3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Pre-movement mobility some how avoided that treatment and now the cards are justifiably stuck requiring ban level costs at high init.

If those three cards did get errataed to the System phase (and the payload rule was clarified so that all payloads must be dropped before any movement), would you approve of non-ban-level prices?

Maybe something like:

SNR: 8/8/8/10/12/16/20

Precog: 4/4/4/5/6/8/10

AS: ~7

Or maybe that's still a bit too cheap for the worst offenders. Especially curious for your opinion since you're just about the strongest representative for the "nerf aces" camp.

10 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

if sensor was removed to Virago title and that was scaled, it would be at least a slight improvement

100% like.

Tag another 5 points onto the current 10 at I5 and you're taxing AdvSns.Guri in the right direction.

Any other slot on the ship like Tech would be a nice consolation for non titles.

Maybe make the title swap the tech for sensor or something.

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

100% like.

Tag another 5 points onto the current 10 at I5 and you're taxing AdvSns.Guri in the right direction.

Any other slot on the ship like Tech would be a nice consolation for non titles.

Maybe make the title swap the tech for sensor or something.

Again, it would work but only in the short term. Its only a matter of time before some other AS abuser comes along and pre-maneuver-repositions its way to NPE as well, and in the meantime AS would still be prohibitively expensive for Lambdas, B-Wings, and most G1-As other than 4-LOM.

As long as we're actually doing a hard errata I'd rather just fix the offending card, which in this case is definitely Advanced Sensors. Make it less good for aces, and then you can cheapen it for the rest (by just a little)

23 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If those three cards did get errataed to the System phase (and the payload rule was clarified so that all payloads must be dropped before any movement), would you approve of non-ban-level prices?

Not sure? SNR would be less probably. Precog and Adv Sensors might already be correct for system phase cost?

Lateral movement or boosts or token/coordinate actions in system phase are still hugely valuable so I could for sure see them all being double digit+ regardless. They would become “Phantom Upgrades” and still trigger multiple actions in SNRs or Redlines case along with invalidating blocking...

So yea all I can say is id have them all pegged at double digit prices for i5 and i6 still.

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Not sure?

I guess time may tell. Over enough time, sufficient pressure on the devs might eventually bring this about.

Another interesting observation; if AS were removed to the System phase, would it increase the comparative value of Virago's red boost? Not great that it (kinda sorta) ties her into blues before dials are set, but since most effective Guris take it already, dropping off AS for something like FCS becomes more of an option I suppose...

23 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I guess time may tell. Over enough time, sufficient pressure on the devs might eventually bring this about.

Another interesting observation; if AS were removed to the System phase, would it increase the comparative value of Virago's red boost? Not great that it (kinda sorta) ties her into blues before dials are set, but since most effective Guris take it already, dropping of AS for something like FCS becomes more of an option I suppose...

These mechanics clearly have some amount of appeal to the playerbase. Players like feeling like a ninja and not having to be locked in to their movement decisions.

My main thing with these cards is they get double standard treatment because players like it when aces do powerful movement related things. System phase would keep alot of that experience and inject a small amount of guess work back in.

If the devs told everyone bombs were all moving back to actions and phantoms decloak was moving back to OG 1.0 activation people would be up in arms for the most part and expect “ban” level pricing.

Give them BB8 poe for single digits or adv sensor guri for 10 pts or precog vader for 13 and you will hear a laundry list of reasons why its cool and not a big deal or even overpriced.

Im not necessarily anti-ace either, they are fun to play when they take damage and live or die by their dial. Soontir is fun. Guri to.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im not necessarily anti-ace either, they are fun to play when they take damage and live or die by their dial.

To be clear I'm 100% on board here. Holo/Vonreg are my favorite aces to play against. I've beat them several times with 5-ship Rebels.

The pro-SNR etc crowd wants to prove that this can still be the case if sufficient arcs can be brought to bear (point-for-point) and ace mods aren't reliable enough. I was in this camp for a long time. I'm less convinced now that we've seen the drop in generic costs and high-maneuverability force-aces still reign supreme.

Moving these 3 cards only to the system phase would make for a lot more player-interaction, telegraphs ace intentions a little bit to improve blocking options, and potentially allows them to be cheapened (at least a bit) to become viable on non-ace chassis.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

BB8 poe for single digits

I really do think the only-2-charges and blue-maneuver requirement (that creates a sort of nonbo with Poe's ability) really do keep this balanced. He hasn't been that successful in the wild, though it could have as much to do with his wingmen or his own pricing as his upgrades. Jury's still out.

11 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

now, if sensor was removed to Virago title and that was scaled, it would be at least a slight improvement, if only a short-term one.

I'm not certain how much that accomplishes, aside from getting rid of lighter Guri builds and screwing any other Viper pilot out of taking a sensor. Guri would still take AdSens and the title at a higher price.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I really do think the only-2-charges and blue-maneuver requirement (that creates a sort of nonbo with Poe's ability) really do keep this balanced. He hasn't been that successful in the wild, though it could have as much to do with his wingmen or his own pricing as his upgrades. Jury's still out.

Agreed. If Guri could only AdSens twice per game, and only on blue maneuvers, she wouldn't be worth complaining about. Here's a not-hot take, BB-8 should cost the same as BB Astromechs.

1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

BB-8 should cost the same as BB Astromechs.

Thought the same of R2-D2 and R5-D8 as well. It's okay for faction-locked things to be strictly better (hello old Heroic discussion again), especially when the worst abusers (Jedi) are locked outside.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Thought the same of R2-D2 and R5-D8 as well. It's okay for faction-locked things to be strictly better (hello old Heroic discussion again), especially when the worst abusers (Jedi) are locked outside.

I thought the same about R2-D2, as well. Regen isn't oppressive in the Rebel faction. If E-Wings miraculously git gud, we can always hike him back up. R5-D8 isn't even on my radar, so dropping to the generic price is likely fine.

21 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

@gennataos will definitely disagree regarding BBs; at 1 point they’re a steal on generic T-70s.

You rang?

I’ll straight **** up a whole lot of people with Poe and 3 BB rookies.

8 hours ago, gennataos said:

I’ll straight **** up a whole lot of people with Poe and 3 BB rookies.

On 7/15/2020 at 11:18 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

You’ve now guaranteed Gina, Ric, and Corran Will never take it, and probably not Braylen, Ten, Kagi, Dalan, Xizor, Gavin, Vynder, etc. at those Kinds of prices.

Definitely doesn’t fix the problem.

now, if sensor was removed to Virago title and that was scaled, it would be at least a slight improvement, if only a short-term one.

You do realize I’m saying that high of a cost is ridiculous and I’m not actually in favor of a cost that high, right?

The way to do a sliding scale cost on Advanced Sensors, is to make it more along the lines of Precognitive Reflexes (a.k.a. Supernatural Reflexes Lite).

“ Point cost 3,3,3,4,7,10,13 when initiative is 0,1,2,3,4,5,6 “

Now, making it exactly that cost scale probably isn’t the right way to do it... But I don’t think B-Wings should be paying 10pts for the upgrade.

And I’m generally in favor of Starvipers keeping the Sensor slot. v1’s restriction to just the Virago, meant that you only ever saw the Virago unless someone was spamming them on a lark.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

You do realize I’m saying that high of a cost is ridiculous and I’m not actually in favor of a cost that high, right?

The way to do a sliding scale cost on Advanced Sensors, is to make it more along the lines of Precognitive Reflexes (a.k.a. Supernatural Reflexes Lite).

“ Point cost 3,3,3,4,7,10,13 when initiative is 0,1,2,3,4,5,6 “

Now, making it exactly that cost scale probably isn’t the right way to do it... But I don’t think B-Wings should be paying 10pts for the upgrade.

And I’m generally in favor of Starvipers keeping the Sensor slot. v1’s restriction to just the Virago, meant that you only ever saw the Virago unless someone was spamming them on a lark.

Upsilons and Lambdas are salivating

13 minutes ago, Deffly said:

Upsilons and Lambdas are salivating

Lambdas were the original ship that Adv Sensors was packaged with.

adv.sens./title lambda is super good.... very efficient action economy.... one of my preferred ships

at this point i really hope for a initiative based cost

Advanced sensors is not the problem Guri is. Why penalize other ships to solve the problem with one ship. If it is so good why arent other ships using it. The combination of guris dial, and banked BR create the problem. Do we see the problem on other vipers? We dont seem to see it on Corran whose dial is maybe not quite as good as Guri because of the blues. The same thing happened when they did the R2/R2D2 fix to cure the problem with the Delta 7, do you see R2s on X-wings very often anymore. the problems was with the basic ship, not every ship.

2 hours ago, librarian101 said:

We dont seem to see it on Corran whose dial is maybe not quite as good as Guri because of the blues.

Corran's dial is arguably better than Guri's, and it definitely is with the R4 Astromech for 2 points. Corran isn't seen because the E-Wing chassis has it's own problems.

2 hours ago, librarian101 said:

Advanced sensors is not the problem Guri is.

Do you mean Guri is problem without advanced sensors? If so, I disagree. Advanced Sensors isn't the problem. Guri isn't the problem. Advanced Sensors plus Guri is the problem.

12 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

“ Point cost 3,3,3,4,7,10,13 when initiative is 0,1,2,3,4,5,6 “

Now, making it exactly that cost scale probably isn’t the right way to do it... But I don’t think B-Wings should be paying 10pts for the upgrade.

10 points is too much, but it shouldn't drop below 6 points for any initiative.

continuing to stake out an increasingly controversial fort atop hill "keep advanced sensors bad on all platforms"

The combo of Guri and AS is the problem, but by putting the complete correction on AS you penalize other ships that AS is not a problem on. If you use the initiative value then all 5 are penalized equally with Guri when he is just the problem, but at the same time how do you penalize him, without that. Do you make special rules for individual ships? I hope not. Maybe a configuration upgrade added to the viper might work, pay extra like the b-Wing does to gain either AS or to gain the Sensor slot. Then you could use the Init value to change the cost for different levels, only yipers and especially Guri would pay the surcharge for the sensor slot

21 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

The combo of Guri and AS is the problem, but by putting the complete correction on AS you penalize other ships that AS is not a problem on. If you use the initiative value then all 5 are penalized equally with Guri when he is just the problem, but at the same time how do you penalize him, without that. Do you make special rules for individual ships? I hope not. Maybe a configuration upgrade added to the viper might work, pay extra like the b-Wing does to gain either AS or to gain the Sensor slot. Then you could use the Init value to change the cost for different levels, only yipers and especially Guri would pay the surcharge for the sensor slot

Unless they changed it in this thread and I missed it, the article suggests switching out the sensor slot on all of the Starvipers for a tech slot which removes them from the required considerations for pricing AS.

Yes it does as a possible solution

3 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

it shouldn't drop below 6 points for any initiative.

Come on man, 4-Lom with a 3 point AS wouldn't be THAT broken...

12 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

10 points is too much, but it shouldn't drop below 6 points for any initiative.

I don’t know... I don’t think it should be more expensive than 3 or 4 pts on a generic B-Wing or Lambda, or even a PS 2 Starviper.

And still compared to other legitimate NPE combos/ships, I don’t believe Guri + Adv Sensors is as remotely bad as Sun Fac initially was, or even how Supernatural Reflexes initially was. The fact Guri and Advanced Sensors have gone largely untouched and uncomplained about all of 1st edition, and up until now in 2nd edition, leads me scratching my head.

But above all I look at the tech upgrades and think “why...?” There just isn’t much of value there for Starvipers. The lack the red maneuvers for Pattern Analyzer to be useful, and indeed the limitation of only having the 3-Sloop without a pre boost/roll, and no K-Turn would make them extremely easy to predict their turn arounds. Primed Thrusters is interesting, but again... meh... Starvipers in general don’t need it and it doesn’t synergize well with their actions and dial. It would be better than Pattern Analyzer, though. And Ferrosphere is conditional, and mostly of use against torp/missile heavy alpha-strike lists. Paying 6pts just to make a Viper a little riskier to lock, isn’t worth it IMO.

So pretty much the only Tech I think would ever probably be seen, would be Advanced Optics for ensuring hits when blanking. And with the talent slot being unnecessary for her, that would make Guri just a 68pt low-budget and mediocre ace who barrel-rolls weird.

13 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I don’t know... I don’t think it should be more expensive than 3 or 4 pts on a generic B-Wing or Lambda, or even a PS 2 Starviper.

You’re very likely to be wrong. Getting almost twice as many actions in the average game is massively more powerful than something like Passive Sensors.

It’s worth easily 6 points even on a generic G1-A, which is among the worse use-cases for it (only worse one I can think of is the gunboat, but mainly because it wants PS/FCS so bad it would be a poor choice at any cost).