22 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

While replacing the Sensor slot on the Viper with a Tech slot may make sense from a gameplay perspective, it does not from a thematic perspective. I'd fall on the thematic side.

I agree on theming, but as anything in Legends is up in the air, I'm much more relaxed on it. Maybe the StarViper will show up in the Mandalorion at some point to justify it.

7 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Optics would be better on Vipers than any ST ship.

It'd be good, but better than any sequel trilogy ship sounds like an exaggeration. Why do you think it would be?

36 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Optics would be better on Vipers than any ST ship.

[...]

I would disagree for two reasons.

1) Vipers have three agility so more likely to roll focuses while defending than any two agility ST ships (T70/Tie SF)

2) Vipers have 3 Attack dice. So the odds of rolling at least one focus and one blank on the same attack go up dramatically compared to a two die attack. Obviously focus and blank means advanced optics can't do anything

I think optics is strongest on two die ships that can tank hits, see the Tie SFs and Heroic RZ-A2s.

But optics isnt such a common and powerful choice on t70s, who are arguably in a better position to hold onto a focus than a viper.

I feel pattern analyzer would be clutch, and i really like the targetting synchronizer idea for Xizor.

Edit

So just messing about with a dice calculator and my second point is not as clear cut as i thought.

A.O. Increases expected hits from a focussed 2 die attack from 1.5 to 1.8.

A.O increases expected hits from a focussed 3 die attack from 2.25 to 2.54

In both cases adding 0.3 hits per attack.

So unless the dice calculator is broken, actually Advanced optics should be really good on T70s and Special Force Gunner SFs, and still useful on Vipers.

Anyone with this experience?

5 hours ago, Manolox said:

i hope that the new app will bring ffg the possibility to price particoular upgrades differently for each pilot if needed.

this would solve all problems

I wouldn't go that far, but a few ships having discounts on a particular kind of upgrade seems like a reasonable middle-ground.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

Optics would be better on Vipers than any ST ship.

Better is a high bar to clear, but pretty good? Yeah.

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

So unless the dice calculator is broken, actually Advanced optics should be really good on T70s and Special Force Gunner SFs, and still useful on Vipers.

I've liked AO on 3-red ships, and been singing it's praises for a while. It's almost like having Outmaneuver, without the positioning requirements.

Heroic/Optics Reds are a great combination of tanky with consistent damage. AO on a generic Silencer is sweet, able to exert a lot of pressure if it gets ignored (which is what you want the 3rd ship in a list with Kylo and Blackout to do). Gunner SFs with Optics I haven't run with as much, but they're probably at least OK (just remember: Crack Shot >>> Fanatical on SF).

2 hours ago, wurms said:

Adv sensors is a horribly designed 2.0 card.

I don't really agree with that. AdvS wasn't a massively problematic upgrade in 1e, and 2e nerfed it and hiked the cost. I don't think it was an obvious problem going in, and only seems like a poor upgrade in hindsight. The extent to which it's really strong kinda shows how much things did get toned down and fixed in 2e. Only the success of 2e at enabling consequences allows us to see that AdvS is kinda maybe a problem.

To be sure, it has wound up being one of the more BS upgrades in 2e eventually. But if Guri's massive jump from PS 5 (usually transferred to 3, maybe 4) to Init 5 hadn't happened, we probably wouldn't really care about AdvS. Redline was kinda potent, but even at 8 points, with the nerfs to Torpedoes and their base cost? Should have been overall OK.

Like, there's a lot of bad designs which were obvious bad designs in 2e from the start. AdvS was something that slipped through the cracks.

Since we're getting way out in the weeds here, let's ask this question: is Advanced Sensors Guri really that much better (more annoying) than any small base Force user? Or Echo? Or Whisper?

Guri is good. Very good. So is Fett. So is Fenn. The rest of scum? Not so much. Average at best, and certainly not *good*. It seems like any time any single Scum pilot does marginally well, there are cries of "Nerf the everliving **** out of that rules-bending abomination!" But are they really that much better than any small base Force user? Or any TIE Phantom? Really?

24 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Since we're getting way out in the weeds here, let's ask this question: is Advanced Sensors Guri really that much better (more annoying) than any small base Force user? Or Echo? Or Whisper?

Guri is good. Very good. So is Fett. So is Fenn. The rest of scum? Not so much. Average at best, and certainly not *good*. It seems like any time any single Scum pilot does marginally well, there are cries of "Nerf the everliving **** out of that rules-bending abomination!" But are they really that much better than any small base Force user? Or any TIE Phantom? Really?

This.

Another thing people seem to ignore with Guri, is the viper dial is just a bleached B-Wing dial that trades K-Turn and T-Rolls for 3-speed S-Loops.. Sure it knife-fights like a beast even without Adv Sensors, but it has some significant limitations in it’s speed and available blues. I used to joke in v1 that the Starviper needed to have it’s battery jumped after performing an S-Loop. And even with boost/bend-roll repositioning before a maneuver, she still relies heavily on needing the right maneuver to avoid being left with her *** out in Rangeband 2 or 3 with no focus token to save her bacon.

And yet while she’s a strong pilot with Adv Sensors, you are dead right... Smal Base force users have access to force powers far greater than Advanced Sensors, and some like Anakin are even Pilot Skill 6! And I’d definitely rank a “point-sink“ Super Reflex Obi-Wan or Mace Windu as a far greater threat than an Adv Sensors Guri.

1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

Since we're getting way out in the weeds here, let's ask this question: is Advanced Sensors Guri really that much better (more annoying) than any small base Force user? Or Echo? Or Whisper?

Guri is good. Very good. So is Fett. So is Fenn. The rest of scum? Not so much. Average at best, and certainly not *good*. It seems like any time any single Scum pilot does marginally well, there are cries of "Nerf the everliving **** out of that rules-bending abomination!" But are they really that much better than any small base Force user? Or any TIE Phantom? Really?

She’s that much better than a generic inquisitor. Probably on par with most Vaders of similar cost. Certainly better than Grand Quiz.

Definitely not as good as Kylo though IMO. I might be wrong.

A little easy to move the goalposts here though; are you saying that she provides less point-for-point value, that she’d do worse 1-on-1, or something else? “Better” without context is prone to a lot of skewing, and bias will always affect that as well.

Scum has lots of good generic ships, and a few good aces (like most factions). It’s problem is that all the mid initiative pilots that really carry the faction flavor are (like in most factions) overlooked due to being on average a little overpriced for just how juicy they aren’t quite.

There's no issue with Guri / AdvSen. The game is more swarm heavy than ever, and all it takes is for a decent player to box her in with a few ships and she melts. She's pricey, and not melting metas.

This is an October 2018 argument just pretending to be relevant in July 2020 in a game that has changed immensely since 2.0 debuted.

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Force definitely needs something done about it.

This, so much. The hyper abundance of skillless mods is the only jeopardy to the game's long term health really.

1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

Since we're getting way out in the weeds here, let's ask this question: is Advanced Sensors Guri really that much better (more annoying) than any small base Force user? Or Echo? Or Whisper?

Guri is good. Very good. So is Fett. So is Fenn. The rest of scum? Not so much. Average at best, and certainly not *good*. It seems like any time any single Scum pilot does marginally well, there are cries of "Nerf the everliving **** out of that rules-bending abomination!" But are they really that much better than any small base Force user? Or any TIE Phantom? Really?

I don't know that she's really all that much better overall than the aces (especially force using aces) of other factions. But I think that, under the right circumstances, she tends to promote a feeling of helplessness more than almost anyone. With the possible exception of a full "Hand break Han" type of build.

When she isn't moving last, or isn't played well she can be ridiculously bad. But played well, you can see the light fade from your opponents eyes as they realize that it's no longer a 2 person game.

I love Guri as much as anyone. But I hate getting to that point in the game, and I understand the ire that she gets.

25 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Definitely not as good as Kylo though IMO. I might be wrong.

Ohh... that's a hard one.

Guri gets AdvS for about the price of Kylo shirtless, and she'll get a lot of extra health and stuff with the points needed to add Supernatural to Kylo. SNR/Primed Kylo probably gives Guri a run for her money at the kinds of things she does well.

Feels like Guri probably has better wingmen, though, and I think she'd knife-fight better. Weaker at Range 2-3, though.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

And I’d definitely rank a “point-sink“ Super Reflex Obi-Wan or Mace Windu as a far greater threat than an Adv Sensors Guri.

I think being 2 agility really matters, though. There's less flexibility to how Obi and Mace can pre-move, and with only 2 greens, it'll be a lot easier to chip damage them, and I think that matters. However stuff looks on paper, on table only Kylo and Guri have ever really pulled off their own kind of absurd pre-move shenanigans. Anakin maybe could in theory, but the lists never saw quite as much play, but probably more than SNR Obi or Mace.

Jedi also seem a lot more "fixable" with points. SNR has mostly gone away, except on Kylo, and simply increasing the costs on folks like Obi or Mace would make enough of an impact on the lists to matter. With the nature of loaded Guri lists, I think she'd be a lot less sensitive to points adjustments.

Additionally, simple builds with just 7B on Obi or Mace have been A LOT better than simple Guri. Same with simple Kylo. Overall, Guri does a lot better than Jedi (about the same as Kylo) at the untouchable ship, but lists with any Jedi have typically been more effective overall.

39 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

This, so much. The hyper abundance of skillless mods is the only jeopardy to the game's long term health really.

Eh, I think this stuff is mostly points-fixable.

Quote

Scaling for initiative has been one of the best tools that FFG has utilized, but that option doesn’t really help out here, as Advanced Sensors is pretty good for most initiatives. We could potentially spike the price up for just I5 and I6 while dropping the points a little for other initiatives, but really it feels like you are punishing every other I5 for Guri’s sins.

I think a small amount of scaling would help for advanced sensors. It is good on any initiative, but it is considerably better at higher initiative, because there are more bumps that you can avoid using advanced sensors. I do agree though that it shouldn't go higher than 10pts at i5, and that doesn't solve the guri problem - I'm mostly thinking of ships like the lambda, U-Wing and even 4-lom where advanced sensors could come down a few points.

More importantly, though, I'm with @ClassicalMoser : all pre-move repositioning should occur in the systems phase (yes, even adaptive ailerons). Pre-move repositioning at high initiative is consistently frustrating to play against, and we've seen it reach high levels of competitive play several times. That is the approach I'd like, but it's also clearly not the game that FFG wants to make - they want powerful aces and force users to be strong, which is why they print cards like precognitive reflexes. Fortunately the balance of power is not favouring pre-move repositioning too much at the moment

Note: putting all pre-move repositioning in the systems phase also means bombs/mines must be errata'd so that they may only be dropped before repositioning, just as with cloak.

I'm playing Guri together with Fenn Rau atm. It's one of the strongest (and most fun) lists I've ever played.

This discussion here is necessary I think and I would not have a problem if Guri loses her system slot.

X-Wing is about positioning. The coolest part is setting dials and thinking about your maneuvering options. Playing against an Adv. Sensors Guri can give you the feeling that your decisions doesn't matter at all. This creates a massive NPE which is problematic. I played over 50 games with Guri/Fenn. 10% of these games were auto-wins because my opponents can't do anything against her. In the last two tournaments I faced triple Silencers twice - the same guy. I won both games 200-0 with only losing one or two shields. He was so frustrated because he knew the game is already lost before it even started.

Even if you play against I6 pilots, Guri can get into positions where the I6 can't. For me personally playing against aces is a decent matchup as well.

Imo cards like Adv. Sensors, Supernatural Reflexes and Precog. Reflexes, Passive Sensors Vader shouldn't exist because it speaks against the fundamentals of the game.

On the other hand 90% of my games weren't auto-wins. Even if Guri has so much options you have to think really hard where you want to put her because one single mistake can result in a loss. Right now I'm playing against lots of 5-6 ship lists which is really tough for Guri because you can't dodge all the arcs. Mobile firing arcs, bombs and all kinds of control lists are tough to play against, as well.

I would definitely say that most of my matchups weren't easy. A guy in our local community started playing Guri/Fenn, too. He went 0-3 in our last tournament and 3-6 in our online league. I talked to him a lot and watched some of his games. One mistake with Guri (even if she has 7hp) and you're probably lose the game because green dice will betray you, Guri can only calculate and if she's not end up in range 1 she hasn't any mods.

You're also paying a premium price for these Upgrades which leads to the question how the rest of your list should look like. Supernatural Kylo costs 100 points. A fully loaded Guri 108. One ship alone without good wingmans can't win you games.

To sum this up: I don't think Adv. Sensors Guri is too strong BUT it can create NPE's which could lead to the problem that some people might even walk away from the game. It's also against the fundamentals of the game so I think it needs to be changed. Maybe use Supernatural, Adv. Sensors in the System Phase. Phantoms are decloaking in the System Phase, too and are still very strong and competitive.

So yes, even if it would break my heart, it should be adressed. 😪 Some of our locals don't want to play against me anymore if I bring Guri....

I think Guri deserves all the nerfs she can get.

@Ryuneke a list with a bit of 21 points and still winning more than 75% of its games is just wrong.

Having a 108 points Guri is no handicap but a feature (plus the 21 points bid). Just shoot one ship down and save the points. Hardly a fun and fair game.

But thats also a problem of the initiative system and how the not spend points count. --> lets count them as destroyed points for the opponent and i am fine with every bid out there.

Cheers NakedWookiee

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I think being 2 agility really matters, though. There's less flexibility to how Obi and Mace can pre-move, and with only 2 greens, it'll be a lot easier to chip damage them, and I think that matters. However stuff looks on paper, on table only Kylo and Guri have ever really pulled off their own kind of absurd pre-move shenanigans. Anakin maybe could in theory, but the lists never saw quite as much play, but probably more than SNR Obi or Mace.

Jedi also seem a lot more "fixable" with points. SNR has mostly gone away, except on Kylo, and simply increasing the costs on folks like Obi or Mace would make enough of an impact on the lists to matter. With the nature of loaded Guri lists, I think she'd be a lot less sensitive to points adjustments.

SNR has mainly dropped off because it was stupidly undercosted to begin with. Now at 32pts for PS 6, you don't see it on the likes of Vader or Anakin anymore. And Kylo even at PS 5 is on the far superior Silencer chassis, and given SNR is 100 pts and justifiably so.

But you are correct in that Agility 2 does make a difference... Except with Force they can not Focus at all and still get force mods. Adv Sensors Guri can’t expect mods without a Focus action unless she is dominating a knife fight, which is bluntly put where she excels. And it’s not as if Scum have much beyond the Falcon escape pod for Coordinate options. Even so, I’d still fear a a Calibrated Laser Targeting Obi with SNL, over an Advanced Sensors Guri.

8 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Since we're getting way out in the weeds here, let's ask this question: is Advanced Sensors Guri really that much better (more annoying) than any small base Force user? Or Echo? Or Whisper?

Guri is good. Very good. So is Fett. So is Fenn. The rest of scum? Not so much. Average at best, and certainly not *good*. It seems like any time any single Scum pilot does marginally well, there are cries of "Nerf the everliving **** out of that rules-bending abomination!" But are they really that much better than any small base Force user? Or any TIE Phantom? Really?

I've found that AdvSen Guri, when paired with Fenn Rau or Boba, is deadly. The player can have a deep enough bid to guarantee Guri will be moving with near-perfect information, which can allow the player to nullify almost any kill-box you can assemble with a swarm and laugh at the attempts of any other i5 pilot to engage her. Her pilot ability also means that, in the very worst case and she gets blocked, she still gets a free focus token for the defence. i6 pilots are no guarantee of keeping her honest, either. By contrast, the TIE Phantom is much less nasty (decloaking has to be done prior to anything moving, and the platform is much more fragile), and the small-base Force users suffer from high demands for their force points (especially the Delta-7s) and other chassis-related issues.

team advanced sensors is the team i possibly understand the absolute least

7 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

To sum this up: I don't think Adv. Sensors Guri is too strong BUT it can create NPE's which could lead to the problem that some people might even walk away from the game. It's also against the fundamentals of the game so I think it needs to be changed. Maybe use Supernatural, Adv. Sensors in the System Phase. Phantoms are decloaking in the System Phase, too and are still very strong and competitive.

So yes, even if it would break my heart, it should be addressed. 😪 Some of our locals don't want to play against me anymore if I bring Guri....

7 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

He was so frustrated because he knew the game is already lost before it even started.

Exactly. This is why we wrote this up. Watching the light die out of your opponent's eyes when they don't really get to play for the last 30ish minutes was the inspiration. @MidWestScrub sees it a lot. He even had a guy cede a game to him before placing ships because he was "the guy with Guri" at a tournament. She is likely fine, but those demoralizing experiences aren't fun for them, and aren't really fun for us.

Suggesting the tech swap is an olive branch to those demoralized folks but also, in theory, a buff to every other StarViper pilot.

P.S. @Ryuneke I've been reading the write ups in your thread. Keep up the good work. If you get an opponent that will agree to it, I suggest trying out Primed Thrusters Guri. She is still really strong, but will need to be re-learned.

28 minutes ago, svelok said:

team advanced sensors is the team i possibly understand the absolute least

I get it for ships like the G1A and the Lambda that have little to no reposition and little mobility. But otherwise, Team Not-AS is a group that I completely understand.

17 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

1. Advanced Sensors: Remove "Before you reveal your dial" and replace with "In the system phase" and remove "another action" and replace with "any actions

This would hurt Adv Sensors beyond the reposition. If the stated goal is to make Adv Sensors more like its apparent intention and be a tool to get actions pre red maneuver, then using Adv Sensors in the Systems phase is telegraphing to your opponent that you're doing a red maneuver. This allows them to react appropriately.

9 hours ago, gadwag said:

More importantly, though, I'm with @ClassicalMoser : all pre-move repositioning should occur in the systems phase (yes, even adaptive ailerons ).

This would totally kill the Reaper and all Strikers except Duchess.

Pre-movement repositioning is only a problem when its optional.

Adaptive Ailerons represent a barrier to entry for all other Strikers - figuring out how to use them is a skill that must be learned. Yes, it can be advantageous once figured out, but not game breakingly so.

Putting AA into the System phase makes an already difficult maneuver planning challenge even more difficult. No one would bother with it if you had to account for the fact that someone could reposition to block based on the direction of the AA manuever. It would be work that would never be worth the benefit.

16 hours ago, wurms said:

Adv sensors is a horribly designed 2.0 card.

23 minutes ago, svelok said:

team advanced sensors is the team i possibly understand the absolute least

There's nothing wrong with Adv Sensors.

It's an expensive card with heavy restrictions. On most pilots, the gain is relatively limited.

You are always sacrificing dice mods and double reposition, were applicable, by using it. The gain is that you avoid a rock you parked in front of the previous turn or a block. Given that half the point of a block is to deny tokes, the fact that Adv Sensors does that anyway means the advantage is limited. Maybe avoiding the block gets you out of a killbox. Maybe. But it's not like most ships that can take can do anything more useful than survive if they do that. Sure, if your opponent is already up on points and they use AS as means to dodge shots until time runs out I can see why that would be frustrating. But if your problem is 'they can get ahead on points then have a slightly easier time winding the clock down' then there are soooooo many pilots and upgrades in the game that should be higher priority targets.

Literally the only problem is Guri, because she gets that focus token and her barrel roll is bendy. She can exploit the reposition like no one else because she's basically the only pilot who can turn the bump dodge into an offensive position.

TIE Defenders like it a bit because it lets them angle those k-turns, and their turning ability sucks. But it turns off their free evade and any offensive mods, so outside a couple of janky Outmaneuver Ryad builds I've never seen it taken.

Adv Sensors is a really useful card on a ship with a dial full of red, though. Adv Sensors would give people a reason to take generic B-Wings, for example, if only the cost didn't make it so much more economical to take Braylen and Ten every time. Adv Sensors is basically the only way 4-LOM or Zuckuss can be close to useful.

And funnily enough that is exactly what this article is all about . I've yet to see anyone actually come up with a complete argument as to why these article is wrong that Adv Sensors Guri and only Adv Sensors Guri is wrong. It's just 'AdVaNcEd SeNsOrS bAd FfF dUmB'.

I think a lot of people get into weird mindsets about NPEs. They see an Adv Sensors ship dodge their maneuver and get annoyed because it feels like even a correct prediction goes unrewarded. But how often do people actually look to the benefit of that action? How many times do people simply step back and think, okay you've made my dial choice irrelevant but you're not actually turning that into scoring points by killing my ships. Yes, obviously that's what happens with Guri - that's the problem and the point of this post. But if people just stay calm and allow their opponent to dodge all their arcs and blocks because they've realised that ship is now pointing at only one ship with no dice mods while costing half the list, I think there'd be a lot fewer complaints.

16 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

I would also add that a ship can recover up to 2 force charges when it performs a focus action, not during the end phase.

This is just a straight buff to Vader.

He spends a Force to take a focus action pretty much every single turn anyway. So now he's getting that focus for free. He'd love it if that let him recover twice the current max number of Force tokens in a turn too, it would let him use Sense at range 3 for just the cost of the card. It would let him use Supernatural Reflexes without losing out on a Force token.

Even if you just made the rule that you recover 1 Force token on a focus action, it would still mean he got a focus action for free every single turn.

@MidWestScrub , @5050Saint

On the blog post itself, chalk me up as another general agreement. I don't think Adv Sensors Guri is too much of a problem. Frankly she's a blast to fly, but so expensive that I have trouble getting her in a list with enough dice to actually win a game. I think the game needs all the fun flying experiences it can get, and a lot of people seem to forget there's a 'silent majority' out there of people who play this game relatively casually and get a kick out of combos like this.

But equally, when all players are of equal and high skill, I can see the obvious problems with her. And swapping to the Tech Slot is a simple, elegant solution. Personally, I think it would just mean Guri gets Advanced Optics stapled to her instead because that keeps her both action efficient and lower variance, but making her dice a bit more consistent at the cost of making her possible to catch in arc again is definitely a net reduction in power and a big net reduction in NPE. Plus, I agree that it might just about make Xizor and Dalan playable. Probably more so Dalan, I still think Xizor sucks even if you treat him as a slightly better generic and not even Primed Thrusters will fix that.

Plus the Star Viper is meant to be crazy advanced and ahead of its time, I don't think making it the 'earliest' ship to get the future-advancement-representing Tech Slot is a problem at all. Not when the Scum faction as a whole already has access to the Tech slot via the Quadjumper.

1 minute ago, GuacCousteau said:

If the stated goal is to make Adv Sensors more like its apparent intention and be a tool to get actions pre red maneuver, then using Adv Sensors in the Systems phase is telegraphing to your opponent that you're doing a red maneuver.

Advanced Sensors isn't only used for that. It is great for when you know that you are going to get blocked. One of my favorite strategies with Guri is to just AdSens a lock then bump into an opponent, giving me the focus as well for a double modded shot.

2 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

This would totally kill the Reaper and all Strikers except Duchess.

I am uncertain on this. It certainly would make them more predictable, but also perhaps make them the best blockers in the game. Aileron-ing your I1 Reaper or a pair of I1 Strikers in the way of an I1 droid swarm denying their action then you s-loop behind them or just blast past them sounds pretty decent. I know that I've gotten a lot of value out of a systems phase boost from Deathrain, blocking all sorts of low initiative ships.

12 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

It seems like any time any single Scum pilot does marginally well, there are cries of "Nerf the everliving **** out of that rules-bending abomination!"

I see this weird persecution complex from scum players a lot. Where does it come from?

in the update that nerfed Boba/Palob/Tugboats, Redline/Whisper/Soontir went from 185 to 206 (+21)
in the update that nerfed Drea scruggs, Wedge/Braylen/Cassian/Ten went from 200 to 223 (+23)

8 minutes ago, svelok said:

I see this weird persecution complex from scum players a lot. Where does it come from?

in the update that nerfed Boba/Palob/Tugboats, Redline/Whisper/Soontir went from 185 to 206 (+21)
in the update that nerfed Drea scruggs, Wedge/Braylen/Cassian/Ten went from 200 to 223 (+23)

While I do agree with that we all play the victim, Palob, Drea, and maybe Tugs went up to unusable price points while Redline, Whisper, Soontir, Wedge, Braylen, Cassian, and Ten are all still very usable at their price points. Some say Soontir is still undercosted.

I say maybe on the Tugs as once the droids came out, they probably would have lost some of their intrinsic value. They were a great value at 28 points, but when a swarm of I1 ships is coming at you, you either get blocked so you can't tractor or you get a tractor on one, and the other 7 eat you alive. Also, with every other generic getting a discount, they definitely seem a little pricey now. Palob definitely was over nerfed as once droids and Jedi came on the scene, his worth plummeted.

33 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Palob,

Can confirm that Palob is still usable.

27 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Can confirm that Palob is still usable.

Usable, yes. Worth 30% of a list? Most of the time, no. Especially when facing the two factions that largely don't need/use focus or evade tokens. Unless you meant a Crow-less Palob which I have no experience with, so I cannot truly comment.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Even if you just made the rule that you recover 1 Force token on a focus action, it would still mean he got a focus action for free every single turn.

This gets at something: Focus to regain force doesn't really fit. Like "Spend the tokens to do the tractor moves" it gets talked about like some obvious easy solution that everyone would agree with, but I just don't think it's a great idea. Maybe it could work if built from the ground up in some 3e, but trying to shoehorn it into 2e creates other problems.

Now, I can see moving the force recharge timing to, say, fully executing a maneuver. More precisely, the Pattern Analyzer timing of after fully executing before the "check pilot stress" step (plus rules change vis a vis overlapping obstacles). I think it'd be a lot less awkward than regaining force based on focus actions, but still leaves in consequences for dialing in bad moves or getting blocked.

11 hours ago, gadwag said:

More importantly, though, I'm with @ClassicalMoser : all pre-move repositioning should occur in the systems phase (yes, even adaptive ailerons). Pre-move repositioning at high initiative is consistently frustrating to play against, and we've seen it reach high levels of competitive play several times. That is the approach I'd like, but it's also clearly not the game that FFG wants to make - they want powerful aces and force users to be strong, which is why they print cards like precognitive reflexes. Fortunately the balance of power is not favouring pre-move repositioning too much at the moment

Note: putting all pre-move repositioning in the systems phase also means bombs/mines must be errata'd so that they may only be dropped before repositioning, just as with cloak.

Something I'd be interested in seeing tested, played out. Could work, might not. We've got some proof-of-concept with how Phantoms and decloaks behave, and it seems like the kind of thing that'd be worth exploring.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

team advanced sensors is the team i possibly understand the absolute least

At least from my perspective, AdvS hasn't really been a problem--except for Guri. Redline and 4-LOM have been on the edge, but they were easily points-fixable.

AdvS B-Wings have been clean, wholesome fun. Even on a shuttle, it's fine. Like, I understand team guri npe, but without that absurd mobility plus Init 5 plus her ability to get a second full action, AdvS is just NBD--no bid deal.