Not something we`ve experienced yet, but it might come. Heroes are in town for recuperate/train or visit, one hero enters the market. Market rating is 3 and 3 treasure cards are revealed. After revealing the 3 cards, the heroes notice there are only 2 unrevealed treasure cards left, and decide to buy them. Both happens to be Treasure Cache. Grabbing the potion/money granted by the Treasure Cache, what happens next? Are the heroes allowed to take one of the 3 items at the market? Or are they given back the money spent?

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that in RtL, you cannot buy any unrevealed treasure cards.

Moneseki said:

Heroes CANNOT purchase unrevealed treasure cards in RtL or SoB. Any cards that come up as "treasure cache" during a market week represent lack of stock and are immediately discarded and not redrawn.

A part we obviously missed......

rlt page 22: "...All heroes who visit that Market that week may purchase items from among the drawn cards.... " and also shop weapons. Thanks for pointing this out. The only situation my setting could occur is then if party is in a dungeon, visit the market, reveal the 3 cards then later find a chest in the dungeon. Rolling a blank then taking a copper treasure. The copper treasure is a cache and all the remaining cards are caches. Would the heroes then be entitled a CP or nothing?

What if the heroes descend deeper and opens another chest, by some divine roll all 4 dices turns out to be blank. My guess is the heroes come out emptyhanded?

Moneseki said:

1) While I realize this is theoretical, I'm not sure if its actually possible to run out of treasure cards in RtL due to inventory limitations on the heroes and because discarded treasure cards (at least ones sold or not bought at the market) get reshuffled back into the deck.

2) You only get the option to purchase from the three cards that are draw for that game week, so you couldn't buy those two cards anyways.

Somewhat unrelated but I just noticed this bolded part. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you said, but to the best of my knowledge you don't get the money/potion if these are drawn in the Market, they are simply discarded.

Moneseki said:

They wouldn't get any Conquest since they still rolled a blank and drew a treasure. The treasure just happened to be a pile of money and a potion instead of an item. My guess would be yes that they come out empty handed. There is the possibility that since the deck is depleted for that game week, that the heroes would then be entitled to 1 Conquest because they were unable to draw a Treasure card.

what do you do about treasure cache cards that are found in chests or at the market and dropped item cards? - do you throw them in the graveyard when you're done with them or do you shuffle them back in the deck? If you shuffle them back in, what is the time frame for that? at the end of the game week? at the end of a dungeon? immediately?

please tell me what YOU do, even if there are no rules governing these topics.

Eric! said:

Treaure cash cards,regardless if gotten in a chest or the market get reshuffled with their appropriate decks. Same thing for dropped item cards. The only way of items entering the graveyard is something that specifically says it does that.

Typically, reshuffling of decks happens at the end of the game week. This is my extrapolation from the Market rules that says that any items not purchased from the Market at the end of a given game week get reshuffled back into the deck. However, sold items are immediately reshuffled into their decks.

Big Remy said:

Inventory limits don't prevent it, due to the Pack of Holding. I recall a thread a long time ago where people discussed "breaking" the treasure deck by putting all non-treasure cache cards into the Pack, and wondering if the heroes could then get infinite money by reshuffling the treasure caches and "drawing another card" forever.

Though I made a brief search of the RtL rules and wasn't able to find anything that says what happens to discarded treasure cards (in vanilla, it's implied that they're removed from the game). Could you provide a reference to the rule stating they get reshuffled?

Yeah, I remembered the Pack of Holding after I made the statement but didn't get a chance to go back and edit my response.

As for treasure items in RtL/SoB I know for ones that were not bought at the Market, it follows the rules on page 22 of RtL.

The Market: Treasure and shop items are bought and sold at the Market.
Visit, Train, or Restock
When the first hero visits a given Market in a given game week, a number of cards equal to the city’s Market rating are drawn from the treasure deck that corresponds to the current campaign level. “Treasure Cache” cards are discarded (and are not replaced, instead representing a market shortage that week). All heroes who visit that Market that week may purchase items from among the drawn cards. Of course, once particular cards are purchased, they are not available to heroes who visit the Market later the same week. Copper items cost 250 coins to purchase, Silver items cost 500 coins, and Gold items cost 750 coins. Any shop item can also be purchased at the Market for its listed cost; these are not drawn as above, but are always available. A hero must be able to carry a given item in order to purchase it. Items can also be sold at the Market, for half their purchase price. Sold items are re-shuffled into the decks they came from. At the end of a given week, any treasure items that were not purchased from the Market are re-shuffled into the decks they came from.

It just says discarded, not removed from the game for the Treasure Cache cards.

As for items dropped in a dungeon, as far as I can tell from the base game rules it just gets discarded but the decks don't get reshuffled in the base game. However, since the treasure deck at the end of the week in RtL/SoB do get shuffled my impression (at least, if there are unpurchased items) has always been that discarded treasure cards (items or treasure cache cars) just get reshuffled in. Otherwsie, you would end up with two different discard piles.

In partial backup of that view (and I will admit its not an entirely convincing argument) is that in the FAQ under RtL there is an entry that states that treasure items destroyed by Crushing Blow are discarded, not removed from the game, and shuffled back into their decks when those decks are shuffled.

Mechanistically, the treasure deck would rapidly run out if you discarded dropped items or treasure cache cards from the game since each 3 level dungeon in RtL has a chance of giving out a minimum of 12 treasure cards (there is always 1 chest per level, sometimes 2).

Big Remy said:

I don't immediately see why there would be two discard piles: the rules you quoted don't say to discard items sold to the shop, or market items that are not purchased; they say to shuffle them back into the deck. Presumably that means immediately.

The FAQ answer regarding Crushing Blow certainly implies that "discarded" treasures are reshuffled at some point, though. I wonder if that's supposed to happen promptly, or not until the treasure deck is empty.

We always shuffle discarded treasures back into the deck immediately. This means it is possible to draw the same crappy weapon twice in the same dungeon, or to get the same chain of three treasure caches twice in the same dungeon, but I figure it all evens out, and it's easier to keep track of, too. I could understand why people would want to wait till the end of the week to reshuffle, though.

Regarding running out of treasure cards, I'd treat it like running out of potion tokens is treated: there are only so many in the world, and if the heroes manage to exceed that limit, they're out of luck. Besides, if they've actually managed to run through all the treasure cards somehow, I can't imagine feeling sorry for them that they got robbed of one treasure.

Antistone said:

We've always just gone with no shuffling until the end of the game week, so if you discard in the middle of a dungeon then you need to wait until the next game week for that item to show up.