1 hour ago, svelok said:

I see this weird persecution complex from scum players a lot. Where does it come from?

in the update that nerfed Boba/Palob/Tugboats, Redline/Whisper/Soontir went from 185 to 206 (+21)
in the update that nerfed Drea scruggs, Wedge/Braylen/Cassian/Ten went from 200 to 223 (+23)

I think some of it might be that there aren't as many near-equivalent replacements in Scum. Like, Cassian could easily be replaced by a generic U-Wing and be worse, but still fine. Swapping out Palob for a generic HWK? Yikes that's bad.

A lot of scum is build around not just good chassis, but one specific pilot, that winds up on a particular jank list. Remove that specific dirty trick, and the whole thing falls apart.

However, M3-A Scyks are one of the best ships in the game right now, Boba is probably the best "fat" ship out there, Fangs are solid, and even Jumpmasters are kinda back. Scum has a lot of good stuff going on for it, and is certainly miles ahead of Rebels or Empire in Hyperspace.

Now, these aren't necessarily the *kinds* of lists scum players want to fly. I think a lot of folks want that "Wretched Hive" style of four dirty tricks ships, get a big toolbox, and have it be effective. But like Guri, a lot of people hate flying against this kinda stuff, find it to be pretty BS. So FFG keeps this style of list pretty mediocre.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I am uncertain on this. It certainly would make them more predictable, but also perhaps make them the best blockers in the game. Aileron-ing your I1 Reaper or a pair of I1 Strikers in the way of an I1 droid swarm denying their action then you s-loop behind them or just blast past them sounds pretty decent.

That's like, the one fringe case where it's better.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I know that I've gotten a lot of value out of a systems phase boost from Deathrain, blocking all sorts of low initiative ships.

Because you get to choose when you do that. Not only is the timing optional, but the action choice is optional too. You can choose to boost if it's the best thing to do, or you can choose to focus. So there's value in his ability even if the match up means you'll never want to do a boost block.

Now imagine that you've never really played Strikers before. You put together a list using Pure Sabacc and Countdown.

And now, every single turn, you have to figure out how to get around the board when you have to do a boost before everyone else moves, then execute the maneuver on your dial after they've all moved and you have to do it in such a way that your ship is in a better position than what you think they're trying to do. And you have to do it twice. You have to also make sure your two ships don't crash into each other.

The one time you're against someone with an I1 swarm doesn't make it worth all the headaches you'll get trying to fly around a mix of I2s, 3s and 5s.

This isn't a case of nerfing players who are already good with Strikers, it's an issue of whether anyone would bother trying to get to that stage with them again.

12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Now, I can see moving the force recharge timing to, say, fully executing a maneuver. More precisely, the Pattern Analyzer timing of after fully executing before the "check pilot stress" step (plus rules change vis a vis overlapping obstacles). I think it'd be a lot less awkward than regaining force based on focus actions, but still leaves in consequences for dialing in bad moves or getting blocked.

Yeah, this is pretty much the only Force nerf I think will ever work.

Also seems fairest. Vulnerablity to blocking is the closest thing to a universal weakness we've got.

I'd also consider limiting Force token spend to once per dice roll. I think that helps control some of the worse excesses, but also gives you a reason to take cards like Brilliant Evasion. It doesn't change the majority of cases by itself, though, usually one token spend is all you need anyway.

Together with making regen only after fully executing a maneuver, though, and I think you bring Force users down an appropriate amount without making them pointless.

Plus, it's a super easy (and reversible!) fix. It's literally just a couple of lines added to or changed in the Rules Reference, which has been established from the get go to be a living document where such changes are to be expected.

Y'know, I'm genuinely thinking of house ruling this next time I play....

3 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I'd also consider limiting Force token spend to once per dice roll. I think that helps control some of the worse excesses, but also gives you a reason to take cards like Brilliant Evasion. It doesn't change the majority of cases by itself, though, usually one token spend is all you need anyway.

This. Once per defense/offense roll seems very reasonable to me. If they want to rein in force, this seems to me one of the best ways.

I see this thread has gone down some other paths since it's start but I wanted to add that I like the idea of swapping sensors for tech on the Starviper. Doesn't seem to hurt the platform and FFG being able to play with the price of AS without having to respect Guri seems promising at a glance.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Usable, yes. Worth 30% of a list? Most of the time, no. Especially when facing the two factions that largely don't need/use focus or evade tokens. Unless you meant a Crow-less Palob which I have no experience with, so I cannot truly comment.

I totally agree that the force matchups can feel bad (sorta), but obi and naboo fighters still hate him. And then there's imperial force aces, but whisper and soontir super hate him, and quiz/Vader still prefer taking green tokens to not.

And then there's CIS. Well, just dodge that matchup. E. Z.

8 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

And then there's CIS. Well, just dodge that matchup. E. Z.

It's just that Palob costs more than Wedge, Soontir, CLT Obi, or Whisper if he takes the Crow title. I'll grant that Whisper typically takes more upgrades and Obi will slighty outprice Palob if he takes an R2, but Wedge and Soontir are often bare shirt. Palob is strong, but is he that strong?

33 minutes ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

I see this thread has gone down some other paths since it's start but I wanted to add that I like the idea of swapping sensors for tech on the Starviper. Doesn't seem to hurt the platform and FFG being able to play with the price of AS without having to respect Guri seems promising at a glance.

Man, feel free to talk about StarViper's or Guri to your hearts content. I love'm.

14 hours ago, gadwag said:

I'm with @ClassicalMoser : all pre-move repositioning should occur in the systems phase (yes, even adaptive ailerons).

Not so fast there; I wasn't calling it for BB astro, Sabine, or AA. I don't think those are abusive and they can much more easily be balanced around since they're so limited in scope and application.

It's the unlimited upgrades that are the problems. SNR, Precog, and AS work on too many things and too many times, so the ones that get obscene use cases out of them hurt the upgrade for the rest and much more easily create NPEs. Sabine's never really done that because of I3. AA is quite limited and usually predictable enough, and Duchess can be priced better. BBs are Resistance-only and limited to two uses in the entire game, so also aren't much of a problem.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

AdvS B-Wings have been clean, wholesome fun. Even on a shuttle, it's fine. Like, I understand team guri npe, but without that absurd mobility plus Init 5 plus her ability to get a second full action, AdvS is just NBD--no bid deal.

To add to this; most of us would be happy just using it like Pattern Analyzer; we just want a way to get that coordinate while our shuttle is forced to pull a stop or turn every other move. Same goes for the generic B-Wings; they're tied to their reds and die too fast without mods.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

This is just a straight buff to Vader.

Good, finally an excuse to price him at 100 points!

Mostly kidding, I see the issue there. Still seems more points-fixable than the current situation though.

Edit: Meant to address this too:

Quote

This would hurt Adv Sensors beyond the reposition. If the stated goal is to make Adv Sensors more like its apparent intention and be a tool to get actions pre red maneuver, then using Adv Sensors in the Systems phase is telegraphing to your opponent that you're doing a red maneuver. This allows them to react appropriately.

I totally agree, and I really don't mind this. Honestly I feel it would be far better for the game to have a much cheaper Advanced Sensors with much better options to counterplay it. It means more player engagement and interaction, more guessing games, more difficult decisions on both sides, and crucially, more options in list-building to accommodate for the downsides presented.

23 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess part of what I mean is that I guess I don't mind that it's overpriced. Are massed missile opening rounds something we really want? If not, then let's just be fine with it being overpriced for Standard.

Or another way to think about it: it ought to be priced on the basis of a list. How many points for a List to ignore the Lock requirements? Well, Passive Sensors is 3 points per ship. TSync isn't that far off, in that sense.

The fact that TSync has infinite scaling is... possibly bad design. Like, maybe it should have been a 2-charge or 3-charge (recurs all uses each turn), to keep it from getting out of hand in the extreme cases, so that it could be priced more fairly.

Anyhow, I don't even necessarily think E-Wings are that bad. Corran has seen some success (with a broken ID Han, but still), although he's probably a bit to expensive. Generics offer something kind of unique with their opening-round double-mods. I've flown some 3x Torpedo Knaves with R3, and they were OK. Not top tier, but like, a list you can have a good simple time playing.

Linked Lock is better than no linked action, even if it isn't nearly as good as the more common linked Focus.

Could they use a perk? Yeah, probably. I'd love to see them get cheaper astromechs (a two point reduction?), although there isn't really a way to accomplish that with current rules. Mostly, I think it'd be great fun and flavor. Double Locks? Better turns? Invest more points for Regen? All those would kinda bring their own playstyle.

That sort of targeted "This ship receives a X point reduction to Y upgrade type" would be a potentially fun balance lever. Not every ship, probably not most ships, but it'd be another dial that could be turned. A fun example would be G-1A with crew--Scum has so many neat crew, and a crew-carrier ship which is utter trash, but one FFG is hesitant to buff below 41 points...

I like the E-wing as is, it could come down a couple of points and could use another pilot or 2. What might be good also are a couple of R7 E-Wing only droids. 1 that might allow a TL at range 1 and 1 that would allow a linked action to a focus when Boosting or BR.

5 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

What might be good also are a couple of R7 E-Wing only droids.

There might be a way to restrict this effectively without specifically marking it as "E-Wing Only" to leave design space for future ships.

The simple way; make it play with red lock actions!

I feel like there could be a lot of fun had with something in that space.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Frankly she's a blast to fly, but so expensive that I have trouble getting her in a list with enough dice to actually win a game.

This is why you don't see her everywhere. In a vacuum a fully loaded Guri, SR Kylo or SR Anakin are the best ships you can put on the table. But whats the rest of your list then? For me personally Fenn Rau is the first ship that can do so much work that a 2 ship list with a fully loaded Guri functions.

If Guri would have been so problematic you would see her everywhere. But she gives you a certain feeling flying her you really have to like. Whats more important: Flying her for the first time is really depressing because you have no idea what the right moves are and what you should do and what you shouldn't do. I did so many wrong moves in my first two games and got annihilated so I put her back into the shelf. If you want to fly her decent, you really have to keep practicing.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

think a lot of people get into weird mindsets about NPEs. They see an Adv Sensors ship dodge their maneuver and get annoyed because it feels like even a correct prediction goes unrewarded. But how often do people actually look to the benefit of that action? How many times do people simply step back and think, okay you've made my dial choice irrelevant but you're not actually turning that into scoring points by killing my ships. Yes, obviously that's what happens with Guri - that's the problem and the point of this post. But if people just stay calm and allow their opponent to dodge all their arcs and blocks because they've realised that ship is now pointing at only one ship with no dice mods while costing half the list, I think there'd be a lot fewer complaints.

I disagree with that. I played a lot of games were my opponent had only one chance to put lots of damage into Guri. The crucial turn for Guri is always the first engagement where you eventually don't end up in range 1 of something. If you put her in a bad position she will take damage what you don't want because you want her at full health while she's dancing around in the knife fight. So I'm totally fine if she can't shoot anything when I'm able to do meaningful damage the upcoming rounds. And this is why I think it can create a NPE against certain list archetypes because they only get one chance to do meaningful damage. Like I mentioned above playing against 3 Silencers; once Guri is in the middle of the Silencers there is nearly nothing my opponent could have done to do 7 damage (!!!) to her.

If you want you can watch this game I played recently. I really struggled with my opening engagement and Guri took some unnecessary damage early on. But once she was in the knife fight, my opponent couldn't do much, even with 5 ships:

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

It's just that Palob costs more than Wedge, Soontir, CLT Obi, or Whisper if he takes the Crow title. I'll grant that Whisper typically takes more upgrades and Obi will slighty outprice Palob if he takes an R2, but Wedge and Soontir are often bare shirt. Palob is strong, but is he that strong?

It's sort of all about what the rest of the list does. There are plenty of situations where I'd rather have Palob than CLT obi or wedge. For example, if the rest of my list is based around intiative killing something, stealing its valuable defensive mods makes it that much more consistent. Or if I'm bringing along some more fragile aces, they can play a bit riskier if the 1 ship they can't arc dodge is much less likely to roll all hits.

Soontir can go over 58 points and still be a bargain, so I'll put this one into "everything looks overpriced when compared to the most aggressively undercosted stuff in the game".

2 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

"everything looks overpriced when compared to the most aggressively undercosted stuff in the game".

Exactly.

So tired of seeing "It's not overpriced because [insert meta staple] is just objectively better!"

Yes it's objectively better.

That doesn't mean it's right.

44 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

So tired of seeing "It's not overpriced because [insert meta staple] is just objectively better!"

Yes it's objectively better.

That doesn't mean it's right.

Fair point, but Palob naked costs 40 points. Is a 2 die I3 klepto-turret worth an X-wing? I'm not entirely certain he is. I may be wrong, but I'm still gonna say Palob or, at very least, the Crow title is over priced. Not by much, mind you. Just a little.

7 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

This. Once per defense/offense roll seems very reasonable to me. If they want to rein in force, this seems to me one of the best ways.

best because it does nothing most of the time?

Wow. Things move quick around here.

Force? Palob?

....

I really don't have a problem with Adv. Sensors or Guri by themselves.

Sensor slot is a cool idea that grants extra toys to specifically advanced ships and push the theme of the game.

Vipers, B-Wings, Defenders, etc.

It's obvious that Guri is the best platform for AdvSnsrs.

Thats fine as an isolated point.

But when you consider how restricted every other sensor ship becomes when an upgrade has to be costed against it's greatest offender, then certain things like AdvSnsrs simply disappear from the creative card pool for many other ships.

Limitations (ie. Hyperspace format), are cool.

So also is having many viable options for toolbox ships.

I hope Guri gets a creative adjustment soon, as well as many other ships.

13 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

This would totally kill the Reaper and all Strikers except Duchess.

Pre-movement repositioning is only a problem when its optional.

Adaptive Ailerons represent a barrier to entry for all other Strikers - figuring out how to use them is a skill that must be learned. Yes, it can be advantageous once figured out, but not game breakingly so.

Putting AA into the System phase makes an already difficult maneuver planning challenge even more difficult. No one would bother with it if you had to account for the fact that someone could reposition to block based on the direction of the AA manuever. It would be work that would never be worth the benefit.

Moving ailerons to the systems phase actually hurts duchess a lot more than the other strikers, because she can no longer user her ability at i5. Moving decloaks to the system phase hasn't hurt phantoms much, so I don't see why the same can't be done for AA

9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Not so fast there; I wasn't calling it for BB astro, Sabine, or AA. I don't think those are abusive and they can much more easily be balanced around since they're so limited in scope and application.

It's the unlimited upgrades that are the problems. SNR, Precog, and AS work on too many things and too many times, so the ones that get obscene use cases out of them hurt the upgrade for the rest and much more easily create NPEs. Sabine's never really done that because of I3. AA is quite limited and usually predictable enough, and Duchess can be priced better. BBs are Resistance-only and limited to two uses in the entire game, so also aren't much of a problem.

Just because sabine, BB8 and other limited pre-move repositions aren't NPEs doesn't mean they need to be saved - I suggested a blanket rule because often it's upgrades of this type that cause NPEs, and as long as pre-move repositioning exists there's a possibility for a new NPE to pop up. Apart from duchess, I'd say all the pre-move repositions can be largely grouped as NPE (advsensors guri, supernatural, precog) or bad/unplayable (BB8, sabine, maybe also precog).

Putting all pre-move repositioning in the system phase is a big call, and as I've said, it's not something FFG will do because that's not what they want in the game. And that's fine. I actually think the best argument against moving pre-move repositions to the systems phase is that the game then might start to look like it actually has two movement phases, and that's a little weird.

4 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Wow. Things move quick around here.

Force? Palob?

....

I really don't have a problem with Adv. Sensors or Guri by themselves.

Sensor slot is a cool idea that grants extra toys to specifically advanced ships and push the theme of the game.

Vipers, B-Wings, Defenders, etc.

It's obvious that Guri is the best platform for AdvSnsrs.

Thats fine as an isolated point.

But when you consider how restricted every other sensor ship becomes when an upgrade has to be costed against it's greatest offender, then certain things like AdvSnsrs simply disappear from the creative card pool for many other ships.

Limitations (ie. Hyperspace format), are cool.

So also is having many viable options for toolbox ships.

I hope Guri gets a creative adjustment soon, as well as many other ships.

But Sensors don’t have to be priced in regards to the best pilot and platform... Adv Sensors comes with some weighty downfalls to it, but generally speaking it is quite expensive for something like generic B-Wings, Vipers, etc.

Like other re-position prior to maneuver upgrades, if anything should be done to Adv Sensors it would be to scale the cost. Something like a Blue B-Wing could do with a much reduced cost, while the pricetag for higher Pilot Skills could see a marginal increase. I wouldn’t go too high however, because Adv Sensors do kill your ability to perform any extra actions, period. Including Linked, Free Actions, or what have you. 24pts for PS 5 for example, would be ludicrously high.

3 hours ago, gadwag said:

I suggested a blanket rule because often it's upgrades of this type that cause NPEs, and as long as pre-move repositioning exists there's a possibility for a new NPE to pop up.

That’s unworkable in the real world though. Maybe it would be better if they designed it that way from the start but it’s not a rules issue; it’s a wording issue.

You can’t fix it with a rule change, it requires a full on errata, which the devs are very wary of. They’re not about to errata every reaper and striker in the game, two versions of Sabine, young Anakin, and two astromechs without good reason.

Convincing them to errata five words on three cards might be workable.

3 hours ago, gadwag said:

I'd say all the pre-move repositions can be largely grouped as NPE (advsensors guri, supernatural, precog) or bad/unplayable (BB8, sabine, maybe also precog).

You’ll get quite a bit of disagreement there. I don’t think I’ve heard any serious complaints about little Ani, Sabacc, or Countdown. Duchess is probably just too cheap (like many highly-mobile I5s can be). Sabine was genuinely the best rebel pilot in wave 1 before she got excessively nuked. She’s starting to come into her own again. And @gennataos will definitely disagree regarding BBs; at 1 point they’re a steal on generic T-70s. Precog is just weird, basically an unwelcome guest who came to fill someone else’s job but we know they were just replaced for political reasons.

3 hours ago, gadwag said:

Putting all pre-move repositioning in the system phase is a big call, and as I've said, it's not something FFG will do because that's not what they want in the game. And that's fine. I actually think the best argument against moving pre-move repositions to the systems phase is that the game then might start to look like it actually has two movement phases, and that's a little weird.

So the point is a little self-defeating anyway. I don’t think a very focused errata on those three cards would be a total pipe dream. Given enough time it could happen, and there would be so much to gain from it.

I would certainly rather see an errata to AS than a new version like Precog. It was my 1.0 dream to make AS B-Wings work and I’m still hoping 2.0 can deliver.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

24pts for PS 5 for example, would be ludicrously high.

You’ve now guaranteed Gina, Ric, and Corran Will never take it, and probably not Braylen, Ten, Kagi, Dalan, Xizor, Gavin, Vynder, etc. at those Kinds of prices.

Definitely doesn’t fix the problem.

now, if sensor was removed to Virago title and that was scaled, it would be at least a slight improvement, if only a short-term one.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That’s unworkable in the real world though. Maybe it would be better if they designed it that way from the start but it’s not a rules issue; it’s a wording issue.

You can’t fix it with a rule change, it requires a full on errata, which the devs are very wary of. They’re not about to errata every reaper and striker in the game, two versions of Sabine, young Anakin, and two astromechs without good reason.

Convincing them to errata five words on three cards might be workable.

You’ll get quite a bit of disagreement there. I don’t think I’ve heard any serious complaints about little Ani, Sabacc, or Countdown. Duchess is probably just too cheap (like many highly-mobile I5s can be). Sabine was genuinely the best rebel pilot in wave 1 before she got excessively nuked. She’s starting to come into her own again. And @gennataos will definitely disagree regarding BBs; at 1 point they’re a steal on generic T-70s. Precog is just weird, basically an unwelcome guest who came to fill someone else’s job but we know they were just replaced for political reasons.

So the point is a little self-defeating anyway. I don’t think a very focused errata on those three cards would be a total pipe dream. Given enough time it could happen, and there would be so much to gain from it.

I would certainly rather see an errata to AS than a new version like Precog. It was my 1.0 dream to make AS B-Wings work and I’m still hoping 2.0 can deliver.

Yeah a blanket move to the systems phase is an "X-Wing 3.0" change, not a change that really makes sense right now.

i remain quite happy that advanced sensors is bad on b-wings and u-wings and upsilons

all i want is for it to be bad on one additional pilot

21 minutes ago, svelok said:

i remain quite happy that advanced sensors is bad on b-wings and u-wings and upsilons

all i want is for it to be bad on one additional pilot

Make that three.

Advanced Sensors Redline is still on the Empire bench and waiting for the other Aces ahead of him on the depth chart to give him another chance. Rex to.

13 hours ago, svelok said:

best because it does nothing most of the time?

But enough times it would do something. Force would help on an average roll, but would be able to completely bail you out on a bad roll, where non-force users would be boned.

When I see pre-movement aces I am reminded of this.

Generally accepted as bad for the game. Restricted to 3-4 pilots total in 2.0. Mostly mediocre or prohibitively expensive in each of those cases by design.

Action Bombs and Pre-movement Abilities can be discussed as the roughly equivalent mechanics that they are.

Devices being moved to the system phase allows their prices to stay reasonable.

Pre-movement mobility some how avoided that treatment and now the cards are justifiably stuck requiring ban level costs at high init.

15 hours ago, svelok said:

best because it does nothing most of the time?

To me, it seems like a "why not throw it in" sort of nerf. Whatever other revisions happen with the Force, this might as well be included, to smooth out the most extreme cases.

Like, it's around 0.2 damage off a 3 or 4 dice attack, presuming 2 force. Defensively, about 0.0625 fewer evades on 2 green dice, about 0.14 evades on 3 green dice. That's not a massive nerf, but that's noticeable.