I've got a Sabacc game coming up as part of my next session. It's been quite a while since my players have embraced their inner card shark. In fact, it's been so long that some of them have awakened to their Force powers since then.

Since I know it'll come up, how should I go about letting Influence and Misdirect affect the game? What's a good Conflict cost for using the Force to cheat? Should that apply when playing against a criminal gang? Especially when the stakes are the potential enslavement of innocents (hypothetically speaking, of course)?

I'm also looking for ideas to spice up this part of the session, so if you have any fun stories about the Force and gambling, I'd like to hear/read them.

7 hours ago, intothenight said:

I've got a Sabacc game coming up as part of my next session. It's been quite a while since my players have embraced their inner card shark. In fact, it's been so long that some of them have awakened to their Force powers since then.

Since I know it'll come up, how should I go about letting Influence and Misdirect affect the game? What's a good Conflict cost for using the Force to cheat? Should that apply when playing against a criminal gang? Especially when the stakes are the potential enslavement of innocents (hypothetically speaking, of course)?

I'm also looking for ideas to spice up this part of the session, so if you have any fun stories about the Force and gambling, I'd like to hear/read them.

what is the goal of the cheating personal gain? Freeing a slave? the intent matters here.

Sense is better than misdirect or influence. Reading the other's thoughts coul be done without showing anything. While the other two need to make fancy hand's move and to speak out loud what you want the other to believe. You can bet a Force user trying to cheat will be spotted very quickly if he / she does that.

And why cheat at a card game should give conflict, whatever the intent ? For me it's the same non-sense that lies should give conflict. I don't understand why.

2 hours ago, WolfRider said:

And why cheat at a card game should give conflict, whatever the intent ? For me it's the same non-sense that lies should give conflict. I don't understand why.

Cheating is stealing. You are taking something that you have no right to because you are violating the inherent agreement of a gambling game. If you just casually cheat at cards cause you want more credits, that's selfish, it's stealing, and it would fall under at least one category on the Conflict chart.

Lies are fairly similar in this regard. Typically, when you lie you are doing something for selfish gain and you are wronging the other party. In the event you are manipulating them into doing something, it may be even worse.

Does Qui-Gon Jinn gain conflict for manipulating a chance cube against Watto? He is freeing exactly one slave no matter what color comes up, therefore selfish desire seems to be his motive for cheating - rather than emancipation. No wonder Anakin turns to evil with a mentor like that.

wdg

8 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Sense is better than misdirect or influence. Reading the other's thoughts coul be done without showing anything. While the other two need to make fancy hand's move and to speak out loud what you want the other to believe. You can bet a Force user trying to cheat will be spotted very quickly if he / she does that.

Agreed that Sense is better, but none of my PCs have it. And if I remember the control upgrades right, you could even use Foresee to look at everyone else's cards... Fortunately, Misdirect and Influence are the main powers I have to worry about.

2 hours ago, intothenight said:

Agreed that Sense is better, but none of my PCs have it. And if I remember the control upgrades right, you could even use Foresee to look at everyone else's cards... Fortunately, Misdirect and Influence are the main powers I have to worry about.

Forgot about Foresee. You're right with the right upgrade it's the best Force Power for playing card games. 😈

9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Cheating is stealing. You are taking something that you have no right to because you are violating the inherent agreement of a gambling game. If you just casually cheat at cards cause you want more credits, that's selfish, it's stealing, and it would fall under at least one category on the Conflict chart.

Lies are fairly similar in this regard. Typically, when you lie you are doing something for selfish gain and you are wronging the other party. In the event you are manipulating them into doing something, it may be even worse.

Cheating and lying are bad most of the time and evil only a few other times. Imo, bad behaviour isn't enough to earn conflict but evil behaviour should always deserve conflict points. Intent matters less that what is done by the PC. Doing evil things with a good intent will still earn conflict, but less than doing the same evil thing with a no good intent. And doing good thing with a no good intent won't earn any conflict.

It's a stretch, but there's probably an argument for Farsight (perhaps seeing on the flip side of the top card of the deck) and Seek (seeking an advantageous card).

11 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Forgot about Foresee. You're right with the right upgrade it's the best Force Power for playing card games. 😈

Cheating and lying are bad most of the time and evil only a few other times. Imo, bad behaviour isn't enough to earn conflict but evil behaviour should always deserve conflict points. Intent matters less that what is done by the PC. Doing evil things with a good intent will still earn conflict, but less than doing the same evil thing with a no good intent. And doing good thing with a no good intent won't earn any conflict.

Again it depends on why you are lying. Are you lying to keep a force sensitive kid away from an inquisitor. I dont see how that is wrong in any way. But telling the truth likely would be conflict worthy. Circumstances and intent matter.

Using Force powers to do something wrong should always come with Conflict, in my opinion, even if the wrong thing you are doing is fairly minor and might not otherwise carry Conflict.

The way the rules are worded - and with the exception of Lying which includes intent as a factor in it's description, the intent only matters to add additional Conflict into an actions "base" Conflict value.

So, if you're doing a Conflict worthy thing for the "wrong" reason, the GM should increase the Conflict they receive.

Otherwise, as written, certain actions - again with the exception of Lying - ALWAYS warrant Conflict. Even if they're doing it for the "right" reason.

Furthermore, following this guidance as written in my experience leads to a functioning Mortality mechanic.

There is almost always a non-Conflict option that the character(s) could persue. It may be Jess likely to succeed. It may be more difficult. But it's an option. So they're choosing to get a little dirty.

So, don't be afraid to give Conflict for things that the table says should get Conflict.

IF you want a functioning Morality mechanic anyway.

Remember: just like Obligation and Duty, Morality is literally only there with the game design intent of complicating a Force user's life/gameplay - by making them make a tough choice. So, you need to give out Conflict, IF you want to use the mechanic as it was intended to serve in the role it is intended.

So what if Qui Gon did get 1 measly Conflict for flipping that die? You don't think he - THE "gray" Jedi - would do it? Just because you see a Jedi do something in canon DOES NOT mean it doesn't earn them Conflict.

What it means is JEDI TAKE CONFLICT REGULARLY.

17 hours ago, welldressedgent said:

Does Qui-Gon Jinn gain conflict for manipulating a chance cube against Watto? He is freeing exactly one slave no matter what color comes up, therefore selfish desire seems to be his motive for cheating - rather than emancipation. No wonder Anakin turns to evil with a mentor like that.

wdg

Heh.

The movie makes it clear that Watto rigged the toss, though, so there wasn't a game of chance to begin with. Just an (attempted) con on Watto's part. Ergo Qui-Gon can't be cheating.

I think he probably got some conflict for trying to straight up steal the hyperdrive initially, but the chance cube roll was all good.

On 7/19/2020 at 10:19 PM, WolfRider said:

Forgot about Foresee. You're right with the right upgrade it's the best Force Power for playing card games. 😈

Cheating and lying are bad most of the time and evil only a few other times. Imo, bad behaviour isn't enough to earn conflict but evil behaviour should always deserve conflict points. Intent matters less that what is done by the PC. Doing evil things with a good intent will still earn conflict, but less than doing the same evil thing with a no good intent. And doing good thing with a no good intent won't earn any conflict.

So by your definition, one could only fall to the darkside through evil actions only?

2 hours ago, CloudyLemonade92 said:

So by your definition, one could only fall to the darkside through evil actions only?

Yes. I include using darkside pips in that.

20 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Yes. I include using darkside pips in that.

That's not how Anakin fell. All he wanted to do is protect his family. All the childmurdering came after he fell.

And what pushed him over the edge was Mace Windu showing him that the Jedi were no better than the Sith.

12 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

That's not how Anakin fell. All he wanted to do is protect his family. All the childmurdering came after he fell.

And what pushed him over the edge was Mace Windu showing him that the Jedi were no better than the Sith.

He acted out of emotion. Which is part of why darkside pips exist in the game. It is basically the games way of including he emotional componant of force use. and lets the player decide if they act on those emotions.

21 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

That's not how Anakin fell. All he wanted to do is protect his family. All the childmurdering came after he fell.

And what pushed him over the edge was Mace Windu showing him that the Jedi were no better than the Sith.

LOL no. Anakin murdered a village full of people (including kids) in a rage. That was years before he became Vader. And the Jedi no better than the Sith? That's ridiculous.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

LOL no. Anakin murdered a village full of people (including kids) in a rage. That was years before he became Vader. And the Jedi no better than the Sith? That's ridiculous.

He also did a lot of very questionable things during the clone wars. A lot of it involving acting out of anger and hate. His intent might have been good. but his methods and mental state while doing the acts were not good. People tend to not make good choices when they are angry.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

He acted out of emotion. Which is part of why darkside pips exist in the game. It is basically the games way of including he emotional componant of force use. and lets the player decide if they act on those emotions.

Sure, but that is not what was being argued. The claim was that emotion and intent don't matter, only actions do.

56 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

LOL no. Anakin murdered a village full of people (including kids) in a rage. That was years before he became Vader. And the Jedi no better than the Sith? That's ridiculous.

Taken from Anakin's perspective, yes they are equal.

The Jedi obviously don't care whether his mother lives or dies, and they don't allow him to be with the woman he loves.

And when it comes to Jedi/Sith moral...

Palpatine: "Kill Him, kill him now" [Anakin kills him now] "You did well Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive".

...much later, at the exact moment Anakin switches sides and truelly falls to the dark side...

Anakin: "You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial".

Mace Windu:"He is too dangerous to be kept alive".

To me, this is what really pushed Anakin over the edge: the Jedi proved themselves unworthy.

11 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Taken from Anakin's perspective, yes they are equal.

The Jedi obviously don't care whether his mother lives or dies, and they don't allow him to be with the woman he loves.

And when it comes to Jedi/Sith moral...

Palpatine: "Kill Him, kill him now" [Anakin kills him now] "You did well Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive".

...much later, at the exact moment Anakin switches sides and truelly falls to the dark side...

Anakin: "You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial".

Mace Windu:"He is too dangerous to be kept alive".

To me, this is what really pushed Anakin over the edge: the Jedi proved themselves unworthy.

I also don't think Anakin every really got any higher than 70 morality. And that was pre attack of the clones. Which he probably dropped to around 50 after the sand People and then hovered around there through the entire clone wars. Then he murdered Dooku. Then resorted to violence with Mace. So I think your assessment could be correct.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I also don't think Anakin every really got any higher than 70 morality. And that was pre attack of the clones. Which he probably dropped to around 50 after the sand People and then hovered around there through the entire clone wars. Then he murdered Dooku. Then resorted to violence with Mace. So I think your assessment could be correct.

Yes, it can very easily argued that Anakin never fell at all: he started out genocidally evil and got progressiveley worse from there. It's the worst thing about the entire Prequel trilogy to me. The guy from the Clone Wars show has very little in common with movie!Anakin.

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

Sure, but that is not what was being argued. The claim was that emotion and intent don't matter, only actions do.

I never said that. I said intent matters LESS than actions and not that intent doesn't matter. Emotions matters when you use darkside pips. Because how I understand it, using darkside pips means you fuel your Force's use through negative, evil and darks emotions. While using lightside pips means you fuel your Force's use through positive, good and bright / light emotions.

6 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Yes, it can very easily argued that Anakin never fell at all: he started out genocidally evil and got progressiveley worse from there. It's the worst thing about the entire Prequel trilogy to me. The guy from the Clone Wars show has very little in common with movie!Anakin.

I think that is a consequence of trying to fit it all in a movie when it really benefited far more from episodic story telling.

I also dont think he started Genocidal. He started as a slave and never stopped being treated that way. Never stopped being dismissed. Never was validated. Was told to ignore his visions.