9 hours ago, Divad said:

Not overly liking them myself either. Too much overlap with Wookies.

That said, what are people's thoughts on using them with Han's 2 pip? Maybe with HQ Uplink on R2D2 or with Clan Wren and Sabine to pass the dodge. Situational awareness and heavy cover. Unit would be hard to put down and the rest of your force can basically have free reign on the board.

There are too many ways to gwt around that card for it to be a viable tactic

On 7/28/2020 at 7:56 AM, SnooSnarry said:

Fleets aren't useless because another useless unit, the dewback, is in the game. Taun Tauns are infinitely more damaging to the viability of fleets than dewbacks could ever hope to be. Fleets are bad because they are a courage 1 unit with range 2 guns. 5 models with a heavy, speed 2, and white saves. Clan Wren is much better because they have jump 2 which means they can just sit behind a LoS blocking piece of terrain and jump out and blast something. If you are trying to play them like a unit that sits in the open and try to charge across fields of fire of course they won't be very effective. I for one am very excited for Clan Wren because jump 2, speed 3, 6 wounds, double surge, and impervious sounds like a beast of a unit to me. You can bring Sabine for the retinue and feed them aims when they are behind a LoS blocker and when they pop out they can use that aim for lethal or longshot. Then give them a dodge that next round when they are exposed and if you brought situational awareness now you have mandos that can dodge crits with nimble.

When I had given up on fleets, I was running scatter gun and officer for courage 2, puts them at 14pts less than mangos with a duelist. The mandos need approx 24 wounds with average rolls to kill them all (1 in 6 wounds is a failed save) vs the fleets 18 wounds needed. The fleets do 5.5 hits with pierce 1, vs the mandos 5 hits. The mandos aren't going to jump out and erase anything. Sure they are hard to kill, and thats nice, but they are hard to kill but swingy because average dice roll math is just averages, and red dice even with surge do quit and go home.

I'm sorry, I'm not doing the math for clan wren right now. Its one more wound, probably about the same damage, going from 4 models to 3 but swapping a black for a red and white. You have more special rules, but its hard to trigger them all, and 10pts more.

I really want to be wrong, but range 2 is what kills it for me, sure they are faster and harder than fleets, but with less damage than fleets and more expensive, what are you shooting with them? You could pick on lone units/operatives, and steer clear of sabers because they will still do a lot of damage if they get to you, but I don't think that's a niche the rebels have needed. Ya they are better than worries, but how many people are actually running wookies? Its a cool concept, and sort of like the worries, the biggest issue for me is the weapon option (not counting the named chars in this) doesn't help the unit do what I want it to do, it's a cool weapon, but not what I think it needs.

I am more intrigued by the rockets for doing something rebs need, but 8 puts on a 100pt unit that seems conflicted about its niche after shooting a tank is kinda meh.

Edit, correct math below, but still same conclusion by me

14 minutes ago, Steck638 said:

When I had given up on fleets, I was running scatter gun and officer for courage 2, puts them at 14pts less than mangos with a duelist. The mandos need approx 24 wounds with average rolls to kill them all (1 in 6 wounds is a failed save) vs the fleets 18 wounds needed. The fleets do 5.5 hits with pierce 1, vs the mandos 5 hits. The mandos aren't going to jump out and erase anything. Sure they are hard to kill, and thats nice, but they are hard to kill but swingy because average dice roll math is just averages, and red dice even with surge do quit and go home.

I'm sorry, I'm not doing the math for clan wren right now. Its one more wound, probably about the same damage, going from 4 models to 3 but swapping a black for a red and white. You have more special rules, but its hard to trigger them all, and 10pts more.

I really want to be wrong, but range 2 is what kills it for me, sure they are faster and harder than fleets, but with less damage than fleets and more expensive, what are you shooting with them? You could pick on lone units/operatives, and steer clear of sabers because they will still do a lot of damage if they get to you, but I don't think that's a niche the rebels have needed. Ya they are better than worries, but how many people are actually running wookies? Its a cool concept, and sort of like the worries, the biggest issue for me is the weapon option (not counting the named chars in this) doesn't help the unit do what I want it to do, it's a cool weapon, but not what I think it needs.

I am more intrigued by the rockets for doing something rebs need, but 8 puts on a 100pt unit that seems conflicted about its niche after shooting a tank is kinda meh.

Some of your math is a bit off there.

Mandos with a Duelist is only 12 effective wounds. 1 in 3 wounds them. Fleets with Officer and Scattergun are only 9 effective wounds (2 in 3 wounds them). Also the Mandos with Duelist only average 4 hits at range 2, though 4.75 in melee. Mandos with Tristan have 15 effective wounds and average 5 wounds at range with the potential for Pierce. Replace Tristan with Ursa and the average hits goes up to 5.625.

Clan Wren has 18 effective wounds, and averages 4.375 hits at range 2, with the potential for Pierce.

2 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Some of your math is a bit off there.

Mandos with a Duelist is only 12 effective wounds. 1 in 3 wounds them. Fleets with Officer and Scattergun are only 9 effective wounds (2 in 3 wounds them). Also the Mandos with Duelist only average 4 hits at range 2, though 4.75 in melee. Mandos with Tristan have 16 effective wounds and average 5 wounds at range with the potential for Pierce. Replace Tristan with Ursa and the average hits goes up to 5.625.

Clan Wren has 18 effective wounds, and averages 4.375 hits at range 2, with the potential for Pierce.

thank you. Guess I shouldn't do math at work when I'm trying to work, I thought the effective wounds was off.

Also, as an edit, I was leaving the characters off for ease of math and keep one points value. But the corrected math makes them look even worse to me. 14pts for 3 effective wounds, speed 3 and jump, and 1.5 less damage.

@Steck638 Best save in the game is a 3+, not a 2+. Sometimes it helps to convert the die results to numbers.

Just now, Caimheul1313 said:

@Steck638 Best save in the game is a 3+, not a 2+. Sometimes it helps to convert the die results to numbers.

Ya, I was thinking red attack dice, 1 blank so red defense is the same... I'm a reb and Droid player, I don't use red dice much.

Just now, Steck638 said:

Ya, I was thinking red attack dice, 1 blank so red defense is the same... I'm a reb and Droid player, I don't use red dice much.

Fair enough there. It is interesting how the red defence die have more blank faces than the red attack die.

3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Fair enough there. It is interesting how the red defence die have more blank faces than the red attack die.

Looking it up and seeing the result options, I think its to make it progressive, white you can have 1 or 2 good rolls depending on surge and red gives you 3 or 4 good results.

22 minutes ago, Steck638 said:

Looking it up and seeing the result options, I think its to make it progressive, white you can have 1 or 2 good rolls depending on surge and red gives you 3 or 4 good results.

That is exactly the design. You can equate the following saves from other games: 6+, 5+, 4+, 3+. The only one Legion can't reproduce with the special die is a 2+.
For the attack die, the inclusion of the Crit changes which target number can't be reproduced, so the number equivalents of the various colors and surge conversions of attack die roughly equate to: 7+, 6+, 5+, 4+, 3+, and 2+.

1 hour ago, Steck638 said:

Ya, I was thinking red attack dice, 1 blank so red defense is the same... I'm a reb and Droid player, I don't use red dice much.

From my point of view, the red dice are evil!

2 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

From my point of view, the red dice are evil!

Well then you are lost!

19 hours ago, Steck638 said:

When I had given up on fleets, I was running scatter gun and officer for courage 2, puts them at 14pts less than mangos with a duelist. The mandos need approx 24 wounds with average rolls to kill them all (1 in 6 wounds is a failed save) vs the fleets 18 wounds needed. The fleets do 5.5 hits with pierce 1, vs the mandos 5 hits. The mandos aren't going to jump out and erase anything. Sure they are hard to kill, and thats nice, but they are hard to kill but swingy because average dice roll math is just averages, and red dice even with surge do quit and go home.

I'm sorry, I'm not doing the math for clan wren right now. Its one more wound, probably about the same damage, going from 4 models to 3 but swapping a black for a red and white. You have more special rules, but its hard to trigger them all, and 10pts more.

I really want to be wrong, but range 2 is what kills it for me, sure they are faster and harder than fleets, but with less damage than fleets and more expensive, what are you shooting with them? You could pick on lone units/operatives, and steer clear of sabers because they will still do a lot of damage if they get to you, but I don't think that's a niche the rebels have needed. Ya they are better than worries, but how many people are actually running wookies? Its a cool concept, and sort of like the worries, the biggest issue for me is the weapon option (not counting the named chars in this) doesn't help the unit do what I want it to do, it's a cool weapon, but not what I think it needs.

I am more intrigued by the rockets for doing something rebs need, but 8 puts on a 100pt unit that seems conflicted about its niche after shooting a tank is kinda meh.

Edit, correct math below, but still same conclusion by me

I really think you're underestimating how defensive of a keyword Jump 2 is. They don't even have to use their amazing save and super dodge combo if they can't get shot. And I've already thought of some ways to feed Clan Wren some aim tokens, such as calculate the odds on K2 and Creepio. I'll have Clan Wren sit behind a LoS blocker and get a retinue aim and calculate the odds on them and then jump out and hit somebody at r3 with the aims you need to feed those sweet keywords. A range three 1 red, 3 black, and 1 white is a solid dice pool when you have pierce 1. And when you're speed 3 you can be just a bit inside range 5 and still be able to move and get that attack off. They don't care about the suppression from calculate the odds because even if they would be suppressed dauntless means they'll always be able to get that all important first action move.

40 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

I really think you're underestimating how defensive of a keyword Jump 2 is. They don't even have to use their amazing save and super dodge combo if they can't get shot. And I've already thought of some ways to feed Clan Wren some aim tokens, such as calculate the odds on K2 and Creepio. I'll have Clan Wren sit behind a LoS blocker and get a retinue aim and calculate the odds on them and then jump out and hit somebody at r3 with the aims you need to feed those sweet keywords. A range three 1 red, 3 black, and 1 white is a solid dice pool when you have pierce 1. And when you're speed 3 you can be just a bit inside range 5 and still be able to move and get that attack off. They don't care about the suppression from calculate the odds because even if they would be suppressed dauntless means they'll always be able to get that all important first action move.

Not to mention ideally you'd ideally want to activate them last on one turn, then first on the next to minimize opportunities to shot then while maximizing damage.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Not to mention ideally you'd ideally want to activate them last on one turn, then first on the next to minimize opportunities to shot then while maximizing damage.

While I agree with this, I am worries the rebels have too many units that need to go last/first. I mean if we pair this with Sabine who are you going to last/first out of Sabine and Clan Wren? Most lists I have seen so far with clan wren are a rebel gunline variation which does help but this doesn't really have the punch to warrant last/first as its strength is red saves. Kind of one of those weird rebel tweener units.

jump 2 is map dependent because you can't always rely on LOS blocking terrain, and you can't always rely on LOS blocking terrain being in the right spot. So while it has been a good mechanic even since launch with Luke, it isn't a consistent option.

1 hour ago, Uetur said:

While I agree with this, I am worries the rebels have too many units that need to go last/first. I mean if we pair this with Sabine who are you going to last/first out of Sabine and Clan Wren? Most lists I have seen so far with clan wren are a rebel gunline variation which does help but this doesn't really have the punch to warrant last/first as its strength is red saves. Kind of one of those weird rebel tweener units.

jump 2 is map dependent because you can't always rely on LOS blocking terrain, and you can't always rely on LOS blocking terrain being in the right spot. So while it has been a good mechanic even since launch with Luke, it isn't a consistent option.

I agree that there has to be some consideration and choices to be made, and it will partially boil down to which unit can wait one extra activation on either end.

Not 100% sure but should t it be beskar duelist?

12 hours ago, kuffdaddy said:

Not 100% sure but should t it be beskar duelist?

Beskar is a metal, beskad is a sword.