2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yes, you are, and no, not really. What about the Harm half of the power?

The point you are missing is that it is a singular example of a broader point. There are other abilities like Misdirect, Imbue, and Ebb/Flow that would not work on a droid, but as a GM, I might allow them to if the player has Manipulate as well.

What about the Harm half? Manipulate can be used to injure droids as well. Thus, it functions fully as Heal/Harm on droids.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

What about the Harm half? Manipulate can be used to injure droids as well. Thus, it functions fully as Heal/Harm on droids.

No it doesn't. It allows you to inflict 1 additional system strain or strain on a successful combat check. That is completely different and entirely inferior to Harm.

Just want to say something regarding Merrin's "Teleportation" in Fallen Order. It's heavily implied she's not actually teleporting, and is deliberately deceiving Cal into thinking she's teleporting. It's more likely that she's making herself invisible, given her "appearance" and "disappearance" have the same effect as what she gives to the party's ship at the end of the game. Her voice can still be heard even when she isn't "physically present" as well, implying she's just invisible but still nearby. So there is no teleportation. It's basically just the Misdirect power being used creatively.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

No it doesn't. It allows you to inflict 1 additional system strain or strain on a successful combat check. That is completely different and entirely inferior to Harm.

Which, against most NPC droids, would be counted as wounds. Granted, not against a PC or Nemesis droid, but for the majority of droid NPCs the PCs would confront, Manipulate would inflict wound damage to them because they typically lack a Strain Threshold.

If you’re really looking to Wound a droid opponent directly with the Force, just use Bind , and spend a DSP. Bind works against droids.

Regardless, the main purpose of Manipulate is for repairs, and as such works just like Heal for Droids. And, as I said, by RAW, you can only activate one Force power at a time. You can’t combine multiple Force powers just like you can’t use multiple skills. This is because it requires an action to use a Force power, and you can only take one action per round. The only exception to this is the Enhance Control upgrade that allows you to make a Force leap as a maneuver.

6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Regardless, the main purpose of Manipulate is for repairs, and as such works just like Heal for Droids. And, as I said, by RAW, you can only activate one Force power at a time. You can’t combine multiple Force powers just like you can’t use multiple skills. This is because it requires an action to use a Force power, and you can only take one action per round. The only exception to this is the Enhance Control upgrade that allows you to make a Force leap as a maneuver.

I know that, and I don't care. Besides, I'm not talking about combining them. It's a matter of a passive allowance. "Because you have Manipulate, I'll allow this other power to affect droids."

9 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

"Because you have Manipulate, I'll allow this other power to affect droids."

I actually like this and will use it as well.

10 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Just want to say something regarding Merrin's "Teleportation" in Fallen Order. It's heavily implied she's not actually teleporting, and is deliberately deceiving Cal into thinking she's teleporting. It's more likely that she's making herself invisible, given her "appearance" and "disappearance" have the same effect as what she gives to the party's ship at the end of the game. Her voice can still be heard even when she isn't "physically present" as well, implying she's just invisible but still nearby. So there is no teleportation. It's basically just the Misdirect power being used creatively.

I can see this interpretation, but I just re-watched the scenes in the video above and I am not sure that it is the case. It is inconclusive. The green effects do not really play a factor as all the Nightsister magick is shown that way and Cal even comments during game play that he does not know how she is keeping up with him. In addition, we also know that Mother Talzin teleported away when she was confronted by Grievous in the clone wars show. Her method was a little bit slower though, but it was clearly a teleportation.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I know that, and I don't care. Besides, I'm not talking about combining them. It's a matter of a passive allowance. "Because you have Manipulate, I'll allow this other power to affect droids."

Except you did talk about combining Force powers, passive or otherwise. That’s what brought up this tangent. 😝

20 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

He was able to physically interact with his surroundings, though. I don't think you can do that with Misdirect.

Maybe a combination of Conjure and Misdirect with eighty-five million range upgrades?

20 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You are correct, I remembered the scene backwards (partly because I haven't watched it since it came out). I thought they made a point of showing that he left footprints when he didn't really. I was basing most of my point off of that in particular, and I don't remember the rest of the scene well enough to argue the point from a different angle.

However, to my point about Conjure and Misdirect, I was not saying use Conjure instead of Misdirect, I was saying combine the two . Create a doppelganger with Misdirect, then give it form with Conjure.

(Emphasis mine). Yes, as a GM, you can change the rules however you want. But, at least by RAW, what you were suggesting isn’t allowed, and could have potential repercussions on game balance.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except you did talk about combining Force powers, passive or otherwise. That’s what brought up this tangent. 😝

(Emphasis mine). Yes, as a GM, you can change the rules however you want. But, at least by RAW, what you were suggesting isn’t allowed, and could have potential repercussions on game balance.

I was talking about narrative combination. Not mechanical combination. I can see how that wasn't entirely clear though, but I think it should have been apparent from previous comments.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But, at least by RAW, what you were suggesting isn’t allowed, and could have potential repercussions on game balance.

Range issues aside, why would it not be allowed to use an Action to create the Misdirect illusion of yourself, sustain that according to the sidebar guidance in F&D, and then use your next action to do the Conjure.

The only issue with this conception of it, by RAW, is Luke's range.

And granted, I don't have the book with the full text of Conjure, but again, why do you even need the Misdirect? The Conjure Mastery says you can summon a "facsimile of a creature" of Sil 1. Luke is Sil 1 and a creature, so... I think you're just wrong @Tramp Graphics .

4 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Range issues aside, why would it not be allowed to use an Action to create the Misdirect illusion of yourself, sustain that according to the sidebar guidance in F&D, and then use your next action to do the Conjure.

The only issue with this conception of it, by RAW, is Luke's range.

And granted, I don't have the book with the full text of Conjure, but again, why do you even need the Misdirect? The Conjure Mastery says you can summon a "facsimile of a creature" of Sil 1. Luke is Sil 1 and a creature, so... I think you're just wrong @Tramp Graphics .

There are a number of issues, aside from range. The first is duration. A facsimile only lasts until the end of the next round. Secondly, the upgrade allows to creation of a creature , not a person . In other words, it conjures monsters. Luke is not a “creature”. He’s a person, secondly, Conjure does not allow you to make a copy of yourself. Misdirect does, albeit an illusory copy. And this is consistent either what we see on screen. The doppelgänger Luke sent to Krait was an illusion . It had no physical substance.

In narrative play, a "round" can of course be as long as the GM deems to be appropriate. Not to mention it of course could just be re-upped. So, invalid.

Just thought to look and Conjure has a Commit Duration upgrade too, so like, where did you ever think you had a leg to stand on with duration? LOL

And, sorry, where's that definition of creature? Creature just means a living and breathing thing. Humans are living and breathing creatures. Conjure can create a facsimile of a human, again not having the full language from the book, but nothing I'm aware of says it can't be a specific human.

And actually you clearly can Conjure specific creatures, because if you have the corpse of the specific creature, you get Duration for "free".

21 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

...

There are other abilities like Misdirect, Imbue, and Ebb/Flow that would not work on a droid, but as a GM, I might allow them to if the player has Manipulate as well.

21 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

Yeah. This is going to be a potential issue in my ongoing campaign. I've a got a droid player, and a heavy Force-related plot for one of the PCs. The easiest way is to always split them up, but this discussion on combined checks gave me some ideas.

I think I'd let a player with Manipulate use certain Force powers that normally would useless on droids, like Misdirect, on droids if they have any fitting and relevant upgrades, but without a second roll. Perhaps too kind, but its easier.

...

Here's my two credits' worth of opinion on droids and the Ebb/Flow power (taken from my own post in the thread listed below) ...

The underlying theme of the Ebb/Flow power is that of playing with the flow of the Force as it affects probability and prescience. Therefore the power is related to the Unifying Force (as opposed to the more biologically-focused Living Force). Not once does it require that the target be a living creature.

However, some GMs believe that the basic form of Ebb shouldn't affect droids. The main reasoning seems to be that droids as mechanical beings "cannot be affected by mind-altering Force powers" ( EotE p. 47) and that suffering Strain is a mental effect. I disagree with that reasoning in relation to Ebb.

Ebb does not alter the minds of the user's enemies (unlike Influence), instead it affects the flow of the Force as expressed in probability and prescience. This could be expressed as follows ... Did the living enemy accidentally over-extend himself and therefore suffer physical stress? Did the droid suddenly have a circuit misfire and therefore suffer physical stress?

Droids are obviously not immune to suffering from Strain (see, for example, Ion damage), and Strain does not come from just mental sources. As per its description ( EotE p. 216, FaD p. 222), Strain includes physical effects - minor electrical shocks, being violently shaken, suffering from overheating, etc. - as well as the more commonly used mental/emotional effects and Stun damage. If a droid is subjected to electrical shocks, to having its "circuits shaken" from being thrown around, or is overheated, then it too should likewise be able to suffer from the related Strain.

The Ebb form of the Ebb/Flow power "hinders" those around the user. Who's to say that that hindering doesn't manifest itself as Strain from an accidentally mis-firing circuit or some other (im)probable factor? A living enemy accidentally pulls a muscle, a mechanical droid suffers a short circuit.

The above was taken from my own post in this thread:

The strain to a droid could just be its brain going "does not compute, does not compute" while seeing the Force in action.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There are a number of issues, aside from range. The first is duration. A facsimile only lasts until the end of the next round. Secondly, the upgrade allows to creation of a creature , not a person . In other words, it conjures monsters. Luke is not a “creature”. He’s a person, secondly, Conjure does not allow you to make a copy of yourself. Misdirect does, albeit an illusory copy. And this is consistent either what we see on screen. The doppelgänger Luke sent to Krait was an illusion . It had no physical substance.

Something that is being overlooked is the movie goes to some effort to point out that interstellar projections are something regular Force powers should not be able to do, and that it is something that kills the user, even if he's a powerful Jedi Master.

8 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Something that is being overlooked is the movie goes to some effort to point out that interstellar projections are something regular Force powers should not be able to do, and that it is something that kills the user, even if he's a powerful Jedi Master.

Yep 👍

On 7/22/2020 at 2:18 PM, DarthKaage said:

I can see this interpretation, but I just re-watched the scenes in the video above and I am not sure that it is the case. It is inconclusive. The green effects do not really play a factor as all the Nightsister magick is shown that way and Cal even comments during game play that he does not know how she is keeping up with him. In addition, we also know that Mother Talzin teleported away when she was confronted by Grievous in the clone wars show. Her method was a little bit slower though, but it was clearly a teleportation.

Is it instant teleportation Talzin does or does she just dematerialise in one place, and then rematerialise in another later? Powerful either way, of course.

Whilst playing Fallen Order I thought it was ambiguous whether Merrin was teleporting, dematerialising and rematerialising (but with travel time), or simply going invisible and/or projecting images of herself when she wasn’t really there. I thought the ambiguity worked - it fits her character.

Talzin created a green doorway in front of her and stepped through vanishing from the building she was in just as Grevious cornered her.

Wonder if Talzin was using the world between worlds

Well they didn’t come up with the WBW yet, but it could be possible.

19 hours ago, DarthKaage said:

Well they didn’t come up with the WBW yet, but it could be possible.

we dont know they didnt. Mortis is also probably in the WBW

On 7/20/2020 at 2:04 PM, DarthKaage said:

Examples of the Fallen Order Nightsister Teleportation can be seen in this video. She frequently teleports herself and sometimes others around the planet. Ranges are not terrible long, and I suppose you could still flavor Jump to do this, but where is the fun in that. I thought a power to cover this and Rey in one package might be warranted.

The Nightsisters (especially Merrin) are never seen teleporting long distances (only short distances on screen or teleporting off-screen), so this is definitely a narrative flair on the Enhance upgrades. Through it you can move to any location in Range, which whether you're "leaping" "sprinting" or "Nightsister Mist Walking" there doesn't matter mechanically, only narratively.

I'd use Enhance Force leap and rename it Nightsister Teleportation.

Functionally it works the same as Force Leap, but they merely arrive at the destination as opposed to leaping through the air.