction.

Of course, but the other factions have their own inherent bonuses. GAR doesn't need crazy amounts of activations because of the strength of Fire Support. As you said, they can pretty much guarantee a unit's deletion if they want. Rebels are the wild card here because they have the same crappy saves as CIS, but attrition hits them harder. On the other hand, with Tauntauns (one of the best units in the game), Sabine, and the forthcoming Clen Wren/Mandos, they will have the best movement capabilities of any faction. That's a crazy amount of speed 3 with which to contend.

3 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

The list with Dooku is not good. Dooku + B1 x 6 + BX Saboteurs x 3 + STAP x 3 = 784 points when everything is naked.

Snipers over Saboteurs. And if you aren’t happy with Dooku with just Force Reflexes, you could run the General to make room for upgrades. The point is, CIS can already bump up against the unit limits, even before getting equivalents to Mortar Troopers and E-webs. FFG might be reluctant to give them a cheap commander because doing so might allow them 15-16 activations at some point.

1 hour ago, GooeyChewie said:

Snipers over Saboteurs. And if you aren’t happy with Dooku with just Force Reflexes, you could run the General to make room for upgrades. The point is, CIS can already bump up against the unit limits, even before getting equivalents to Mortar Troopers and E-webs. FFG might be reluctant to give them a cheap commander because doing so might allow them 15-16 activations at some point.

Okay, using the cheapest options and maximizing the Corps, SF, and support slots for all factions:
CIS - B1 x 6 + BX Saboteurs x 3 + STAP x 3 = 579
GAR - Phase 1 x 6, ARC Trooper (strike team with sniper) x 3, AT-RT x 3 = 663
Rebel - Rebel Troopers x 6, Rebel Commandos (strike team with saboteur) x 3, AT-RT x 3 = 543
Empire - Stormtrooper x6, Scout Trooper (strike team with saboteur) x 3, E-Web Heavy Blaster Team x 3 = 567

Please explain how CIS would be more broken than Rebels or Empire, both of which cost fewer points.

So who wants to buy a bumper sticker with "NUTE-MAUL 2020: THE TEAM WE NEED" on it?

My only real issue with Nute Gunray coming to the game is purely gameplay aesthetic. I've just never seen Nute Gunray as a leader in any capacity. I don't like the idea of the cowardly, sniveling head of a corporation being the most efficient option to "lead" my Separatist forces into battle. And I dislike the idea of the Sepratist meta becoming nothing but Nute Gunray lists just because he's cheap when their faction could really explore and work with the continuing idea of expensive but high power commanders and cheap-ish army units.

If Separatists do get a cheap commander, I'd personally rather see a character or droid that could actually handle themselves on the battlefield. I've been really happy with having Dooku and Grievous so far though.

"Maul And Gunray Again!"

Going to run with this xD

3 hours ago, DewbackScout said:

So who wants to buy a bumper sticker with "NUTE-MAUL 2020: THE TEAM WE NEED" on it?

Got my vote.