Most ships and list archetypes are viable right now, and that’s great for the game. However, many of the upper-level generic pilots see little to no use. Those extra 2-3 points are usually better spent on upgrades or cramming more ships into a list.

I really like Dedicated. It gives Republic players a legitimate reason to take the I3 torrent or ARC over the base generic. I’d like to see FFG introduce a cheap, non-limited exclusive EPT like Dedicated to bring a real purpose for taking a more expensive generic pilot (and sometimes lower initiative is a perk, not a drawback). Maybe something like this?

Coordinated Fire: While another friendly ship performs a primary attack against a ship in your firing arc, if you have not attacked this round, you may gain 1 deplete token to roll 1 additional attack die.

Fluff-wise, it makes sense. You weaken your own attack to help an ally, so two 2 die shots would become a 1 die shot and a 3 die shot. There’s already the premium price built into the talent slot on generics, so maybe 2 points for this.

I've been wanting this forever

I always thought marksmanship should be 0 points, just to give ept generics a slight power increase over their cheaper friends

It might be interesting to see the I1 pilots actually cost more than I2-3 because they are so good as blocks.

I'm very hype for generics only talents.

Generic Only, Veteran Instincts, adding +1 initiative, variably costed more the higher the native initiative.

Yeah, I said it. So there. Heh.

A strong pool of generic talents would help a bit with 'your dudesism' by making it easier to have powerful and interesting non-canon characters that are still good, but it would bias hard towards empowering ship types that already are really strong with generics, and if generics get pushed too hard it becomes sad that you can't fly the canon characters you picked the faction for.

I would just personally make getting a talent point or two a free a benefit on generic+ pilots, rather than making talents that specifically push them real hard. Their issue is that your mostly paying for the initiative, and if you give them a talent (other than something super cheap like heroic or crack shot) too you may as well go from generic+ to a full named character most of the time.

3 hours ago, Roller of blanks said:

I always thought marksmanship should be 0 points, just to give ept generics a slight power increase over their cheaper friends

This has the added benefit/cost of making bullseye mechanics significantly more 'default rules' rather than niche, which would help new players get better at 'seeking out' bullseyes but which would result in more measuring.

That said, talent slots are generally a cost gated advantage unlike say... modifications or sensors, in that even having the right to fill it means you paid some sort of tax. In that context think it is actually realistic to push filling those slots by making some useful 0 costers.

Both Composure and Marksmanship could be free, and another one or two free talents would be a good pool to have.

The game has needed upgrades that are specific to a certain ship. Like in 1.0. Tie Adv had things like accuracy corrector which let it always evade (though, that particular upgrade should unlikely be ported to 2.0), or how Tie Defs had x7 and tieD.

Currently the generics are primarily just: pick the best value, fly them the way they're supposed to be flown, and they'll "out-bulk" your enemy. The 1.0 way was better: pick the right generics that suit the synergy you want. Need to strip evades for firepower or Juke, take these. Need TLs? take these... etc etc.

14 hours ago, Roller of blanks said:

I always thought marksmanship should be 0 points, just to give ept generics a slight power increase over their cheaper friends

I agree in theory, but in practice, measuring bullseye can be slow IRL, often requiring marking ships when at r2-3, and I'm worried just how much collective time that would eat.

Scum Binayre Z95 is 22pts; the Init 3 Generic is 24, so you can fit 8 of them each with Crackshot in a fleet. Rebels can do the same, but at Init2 instead. This will hit better than most people expect because of the Crackshots. But, is it better than the Binayre's with Contraband or Deadman's Switches?

If the Imperial Tie Fighters could do this, you'd probably see them as a swarm (they can't - the lowest generic with a talent is 25pts).

If it becomes easier to take generics with talent slots, Crackshot would have to go up to prevent massed Cracking.

20 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Generic Only, Veteran Instincts, adding +1 initiative, variably costed more the higher the native initiative.

Yeah, I said it. So there. Heh.

Oddly, one of the things I liked about 2.0 was that it forced me to stop lamely stapling VI to any and all generics I fielded.

21 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Generic Only, Veteran Instincts, adding +1 initiative, variably costed more the higher the native initiative.

Yeah, I said it. So there. Heh.

Its a decent idea. whats the highest generic innitiative right now, a 5? most fancier generics are gonna be getting up to 4 or 5 with this... doesnt seem crazy

10 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

whats the highest generic innitiative right now, a 5?

4

11 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

4

Gotchya. for some reason I thought Vonregs had a higher ps generic

22 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Generic Only, Veteran Instincts, adding +1 initiative, variably costed more the higher the native initiative.

Yeah, I said it. So there. Heh.

Would need scaling based on boost/roll and if they are white and if ships have linked movement.

Just a nightmare.

Though four i5 fangs might be fun.

And i4 vipers too.

10 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

Would need scaling based on boost/roll and if they are white and if ships have linked movement.

Or just price it assuming they have access to boosts and rolls. After all, while you COULD up-initiative a Y-wing... well... Y-tho? Initiative has some benefits but its safe to assume if you want to boost the initiative of a generic past 4 you are doing it to get it to be an ace, and thus use scaling initiative to have the price increase be more aggressive at 4 and 5, though not to the point where you could just upgrade to a named character.

It also isn't the end of the world for this to 'push' ability-less aces with an extra pilot. Part of what makes aces lists good isn't just playing with perfect knowledge, but the fact most aces have double the action economy of most characters at least, with some going up to having triple, like Vader or all the Jedi. An ace that can, at best, boost and focus may not actually be that threatening in a squad of 4.

31 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Or just price it assuming they have access to boosts and rolls. After all, while you COULD up-initiative a Y-wing... well... Y-tho? Initiative has some benefits but its safe to assume if you want to boost the initiative of a generic past 4 you are doing it to get it to be an ace, and thus use scaling initiative to spike the price a bit at 4 and 5.

Or to get those ordinance target locks?

And being able to initiave kill

3 E wings at i5 would get double modded alpha strikes, with nearly no chance of return fire or arc dodging.

Its a matter of intent, do you intend to balance all upgrades for the majority of ships, or is this an upgrade thats specifically synergystic with a few chassis/pilots. Some players feel the game should reward identifying the synergy, wheras others want all upgrades equally useful and costed accordingly on all pilots and ships.

Obviously ordinace has higher value on higher initive ships but isnt costed accordingly and would also be easy to do. So the designers arent chasing that design path.

For example you might as well call it Ace Training and add the requirement of a white boost and white barrel roll.

Now it cant be used by anything but ace/superrioty chassis and can be priced accordingly.

I feel that increasing initive is so strong, this might not re-enter the game.

I do like the force uograde that lets tou shoot at i7 though, as its a constant choice about which trade off is best.

I feel like there should be a free talent that allows you set your initative to a lower value during set-up.

I find it annoying that i cant initiave match certain ships, even by paying more for a talent pilot.

I know higher initive is better but being abke to use L3-37 at Initive 1 would be useful, or dropping a kimogila to 2, for coordinated flying.

It certainly wouldnt be an instant choice as it has clear drawbacks, but some benefits for formation flying/blocking.

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

Or to get those ordinance target locks?

And being able to initiave kill

3 E wings at i5 would get double modded alpha strikes, with nearly no chance of return fire or arc dodging.

I am actually basing my opinion on 'this is probably safer than it seems if it is generic only' on the I4 E-wing. It ALREADY double mod alpha strikes with torps and initiative kills non-aces. It is just that isn't... good enough, and the main problem is its inability to secure modifications while knife fighting using its initiative.

Obviously this upgrade is dangerous, but generic only limits it a LOT, especially if hitting I5 costs you half way between an I4 generic and a named ace. Like I am not sure you would run 3 TIE Phantoms (one whisper, two generics) at I5 vs getting named characters.

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

I feel like there should be a free talent that allows you set your initative to a lower value during set-up.

I sometimes regret 'upgrading' from an Intimidation Phoenix to an intimidation Arvel vs swarms, so I can see the logic. Honestly someone in another thread floated the idea of being I1 as BETTER than I3 for this reason: you can always force blocks which benefits large lists more than one might expect. If that were to come to pass (I doubt it, it isn't very thematic with most generics for one), it would need to cost points, but I see no reason you can't say... lower all your rebels to 2 to fight better with 2 Tubes.

5 hours ago, dezzmont said:

I am actually basing my opinion on 'this is probably safer than it seems if it is generic only' on the I4 E-wing. It ALREADY double mod alpha strikes with torps and initiative kills non-aces. It is just that isn't... good enough, and the main problem is its inability to secure modifications while knife fighting using its initiative.

Obviously this upgrade is dangerous, but generic only limits it a LOT, especially if hitting I5 costs you half way between an I4 generic and a named ace. Like I am not sure you would run 3 TIE Phantoms (one whisper, two generics) at I5 vs getting named characters.

I sometimes regret 'upgrading' from an Intimidation Phoenix to an intimidation Arvel vs swarms, so I can see the logic. Honestly someone in another thread floated the idea of being I1 as BETTER than I3 for this reason: you can always force blocks which benefits large lists more than one might expect. If that were to come to pass (I doubt it, it isn't very thematic with most generics for one), it would need to cost points, but I see no reason you can't say... lower all your rebels to 2 to fight better with 2 Tubes.

An alternative solution is to have more generic pilots at each initiative.

If you had 1-4 generics pilots for all ships, with 3 and 4 having talents, would that be better for the game?

It would be easier for list building, but i can see keeping 5s and 6s for named pilots, just costed accordingly.

Also some named pilots dont have talents, couod that be a solution, for example if Fenn Rau cant take any talent, he isnt as good as with outmaneuver or fearless or predator.

But his pilot abilty and initive 6 are way better than any talent. Would that help tame some hyoer prevalent aces and ebcourage use of lower initive pilots?

On 7/25/2020 at 1:24 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Oddly, one of the things I liked about 2.0 was that it forced me to stop lamely stapling VI to any and all generics I fielded.

Yeah, but I hate Aces, with their uppity perfect knowledge and their tight fitting sweaters made of the Force. BORING

Heh, yeah in all seriousness, I hear ya. Maybe if it was a unique talent. Just enough to give one generic a little edge.

If an upgrade becomes automatic, it's not good. You know, like automatic modification of dice every round.

oh wait, I'm raaaaaaaaaaaaanting agaaaaaaaaaain

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

If an upgrade becomes automatic, it's not good. You know, like automatic modification of dice every round.

oh wait, I'm raaaaaaaaaaaaanting agaaaaaaaaaain

Automatic includes are bad, unless they help aces or swarms which are 'real X-wing' in which case they are good actually. And if something is niche but hurts aces, it is suuuuper toxic and should go away, don'tcahknow?

There are lot of issues with aces and force.

I would say the issue with aces is that aces are 'pushed' (AKA: They are balanced around 'supposed to be good.' Points balancing is always a matter of bias kids, no cost is ever objective, its all relative to what kind of game you want to make the game to be) and the initiative rules (especially the bidding rules) have a lot of problematic elements and maybe a rework of how ties function would be warranted.

The issue with force comes down to its default effect being way too stupid strong, and its really clearly a design limiter because it turns out ships and force crew farting out free no strings attached calculates wasn't a great idea long term, and it makes any alternative use to the force need to equal a full action or it just isn't good enough to be worth spending points on when a free action-less calculate a turn is already very strong. Force is in such a bad spot IMO that I would be shocked if we ended 2021 without core rules changes to force simply because how big a problem it is long term to anything that intends to grant or use force points.

How about just giving lower initiative pilots interesting abilities? Or do we have that and it just isn't getting used?

12 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Maybe if it was a unique talent. Just enough to give one generic a little edge.

Eh. I would think that folks would just take an ace, then.

Or, it would be auto-include on the one generic fielded.

Maybe in Epic it could be a nice card for flights of generics that then don't need an ace in them.

3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

How about just giving lower initiative pilots interesting abilities? Or do we have that and it just isn't getting used?

There are a few low IN pilot with abilities, but I think in general the aces have better abilities.

What the game needs is some low IN pilots with super cool abilities, where you need to weigh speed vs. prowess.

32 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Eh. I would think that folks would just take an ace, then.

Or, it would be auto-include on the one generic fielded.

Maybe in Epic it could be a nice card for flights of generics that then don't need an ace in them.

There are a few low IN pilot with abilities, but I think in general the aces have better abilities.

What the game needs is some low IN pilots with super cool abilities, where you need to weigh speed vs. prowess.

I thought we'd get more of that sort of thing with the Clones or abilities that needed more than one instance of the ability to work. I also think with this we're circling around again to squadron sorts of abilities.

Or, you know, they could make the I2-I3 jump not cost 2-3 points? Looking at you, TPV and Gamma Ace.

What's the deal, FFG? How on earth are we supposed to get 3 points of value out of taking a Gamma over a Scimitar?! It's a full 10% difference, and that's before you even add a talent.

Ruthless Gammas would be fun. But not 4 points per capita of fun. The reason Dedicated Blue Torrents are good has more to do with the fact that going from a Gold to a Blue is one point now than anything else.