So based on you guys advice I made this list.

My thought is to forgo Palp. The Reaper still has a white coordinate cuz T.O. And can give crazy maneuver with C.R.
I like the Adaptive Ailerons for running away or getting arc (if that’s in the cards.) I figure the back arc of Lambda helps defend it, but it’s 2 die and I’d rather fly unpredictably.

Plus Reaper is cheep enuf to let the Deltas have HLC and FCS to keep ships away from my 4K and be a bit scarier on the attack with FCS. (So is Lambda but not with Palp)

All I1 so choosing the order to activate may help. Probably not very often but whatevsss.

If they go for the Reaper first, great!

I appreciate all the help. Thank you.

I'll be a bit of a wet blanket. Ciena Ree is someone I looked into. There's some cool stuff you could do, but... mostly all of it could have been done by dialing in a different maneuver and using a different coordianted action.

At least to early in playing the list, you'd probably be better off with just a Shield Upgrade on the Reaper and floating a little bit of a bid, or maybe Agent Kallus for more of an offensive punch from the Reaper.

Cool. Thanks. It would be nice to have a third attack ship. It may be hard to get arc but the AA should help.

I do like the TIE Reaper as opposed to the Lambda - it's a medium base rather than large, has a slightly better dial and thanks to those Segnor's Loops can actually turn around to keep eyes on target.

If you haven't flown one before though, that Ailerons move can be difficult to get to grips with.

I'm with the Fig on Ciena Ree - it's a very niche ability, especially when applying to Initiative 1 ships that are likely to move first. Plus, you really want to keep those Defenders de-stressed as much as possible.

I'm also somewhat dubious on the HLCs and Fire Control Systems. At initiative 1, it's unlikely that the Defenders will be getting bullseye too often, and co-ordinate aside I don't see them going for Locks more often than they'll be relying on Focus or repositioning. The main advantage I see in these upgrades is as a points fortress on two very durable ships.

Incidentally, you can can fit 2 Deltas, a Reaper and a Bomber in the same list. Naked, of course, but that's a lot of health on the board!

Ok well here you probably have a lot more experience, but at least FCS seems good and cheep. Your right I don’t want to take locks so the FCS lets me NOT do that as often, wile still being a threat to high Green die ships.

HLC Fig told me can deter ships from blocking the predicable 4K. I would change it to Homing Missiles maybe to kill stealth devices.

Ciena can go. Shield seems good. Saves 2pt

I think I can handle AA. I played a Striker some times in 1E. It was odd at first but way fun. I can see how that can get out of hand with a bigger base though.

I don’t want to add a new ship cuz I want to keep T.O. on the Reaper for white coordinate.

So Homing Missiles or....???

I have some experience with Palp Defenders, though not much results to boast of. IMO the problem is destroying more points than the shuttle is worth, before the time runs out. And if a Delta is halved, the limited damage output becomes a greater liability.

I find having some coordinating ability quite useful with Deltas. Now you can fit OGP with AS and Palp, though that of course makes it a juicier target.

In 1e I had moderate success flying three PS6 x7s, and finished the edition winning a small SC with triple Deltas and an Academy.

I think the biggest problem with Ciena Ree is that she makes the following movement too predictable; Defenders hate stress since their dials are all white.

The one thing that I think could make it worthwhile is if you have it on a higher-initiative pilot like Vermeil or Kagi. Granted, I4 isn't enough to make your ship an ace, but you can still use it to get the advantage vs Swarms, and there is room if you fly the defenders naked.

Curious if this super-lock-heavy list could work:

Captain Kagi (48)
Fire-Control System (2)
Jamming Beam (0)
Ciena Ree (6)
ST-321 (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (67)
Fire-Control System (2)

Delta Squadron Pilot (67)
Fire-Control System (2)

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z165X113W12W24WWW162Y198X113WWY198X113WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

2-point bid vs I4 and you can use Ree to get you out of a really bad spot, block all alpha strikes and passive/double mods that could hurt your Defenders, and take a free lock for your trouble. It also works with Jendon for better locks but worse initiative. Dropping FCS and maybe the title from the Shuttle could get you TC/Tarkin if that's your thing but it's rarely worthwhile in my opinion.

Basically the point is to make the Defenders punch harder since that's their main drawback. I'll have to give this a try.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Curious if this super-lock-heavy list could work:

Captain Kagi (48)
Fire-Control System (2)
Jamming Beam (0)
Ciena Ree (6)
ST-321 (4)

ST-321 and FCS seems redundant. Also I’m not sure you should try to use a Lambda as an attack ship. Even the Reaper is bad at getting arc but that Lambda... Unless they want to jousts. But probably not cuz u got Defenders.

I like the FCS on the Deltas but it looks like that may be up for discussion.

3 minutes ago, andrewctr said:

ST-321 and FCS seems redundant.

The idea is that you're only coordinating once every 2 turns or so. You mostly want to reinforce. You're there to eat the locks and bait the opposing player. While they whittle down the Lambda your Defenders are making it to the endgame. And as long as they'll be hanging around your double-arced ship you probably will be taking potshots. 2 points to buff them turn-over-turn isn't that bad but isn't necessarily good either. The main point is flexibility. Basically you want to trade Kagi for equal points or more, which actually shouldn't be too hard to do as a reinforced Lambda can actually be pretty tanky and FCS Defenders can actually be pretty punchy.

It all depends though. The Jendon version is probably better than Kagi. This was mainly an I4 thought experiment.

25 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think the biggest problem with Ciena Ree is that she makes the following movement too predictable; Defenders hate stress since their dials are all white.

I've mostly thought about Ciena Ree as being used *first* to give you a spicy little twist before doing an already-dialed straight move. But it can mostly be replicated by just doing other moves directly. Both the pre-twist and the adjustment-twist might make sense on some I4s, but not at Init 1.

Alas, Kagi (Ree) + Onyx + Onyx is 202 points.

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Both the pre-twist and the adjustment-twist might make sense on some I4s, but not at Init 1.

That flexibility would be sweet. Just adjustment-twist on its own though seems worth something at I4 though?

8 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That flexibility would be sweet. Just adjustment-twist on its own though seems worth something at I4 though?

Hrm.

Kagi (Ciena Ree) plus ... maybe actually Ryad. She can pre-dial the straight, and have a lot of options after an early coordinate. Go straight with a Ciena Ree twist. Do a flip without.

Leaves 66 points... Echo with 5thB and Passives, but Phantoms hate stress? There kinda aren't great I4 to consider... stuff is mostly too small to fill the points, but too cheap to double-up.

As neat as Ciena Ree is on paper, I just don't see her ever actually being good.

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Hrm.

Kagi (Ciena Ree) plus ... maybe actually Ryad. She can pre-dial the straight, and have a lot of options after an early coordinate. Go straight with a Ciena Ree twist. Do a flip without.

Leaves 66 points... Echo with 5thB and Passives, but Phantoms hate stress? There kinda aren't great I4 to consider... stuff is mostly too small to fill the points, but too cheap to double-up.

As neat as Ciena Ree is on paper, I just don't see her ever actually being good.

Good thoughts...

With Kagi to steal the locks you can afford to bring more fragile ships since they won't have to take double-modded attacks or B-Foil double-taps, so maybe that's something.

Actually, Kagi/Ree with an Onyx and two Saber Interceptors just fit, and it has the punch of a 4-ship list. Those interceptors don't want to be left out in the cold though. How can you make a 3-ship list really punch? Double-mods and Juke?

Captain Kagi (48)
Ciena Ree (6)
Informant (5)
Ship total: 59

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Juke (7)
Targeting Computer (3)
Ship total: 46

Countess Ryad (80)
Juke (7)
Fire-Control System (2)
Ship total: 89

Total: 194

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z165XWW24W37WWY181X123W249WY195X123W113WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Leaves 6 points for I4 bid or Prockets on Ryad. Kagi with Ciena Ree and informant actually seems interesting to help you block or dodge those aces to keep an interceptor alive. Ryad can do what she wants and keep FCS/Juking away while the Saber skirts in and out, blocking and dodging as the Informant feeds info from the top ace. I4 is tricky because it's too high to always-focus and too low to always-evade. Juke might be a total waste. I wonder if half the time Kagi will just end up coordinating a focus to the Saber to give it the Defender's token-stack? Of course, with all the Resistance 5s lists out there this could run into heaps of trouble. Your informant only works on one centerpiece and most ace lists tend to run 3 or more nowadays.

Maybe Juke is a waste. A Sense Inquisitor seems like a safer bet, but again you have the problem of no punch in a 3-ship list.

Fun Post-script: Kagi/Informant fits with four Sabers and a 3-point bid. Could be fun, but still not as good as Sloane. Crazy she didn't get a nerf.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Actually, Kagi/Ree with an Onyx and two Saber Interceptors just fit, and it has the punch of a 4-ship list.

I'd typed that in, and deleted it. =P

For the above, I'd probably find a way to squeeze in, like, Turr Phenir. Or go with like, Seventh Sister or Fifth Brother. But raw red dice count feels too low.

//

Say... FCS + Proton Rockets seems like it might be a nice fit on the right Defender. FCS allows a lock to be saved for when it really matters, when you finally get that bullseye for the big 5-dice attack. Not sure I'd go with it on Deltas, but...

Just now, theBitterFig said:

For the above, I'd probably find a way to squeeze in, like, Turr Phenir

For 6 points I'd rather buy two upgrades on a Saber, Outmaneuver, or most of a Juke; Sabers feel like they want to evade anyway and the list needs to find punch somewhere... Still Juke feels like I'm just looking for places to spend points. Hmm.

🐝 1

🦋 2 🐝 2

🦋 1

🦋 3

C.R.

The butterflie is a defender.

fisrt it boosts, then turns left, then 4k

the bee is a x wing or whatever. Thinking you will just 4K, it talon rolls, and now defender is on its tail.

worth?

35 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Say... FCS + Proton Rockets seems like it might be a nice fit on the right Defender. FCS allows a lock to be saved for when it really matters, when you finally get that bullseye for the big 5-dice attack. Not sure I'd go with it on Deltas, but...

New thought: If we're trying to build around Kagi/Ree/I4 Defender, the problem that remains is getting a third ship in there that can punch above its weight and won't blow up too quickly. I present to you: MAJOR RHYMER!

Variation one: Locks for days. Please tell me this is way too cheesy to work? I don't see this working. But mini-hatchetman-Rhymer has always held a soft spot in my heart.

Captain Kagi (48)
Grand Moff Tarkin (6)
Ciena Ree (6)
Targeting Computer (3)
ST-321 (4)

Onyx Squadron Ace (74)
Fire-Control System (2)
Proton Rockets (6)

Major Rhymer (37)
Intimidation (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (5)
Afterburners (6)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z165XWW34W24W249W162Y197XW113WW102Y204X122W134WWWWWW105&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Alternatively, with an Informant to get him the blocks he so badly needs:

Captain Kagi (48)
Informant (5)
Ciena Ree (6)

Countess Ryad (80)
Juke (7)
Fire-Control System (2)
Proton Rockets (6)

Major Rhymer (37)
Intimidation (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (5)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z165XWW37W24WWY195X123W113WW102Y204X122W134WWWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

But here, Ryad seems too juicy a target at 95 points. Even without locks she can be killed by sufficiently-focused fire. Two tokens hold up to 2-3 attacks, then the chip damage comes in.

But this might be the best yet: Not one but TWO completely unusable imperial crew attempting to do something that no one has ever tried before! I give you, THE GRAND INQUISITOR!

Captain Kagi (48)
Grand Inquisitor (13)
Ciena Ree (6)
Ship total: 67

Onyx Squadron Ace (74)
Fire-Control System (2)
Proton Rockets (6)
Ship total: 82

Major Rhymer (37)
Intimidation (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (5)
Ship total: 45

Total: 194

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z165XWW33W24WWY197XW113WW102Y204X122W134WWWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Not sure how best to round this out; Missiles or Afterburners on Rhymer, Outmaneuver or Ryad on the Defender, or some toy on the Shuttle? Or keep some bid, maybe. Either way, with this one it doesn't matter who your informant is on, but from round to round you can wait and see which dial you need to respond too, and when it gets revealed out pops Ciena Ree, flipping Rhymer over to where he can APT it to death. He'll have a hard time with reloads every other round, especially combined with reds and Ree Stress, so it might be best to pack some spare missiles too. Not sure.

I'm also wondering if Ved Foslo might be a decent choice too, with a constant 3-attack with a free crit and potential spike damage as well, plus maneuver-slipping at I4...

Ciena Ree is a lot of fun with TIE x1s. At least 2 of them. 3 is funner!

I've debated it with Ryad... But I prefer to stay well away from stress there. Phantoms... hm... blues are almost not slow enough... but hmmmm.....*

Going back to the Reaper, I'm a big fan. But you'll be surprised how quickly they explode. I think the long game of the Delta's maybe doesn't suit it....

Perhaps Feroph with Vader and a Shield, nasty but sort of tanky. A big magnet, but that becomes useful in a way.

You can drop the shield and go for an SBP for matching Init, the basic I1 Vadersled seems pretty good value to me. Gets you the 2x HLC and 3pt spare. But I don't see it lasting long enough to buy 2x Delta enough time on target.

I wouldn't bother with Tac Officer. Used to be great at 2pt, offering the choice of red or white coord, but at 6pt, it's not worth it. You need to slow the Reaper down often and the red coord is really good. The odd couple times I'd like a white one, I miss it, but can easily do without. Definitely well worth getting used to.

The main thing with it, the only thing really, is that you have to plan around the sloop more clearly. It's gonna come, it's inevitable, but you have to be ready for it

With chunky Feroph, that'd be 199 with naked Delta's.

The I3-I1 relationship is a little awkward.

Reaper as a 3rd ship can be a little frail, just in general. Kinda needs to be in with 2 really evil things.

* Ciena Ree Vermeil Echo Seventh Sis with Sense.... HMMMM....

Genuinely confused about which topic I'd just replied to 🤣

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

MAJOR RHYMER!

Rex, Rhymer and Echo was fun for me. I flanked Rhymer hardest, which made things more fun for him.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I've debated it with Ryad... But I prefer to stay well away from stress there.

The reason I'm considering it all is Ryad... dial in a 3-straight or a 5-straight. Figure it out later.

Do you want to go straight? Use Ciena Ree and go straight after a twist? Change it to a white K-Turn? A regular defender has to decide on the K-Turn first, and then you lose out on any odd Ciena options, because you've already dialed in a white move. Ryad doesn't have to make that decision until Init 4 when you hopefully have some more information.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

* Ciena Ree Vermeil Echo Seventh Sis with Sense.... HMMMM....

MM HHMM .

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Genuinely confused about which topic I'd just replied to 🤣

This reminds me of another thing about defenders that's worthwhile for @andrewctr to know: ask ten players about Defenders, and you'll get twelve opinions.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Say... FCS + Proton Rockets seems like it might be a nice fit on the right Defender. FCS allows a lock to be saved for when it really matters, when you finally get that bullseye for the big 5-dice attack. Not sure I'd go with it on Deltas, but...

Maybe I figured it out:

• Delta (FCS, Proton Rockets) 75
• Delta (FCS, Proton Rockets) 75
• Scarif Base Pilot (Emperor Palpatine)

That list is juicy. Juicy like some nice ripe blackberries, or juicy like some old runny cheese? Hard to tell, but dang.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But mini-hatchetman-Rhymer has always held a soft spot in my heart.

42 points for APT Rhymer seems like he might be a total steal.

APT Rhymer, Juke Rexler, Juke Echo with 5Bro and Passives? APT Rhymer, FCS PRockets Ryad, Echo with 5Bro and Passives plus everyone has Marksmanship?

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

42 points for APT Rhymer seems like he might be a total steal.

He’s quite balanced by how stressed/disarmed he always is. He basically never gets to K-Turn. This is the main reason I want to see Adrenaline Rush come back. I’d pay 5 points for it on Rhymer.

Meanwhile I run intimidation to make them hit harder against aces when he blocks. One-shotting Grand Quiz feels soooooo good.

Also crits are a nightmare. Every single one seems like it’s taunting Rhymer personally. Direct Hit is the least annoying on him.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

He’s quite balanced by how stressed/disarmed he always is. He basically never gets to K-Turn. This is the main reason I want to see Adrenaline Rush come back. I’d pay 5 points for it on Rhymer.

Meanwhile I run intimidation to make them hit harder against aces when he blocks. One-shotting Grand Quiz feels soooooo good.

Oh yeah, range 0. I keep forgetting that. That'd work instead of triple Marksmanship with Ryad and Echo...

Another silly list:

• Rexler Brath (Marksmanship, Proton Rockets, Fire Control System) 88
• Maarek Stele (Marksmanship, Proton Rockets, Fire Control System, Afterburners) 60
• Grand Inquisitor (-) 52

Some nasty 5s. To be sure, worse than just running 5th Brother Whisper and like Soontir or something. But cooler. Also, Maarek is someone who seems like he kinda needs coordinate support. With that, he OWNS.

Now I'm just thinking about Rhymer with APT and Procket. 48. Huh.

We've come a long way from Vader D.