ships in this game have different dials, agility, initiative, attack dices, abilities....

for this reason searching decide an upgrade's point cost to "please" or make work every ship is difficoult.

shurely a standardized price make the list building easier and intuitive but, to balance the game, this can have consequence, tipically:

-overpricing of the "naked" ship that give "problems" or is OP with that upgrade and consequentially overpricing every different build of that ship that doesn't use that upgrade.

-overpricing of the problematic upgrade for all the ships but the problematic one.

Adv. Sens is difficoult to price because it doesn't give only an initiative based advantage but also interact with a lot of abilites and actions in differents ways on every ship .

pricing it in base of initiative is reductive because it desn't take in consideration the ship's ability.

so again:

i hope the new app can have different cost for same upgrades on different pilots/ships.

i know is a more complex system than now but looking at where we are gonig i think is necessary.

now factions are 7 and soon there will be too many ships for a standardized pice system.

Don't know if it has been mentioned but if the starviper gets a tech slot you best believe 4x Optics Enforcers becomes a list.

8 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

And Ferrosphere is conditional, and mostly of use against torp/missile heavy alpha-strike lists.

Ferrosphere is Resistance only.

On 7/18/2020 at 1:09 PM, librarian101 said:

The combo of Guri and AS is the problem, but by putting the complete correction on AS you penalize other ships that AS is not a problem on. If you use the initiative value then all 5 are penalized equally with Guri when he is just the problem, but at the same time how do you penalize him, without that. Do you make special rules for individual ships? I hope not. Maybe a configuration upgrade added to the viper might work, pay extra like the b-Wing does to gain either AS or to gain the Sensor slot. Then you could use the Init value to change the cost for different levels, only yipers and especially Guri would pay the surcharge for the sensor slot

Methinks you didn't read the article. It addresses these very issues.

11 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

But above all I look at the tech upgrades and think “why...?” There just isn’t much of value there for Starvipers. The lack the red maneuvers for Pattern Analyzer to be useful, and indeed the limitation of only having the 3-Sloop without a pre boost/roll, and no K-Turn would make them extremely easy to predict their turn arounds. Primed Thrusters is interesting, but again... meh... Starvipers in general don’t need it and it doesn’t synergize well with their actions and dial. It would be better than Pattern Analyzer, though. And Ferrosphere is conditional, and mostly of use against torp/missile heavy alpha-strike lists. Paying 6pts just to make a Viper a little riskier to lock, isn’t worth it IMO.

So pretty much the only Tech I think would ever probably be seen, would be Advanced Optics for ensuring hits when blanking. And with the talent slot being unnecessary for her, that would make Guri just a 68pt low-budget and mediocre ace who barrel-rolls weird.

Agreed on Pattern Analyzer and T-Sync is pretty niche, but Primed Thrusters synergizes well with Guri, Dalan, and the Virago title. Optics is decent on any of the pilots. And Ferrosphere is in the wrong faction like Hyperspace Tracking Data which is why they weren't mentioned in the article.

8 hours ago, K13R4N said:

Don't know if it has been mentioned but if the starviper gets a tech slot you best believe 4x Optics Enforcers becomes a list.

But at I2, it sound fairly balanced.

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Ferrosphere is Resistance only.

Fair point. That would even further cut down potential options for the slot.

11 hours ago, K13R4N said:

Don't know if it has been mentioned but if the starviper gets a tech slot you best believe 4x Optics Enforcers becomes a list.

I don’t want to play Scum anymore, if that becomes the go-to BlackSun.

14 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You’re very likely to be wrong. Getting almost twice as many actions in the average game is massively more powerful than something like Passive Sensors.

It’s worth easily 6 points even on a generic G1-A, which is among the worse use-cases for it (only worse one I can think of is the gunboat, but mainly because it wants PS/FCS so bad it would be a poor choice at any cost).

How are you getting almost twice as many actions with Advanced Sensors?

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I don’t want to play Scum anymore, if that becomes the go-to BlackSun.

You could always fly Scum that isn't AdvO BS Enforcers.

The existence of a list that you don't fly has no impact on the lists you do.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

How are you getting almost twice as many actions with Advanced Sensors?

Presume a B-Wing pulls red moves every other turn. Without Advanced Sensors, 1 action every 2 turns. With Advanced Sensors, 1 action every turn. And if you aren't doing reds often, you'll pretty much never lose an action due to a bump or block or flying over an asteroid.

It could pretty easily be twice as many actions over the course of a game.

47 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Presume a B-Wing pulls red moves every other turn. Without Advanced Sensors, 1 action every 2 turns. With Advanced Sensors, 1 action every turn. And if you aren't doing reds often, you'll pretty much never lose an action due to a bump or block or flying over an asteroid.

It could pretty easily be twice as many actions over the course of a game.

So we’re assuming B-Wings taking red maneuvers every other turn, and that have no s-foil configuration, and aren’t using their Focus > Barrel Roll linked action.

Got it.

AS totally changes your flying too. That’s why RAC+Title is one of my favorite large base ships to fly. Makes bumping really beneficial cuz a shot is removed. Most times.

Same with Boba + Maul.

That’s why it’s cost holds for low I too.

Honestly, I could see the variable cost being related to whether the ship has a boost or barrel roll on its action bar.

2 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

So we’re assuming B-Wings taking red maneuvers every other turn, and that have no s-foil configuration, and aren’t using their Focus > Barrel Roll linked action.

Got it.

Yeah.

That's the point.

A lot of what we've been talking about in this thread is specifically generic B-Wings with Advanced Sensors. It'd be nice to bring back the 4 AdvS B list, which is a classic going back to 1e. Focus/Roll is only good in so far as it gets you somewhere better than your whites and blues could alone with a focus, but if you can obtain the same focus and better position with a red move, well, that's frequently going to be better. Advanced Sensors on a ship like a B-Wing really opens things up, grants you a lot of options and new play styles that you'd never even consider without it.

Even if we're changing over to named pilots, certainly for Ten Nunb, he'd *LOVE* to have Advanced Sensors instead of being forced to rely on Focus-Roll or Roll-Lock. Just AdvS a Lock and pull a red and keep pulling reds every turn.

"Twice as many actions" was brought up about mostly these B-Wings, but also to the G1-A and the Lambda, which would love to be able to leverage their red dials with their good actions. Or just use their actions before bumping, which is wicked easy to do with a shuttle.

I've flown enough Omicron Group Pilot to know how utterly bat$#** 3 point AdvS would be on it.

34 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Honestly, I could see the variable cost being related to whether the ship has a boost or barrel roll on its action bar.

Maybe, but why? Again, with variable pricing, it isn't just important that the powerful cases be expensive, but that the weak cases be cheap. That's why Maul doesn't have variable pricing. Likewise, AdvS probably shouldn't ever be super cheap anywhere.

If you're taking Supernatural Reflexes or Ensnare pricing, where the weak case is still expensive, and the strong case is "kill it with fire," then maybe.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah.

That's the point.

A lot of what we've been talking about in this thread is specifically generic B-Wings with Advanced Sensors. It'd be nice to bring back the 4 AdvS B list, which is a classic going back to 1e. Focus/Roll is only good in so far as it gets you somewhere better than your whites and blues could alone with a focus, but if you can obtain the same focus and better position with a red move, well, that's frequently going to be better. Advanced Sensors on a ship like a B-Wing really opens things up, grants you a lot of options and new play styles that you'd never even consider without it.

Even if we're changing over to named pilots, certainly for Ten Nunb, he'd *LOVE* to have Advanced Sensors instead of being forced to rely on Focus-Roll or Roll-Lock. Just AdvS a Lock and pull a red and keep pulling reds every turn.

"Twice as many actions" was brought up about mostly these B-Wings, but also to the G1-A and the Lambda, which would love to be able to leverage their red dials with their good actions. Or just use their actions before bumping, which is wicked easy to do with a shuttle.

I've flown enough Omicron Group Pilot to know how utterly bat$#** 3 point AdvS would be on it.

I asked where you were getting double actions from with Advanced Sensors. And I still don’t see it. In your example, a Focus > Roll linked is effectively two action, while an Adv Sensor Focus - Red Maneuver is one. Simply put, the very notion of “every other turn is a red maneuver” is, IMO, ridiculous and assumes that slow-rolling in and linked action, let alone double taps, aren’t something B-Wings do.

And for ships like the Lambda or G-1A, so what!? They are action starved to begin with, but I still don’t see them somehow getting double actions from Adv Sensors. Rather it just makes it more likely that they’ll have as many actions as generic snub fighters, given the same amount of turns being alive.

Also, I only suggested 3 or 4 pts for generic. 10 is too high for generic PS 1 or 2 ships, IMO, and I don’t feel like 6pts is particularly low enough for Blue Squadrons. So good on ya for your Dances with Space Cows, but I still think if anything Adv Sensors should be variable cost, and trading Sensors for Tech on the Starviper to be a rubbish idea.

4 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Also, I only suggested 3 or 4 pts for generic.

You want it to cost 3 points for a ship to be able to take actions when blocked or dialing a red maneuver and pre-dial reposition????????

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Maybe, but why? Again, with variable pricing, it isn't just important that the powerful cases be expensive, but that the weak cases be cheap. That's why Maul doesn't have variable pricing. Likewise, AdvS probably shouldn't ever be super cheap anywhere.

If you're taking Supernatural Reflexes or Ensnare pricing, where the weak case is still expensive, and the strong case is "kill it with fire," then maybe.

Mainly I was pointing out that the true issue with Adv Sens is not the single action before a red/bump or high initiative.

If Adv Sens said “...you may perform a focus or evade action,” it would be much cheaper. Not that it wouldn’t still be a great upgrade!

The high-end power is how you leverage that one action with your I6/I5 dial. Ie boost and barrel roll mainly.

I guess not a perfect fix, but just sayin...

Edit: BTW.... even 6 points feels like uncomfortably low point cost to me.

1 minute ago, JBFancourt said:

Mainly I was pointing out that the true issue with Adv Sens is not the single action before a red/bump or high initiative.

If Adv Sens said “...you may perform a focus or evade action,” it would be much cheaper. Not that it wouldn’t still be a great upgrade!

The high-end power is how you leverage that one action with your I6/I5 dial. Ie boost and barrel roll mainly.

I guess not a perfect fix, but just sayin...

To be sure, it'd probably be a better fix than straight init pricing.

7 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

And for ships like the Lambda or G-1A, so what!? They are action starved to begin with, but I still don’t see them somehow getting double actions from Adv Sensors. Rather it just makes it more likely that they’ll have as many actions as generic snub fighters, given the same amount of turns being alive.

I dunno what to tell you.

The fact that ships like the Lambda and G-1A are action starved is why AdvS is good. Not missing actions due to bumps and red moves is pretty huge.

Fact is, ships in this game--on average--get fewer than one action per turn. With something that can easily get block-trained, you can be entirely without actions in the midgame. Advanced Sensors give you a lot more actions than not.

7 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I asked where you were getting double actions from with Advanced Sensors. And I still don’t see it. In your example, a Focus > Roll linked is effectively two action, while an Adv Sensor Focus - Red Maneuver is one. Simply put, the very notion of “every other turn is a red maneuver” is, IMO, ridiculous and assumes that slow-rolling in and linked action, let alone double taps, aren’t something B-Wings do.

To some extent, particularly with lower-initiative generics, it's not really worth thinking of Focus > Roll as two actions. If you're not able to reactively reposition out of firing arcs, then what really matters is {1} final position {2} tokens (focus, lock, stress).

Advanced Sensors opens up a lot of options for where you can be with what tokens you have. It simply does. Focus or lock before bumping is great for slowrolling, too. Lock before a K-Turn or T-Roll can be stellar for double-taps.

If you're not interested in that particular style of B-Wing play, that's fine. But the upgrade should still be priced *for that style* even if you're not interested in using it.

25 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Fact is, ships in this game--on average--get fewer than one action per turn.

Does recovering a force charge count as an action?

9 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Does recovering a force charge count as an action?

Probably best to think of it as such.

But, while I'll own that the construction--"ships on average"--might be a bit limited in scope, looping around to force seems mostly like a non-sequitur to me.

13 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

So we’re assuming B-Wings taking red maneuvers every other turn, and that have no s-foil configuration, and aren’t using their Focus > Barrel Roll linked action.

If they have access to cheap Adv Sensors, they likely won't be taking S-Foils, as AdSens is far too good. Ten Numb would have field day with it, always having lock focus even if he did a turnaround maneuver.

As @theBitterFig has belabored, never losing actions is good. Lambda's are good already, giving them their action every turn regardless of whether they bump or do a hard turn would make them stronger. That applies to the other 3 hard stop ships with a sensor, the StarFortess, the U-Wing, and the Upsilon, as well. I know most folks don't believe in IGs, but I've flown them to good success, and they would be titans with it. We definitely don't need unblockable TIE Phantoms or Inquisitors running about for cheap, and they exist at I3. I1 and I4 Defenders are both good and bad with AdSens. You turn off Full Throttle, but if you were getting blocked, you wouldn't get it the evade anyway. AdSens-ing a boost, then doing a 4K is super good.

24 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But, while I'll own that the construction--"ships on average"--might be a bit limited in scope, looping around to force seems mostly like a non-sequitur to me.

If I was going to actually take a crack at figuring out roughly how many actions ships in good squads get, I didn't want to get hit later with "FOrcE iNSt a ActIoN".

I bring it up because, if you're talking about a random YASB squad, or any given random naked pilot, sure it might average less than 1 action per round.

But if you're talking about actually good lists? I'd be surprised to find that out. Especially if you count as "actions" things like force, networked calc, ability dice mods, etc.

For example, take a typical rebel build these days- Luke/ten/braylenn/jake. That list gets like...10-12 equivalent actions per round? Any republic squad sort of starts off at 2 actions per ship and goes up from there with tweaking. I'm not sure what a good imperial squad is, tbh, but duchess (with 5bro), and Vader are action machines. Boba with maul is likewise taking actions like mad. Scyk-based squads will get less than 1 on average, though the fang's linked focus might balance that out. Silencers are obviously taking more than 1 per round. Does the SF rotate count? I'd argue definitely if it's the passive concussion guys who wait to choose their arc until activation. Obviously 5A is taking 10+ equivalent actions per round. DRKs might not be ubiquitous, but that's extra actions. As is networked calc, and the calc->roll. I'd bet a CIS swarm gets easily 2+ actions per ship per round.

So, I'd push back on the idea that most (flown) squads get less than 1 action per ships per round. If anything, getting more than 1 action per round is a discriminator for what you should listbuild with versus not.

12 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I bring it up because, if you're talking about a random YASB squad, or any given random naked pilot, sure it might average less than 1 action per round.

But if you're talking about actually good lists? I'd be surprised to find that out. Especially if you count as "actions" things like force, networked calc, ability dice mods, etc.

This is kinda the difference between 8 point Advanced Sensors, and 3 points.

At 8 points I don't think Advanced Sensors B-Wings are any *good* but at least they're *legal* at four-per-list. 4B with AdvS I don't think is going to be good if we're talking generics. I think it'd be a fun to play list, maybe OK for casual night.

At 3 points, they might be good, and shuttles for example get very good. I don't necessarily think I want that.

It's kind of a fine razor's edge to walk. I'd like a lot of the bad stuff in this game to be a bit less bad, but not necessarily all the way to good. Maybe rather I think the goal is for everything to be Casual-Night-Good, even if not everything is Large-Tournament-Good. I just don't think it'll be possible to dial-in everything to that level of precise balance, and I'm fine with some inefficiencies. I just want those inefficiencies to be a bit smaller in the weaker cases.

To that end, Advanced Sensors is in a *very* awkward space. It's too expensive to be Casual-Night-Good for most ships, at the same time as it's too cheap or maybe just too toxic for some of the most extreme Tournament cases.

//

But more broadly, yeah, the concept of an "average ship" is kinda jacked.

40 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But more broadly, yeah, the concept of an "average ship" is kinda jacked.

Yeah from the beginning I was thinking that b-wings would dig a version of AS- call it "Tactical Sensors".

Before you activate, you may perform 1 focus or calc action from your action bar, then spend 1 charge.

while your charge is spent, you cannot perform actions.

All too easy, but only in hindsight.

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Before you activate, you may perform 1 focus or calc action from your action bar, then spend 1 charge.

while your charge is spent, you cannot perform actions.

All too easy, but only in hindsight.

Not just hindsight. Moving forward, FFG could make that sensor, and price it more effectively across all initiatives as it doesn't allow reposition or linked actions for higher init pilots. Make it cost 6-7 points, then up AdSens by 4 points.

3 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Not just hindsight. Moving forward, FFG could make that sensor, and price it more effectively across all initiatives as it doesn't allow reposition or linked actions for higher init pilots. Make it cost 6-7 points, then up AdSens by 4 points.

.....14 points adv sensors seems a little too much.

i would never take it with a lambda or an inquisitor or a punisher.

it will become useless for the imperial faction

nor in a casual nor in a competitive game.

42 minutes ago, Manolox said:

.....14 points adv sensors seems a little too much.

i would never take it with a lambda or an inquisitor or a punisher.

But with the Tactical Sensor at 6-7, you really wouldn't need to. Lambda it would be great. Inqs would still get focus and force. Not as good as evade + force, but still dang good. Cheaper than Supernatural on them, and people think that is good. Redline would be fine with it, since it would still give him focus + lock. Deathrain could be fine with it if he takes a lock action when he drops a bomb because he'd still end with focus + lock. Cutlasses weren't taking it anyway. They're more likely to take Passive Sensors than either AdSens or the hypothetical Tactical Sensor.

AdSens was dead in the faction anyway aside from Rexlar.

42 minutes ago, Manolox said:

it will become useless for the imperial faction, nor in a casual nor in a competitive game.

That was the point. Price out of existence like Supernatural. Guri might still take it.

7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Price out of existence like Supernatural.

As long as a card will never, ever see use as-is, I really don't see the harm in a hard errata.

Just my opinion but I typically prefer proper fixes to new paywalled fix cards.