Just a quick question: I know the shadows agenda lets me run out of house shadow cards with a one gold penalty when i bring them out of shadows. If i have the alliance plot revealed, is this penalty erased? any info would be greatly appreciated.

lannipanda said:

It is not a gold penalty. So, Alliance does not erase it.

Oh, and important thing: bringing card out of Shadows (i.e. putting card into play) is not playing a card, so it is another reason that Alliance don't work with this.

Rogue30 said:

I do not believe this is accurate. Alliance does reduce the cost of a card coming out of Shadow.

According to the rules, the extra gold for shadows OOH IS a gold penalty and Alliance would reduce it:

"When a card is brought out of Shadows in this manner, the non-Shadows portion of its gold cost (the number printed after the “s” in the card’s cost), as well as any applicable gold penalties, is paid, or the card cannot come out of Shadows."

You can check the Shadows mechanics rules:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=10&esem=4

The point that you are overlooking LaughingTree is that the OOH gold penalty is not "applicable" to bringing cards out of Shadows. The gold penalty is defined in terms of playing a card (which is a specific action distinct from putting a card into play, which is what you do when bringing a card out of shadows):

If, during marshalling, you wish to play a charac-
ter, location, or attachment that is affiliated with
a different House, the gold cost to play that card
is increased by 2. This is called the gold penalty,
and it is the price that must be paid for playing
characters that are not loyal to your House. You
pay no gold penalty when playing neutral cards.

There is no other out of house gold penalty for Shadows cards because all house specific Shadows cards have the "House X only" clause (making it impossible to play them with the Shadows agenda, which in turn specifies its own gold penalty).

Rogue30 said:

LaughingTree, schrecklich, this is the point you are both overlooking in terms of Alliance and bringing OOH cards (that are in your deck because of the Shadow agenda) out of Shadows.

First, though:

- The extra gold imposed by the Shadow Agenda for "House X only" cards that do not match your House is, indeed, a gold penalty. Pretty much any gold added to the cost by a card effect is considered a gold penalty - although there could be some confusion since some cards specify "this is considered a gold penalty" and come cards (like the Shadow Agenda) do not.

- The extra gold imposed by the Shadow Agenda for "House X only" cards that do not match your House is not, in fact, the same as the OOH gold penalty defined by the rules. The situation does not match the definition, anyway.

So, Shadow Agenda is a gold penalty, but not the OOH gold penalty.

Alliance wipes out all gold penalties (not just the OOH gold penalty), but only when you play a card. Specifically, the text says "You may play cards from other Houses without paying a gold penalty." Bringing a card out of Shadows is not playing a card (check those Shadows rules, as well as the limitations and clarification of Fear of Winter). Since bringing a card out of Shadows is not playing a card, Alliance has no interaction with it at all, gold penalty or not.

which also might be why alliance and not Under one banner (ignore all gold penalties) came back.

ktom said:

Sorry, I was unclear, but I was basically trying to make all of these points in my post (I distinguished between playing and putting into play in the first paragraph). I think I was a little unclear. In the last paragraph, I was trying to make a philosophical point that the reason that the Shadows rules themselves don't specify any penalty for bringing OOH cards out of Shadows is that all Shadows cards have the "House X only" clause, but that the agenda goes ahead and restores something like the OOH gold penalty for Shadows cards.

So, if I got it right, if I play card out of shadows with the OOH affiliation and with the "house X only" restriction (have Shadow Agend) I pay 3 gold extra? The OOH penalty and 1 gold for "house X only" restriction. Right? Do not mention any other "discounts" like Aliance plot.

aqwarty said:

No. As far as I understand, with the agenda, you pay 1 gold extra for bringing a card with a house restriction (that does not match your house card) out of Shadows. The OOH gold penalty is not applied to bringing a card out of Shadows, ever (since you are not "playing" the card).

Saturnine said:

So, pretty much the reason Alliance does not reduce the gold penalty created by the Agenda is the same reason the OOH penalty is not applied to Shadow cards.

ktom said:

Which is why all house specific shadow cards in the game are "house X only". I see. Suddenly the Shadows agenda does make sense to me. Thanks.

Ratatoskr said: