Matt Cary dives into the feels bad and potential fixes for our favorite Starviper pilot.

Check it out here and let us what you think.

I mean, most folks seem to hate on Guri because they can't predict where she'll end up, which is because they so rarely see her (relatively). Whereas my locals have seen enough of my play to not worry so much.

But swapping System for Tech would just fine with me. Yeah. Do it.

It would be awesome to see what a Guri list could look like without Adv sensors. Might actually free the ship up. Some interesting fun things the ship could do besides being a points bunker next to Boba or Fenn.

For me I would probably leave a tech slot empty at all times and just equip Predator, Debri Gambit, or Lone Wolf + Burners when available. A very lightly upgraded Guri seems neat and is a much different, more nuanced ship. That bendy roll is still excellent.

For me it becomes a question of what ships you would put around Guri once the end game target stops being “try to take no damage”.

Something like Predator Guri + Fearless Old T + 3 Sycks seems cool. Probably would only be relevant to Hyper if they deal with Boba aggressively.

The blog is right that Advanced Sensors is good on all sorts of initiatives, so it isn't a great candidate for initiative pricing. Having access to 4 B-Wings with AdvS would be nice for the fans, so I really wouldn't go lower than 8 points. I think that'd probably be fair on all non-Guri pilots.

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I'm a fan of the Tech option.

Primed Guri just seems like fun. Blockable, and someone who just wants to get to Range 1, however that happens. You can risk stress, since you'll have options for positioning afterwards.

Pattern Analyzer generics might be OK.

But mostly, I want Tech on the E-Wing. PA there would be sweet (not amazing, but sweet . Add Elusive and R3? *chefkiss*), and Targeting Synchronizer almost surely isn't even something worth worrying about. Bringing a 56+ support ship to gain everyone locks--which only work with single mods--is worse than Jendon, and the list-Tetris isn't even that good... E-Wing + 3 Torp Ys? Eh. I can appreciate FFG being cautious with TS, and think it's probably priced right: that is, priced for Epic.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

It would be awesome to see what a Guri list could look like without Adv sensors.

Certainly would be a great use of Hyperspace.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

For me it becomes a question of what ships you would put around Guri once the end game target stops being “try to take no damage”.

Well... maybe just Fenn/Guri/Old T. Triple ace is a tried-and-true chestnut.

29 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Certainly would be a great use of Hyperspace.

no 2.0 box

56 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Having access to 4 B-Wings with AdvS would be nice for the fans, so I really wouldn't go lower than 8 points. I think that'd probably be fair on all non-Guri pilots.

7 or 8 sounds about right. IIRC it was 8 points, originally.

57 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But mostly, I want Tech on the E-Wing.

Stay tuned for the next blog: How to Fix an E-Wing! It should be out next week or the week after. Covid has our schedule all out of sorts, so I am uncertain.

58 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I can appreciate FFG being cautious with TS, and think it's probably priced right: that is, priced for Epic.

Pricing for Epic just feels wrong to me, as it is typically a niche format. 6 points for T-Sync is just a plain bad pricing, because you also must add the cost of whatever munition you are using, as well. You'll likely take multiple munitions to get more out of that upgrade, but those munitions are still only single modded. 6 points is too much. Maybe knock it down to 3. Maybe then Midnight might be able to get some use out of it since she likes to lock anyway.

58 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Pricing for Epic just feels wrong to me, as it is typically a niche format. 6 points for T-Sync is just a plain bad pricing, because you also must add the cost of whatever munition you are using, as well. You'll likely take multiple munitions to get more out of that upgrade, but those munitions are still only single modded. 6 points is too much. Maybe knock it down to 3. Maybe then Midnight might be able to get some use out of it since she likes to lock anyway.

I guess part of what I mean is that I guess I don't mind that it's overpriced. Are massed missile opening rounds something we really want? If not, then let's just be fine with it being overpriced for Standard.

Or another way to think about it: it ought to be priced on the basis of a list. How many points for a List to ignore the Lock requirements? Well, Passive Sensors is 3 points per ship. TSync isn't that far off, in that sense.

The fact that TSync has infinite scaling is... possibly bad design. Like, maybe it should have been a 2-charge or 3-charge (recurs all uses each turn), to keep it from getting out of hand in the extreme cases, so that it could be priced more fairly.

58 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Stay tuned for the next blog: How to Fix an E-Wing! It should be out next week or the week after. Covid has our schedule all out of sorts, so I am uncertain.

Anyhow, I don't even necessarily think E-Wings are that bad. Corran has seen some success (with a broken ID Han, but still), although he's probably a bit to expensive. Generics offer something kind of unique with their opening-round double-mods. I've flown some 3x Torpedo Knaves with R3, and they were OK. Not top tier, but like, a list you can have a good simple time playing.

Linked Lock is better than no linked action, even if it isn't nearly as good as the more common linked Focus.

Could they use a perk? Yeah, probably. I'd love to see them get cheaper astromechs (a two point reduction?), although there isn't really a way to accomplish that with current rules. Mostly, I think it'd be great fun and flavor. Double Locks? Better turns? Invest more points for Regen? All those would kinda bring their own playstyle.

That sort of targeted "This ship receives a X point reduction to Y upgrade type" would be a potentially fun balance lever. Not every ship, probably not most ships, but it'd be another dial that could be turned. A fun example would be G-1A with crew--Scum has so many neat crew, and a crew-carrier ship which is utter trash, but one FFG is hesitant to buff below 41 points...

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

It would be awesome to see what a Guri list could look like without Adv sensors. Might actually free the ship up. Some interesting fun things the ship could do besides being a points bunker next to Boba or Fenn.

For me I would probably leave a tech slot empty at all times and just equip Predator, Debri Gambit, or Lone Wolf + Burners when available. A very lightly upgraded Guri seems neat and is a much different, more nuanced ship. That bendy roll is still excellent.

For me it becomes a question of what ships you would put around Guri once the end game target stops being “try to take no damage”.

Something like Predator Guri + Fearless Old T + 3 Sycks seems cool. Probably would only be relevant to Hyper if they deal with Boba aggressively.

I have absolutely dabbled with Collision Detector Guri as a budget option. It's not bad. Just not as gonzo-good. I've also done a good deal more to try the use of Assassins with Fire Control and munitions, and they're...okay. They really need a solid Ace, but they're just a tiny bit too pricey to get in a truly solid third.

But a tech slot would be so much fun, yeah. I'd hit that with all of the 'Viper pilots, all day long.

are e-wings bad?

like at a given price bad? can't they just be cheaper? making corran cheaper has basically never even been tried

9 minutes ago, svelok said:

are e-wings bad?

51 point Silencer feels a lot better than a 50 point E-Wing, at least.

8 minutes ago, svelok said:

can't they just be cheaper?

Yup.

But maybe there's a spicier way. Tech over System would mostly just be fun , and they'd still probably need to be cheaper.

i hope that the new app will bring ffg the possibility to price particoular upgrades differently for each pilot if needed.

this would solve all problems

14 minutes ago, Manolox said:

i hope that the new app will bring ffg the possibility to price particoular upgrades differently for each pilot if needed.

this would solve all problems

i neither want to play 40k, nor want the developers to have to price approx. 7,000%+ more upgrades correctly, without accidentally making anything worse

I approve of the idea of dropping the Sensor Slot in favour of Tech. It makes a degree of sense, the Virago was packed to the gills with advanced systems, and while the mass-produced StarViper didn't carry all of them over, they would certainly have been a step above the average fighter for the time.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Are massed missile opening rounds something we really want?

Reminder that we don't have any 4-dice missiles yet other than homing, and TS specifically locks the assisting ships into single mods.

I really don't see it as a problem. Though I would go 4 points, not 3. It's not too far from playable, just a bit high.

I would also say that while I think the tech slot is the elegant solution, I do believe that sufficient data has been aggregated to make a decent batch of calculated errata:

1. Advanced Sensors: Remove "Before you reveal your dial" and replace with "In the system phase" and remove "another action" and replace with "any actions

2. Precognitive Reflexes: Same as above

3. Supernatural Reflexes: Remove "Before you activate" and add "In the system phase"

4. Inertial Dampeners: Card gets 1 charge (non-recurring). Remove "Spend one shield" and add "Spend one charge

5. Punishing One: Remove "If the defender is in your [front arc]"

6. R4 Astromech, L3-37, Leia, Nien Numb: Fix it so it makes sense and isn't like doing your taxes

I would also add two rules changes:

1. If a maneuver ends on an obstacle, it has not been fully executed

2. The player moving a ship with tractor tokens must spend all tractor tokens on the ship. Remove the stupid stress rule.

Do these things and you can pretty much fix everything else with points IMO. Force up, Aces up, most missiles down, cannons down a little, most non-force crew and gunners down a lot, Nantex up a little, Ensnare down a little, etc. etc.

Really good article IMO

Well thought about the tech slot.

The best solution against guri actually is..........I6

1 hour ago, svelok said:

are e-wings bad?

Not bad, but barely B-tier, it feels. As @theBitterFig pointed out, a Silencer is ofter better for similar points, as the Silencer gets significantly more flexability with the Autothrusters ability.

Going again to the E-Wings vs Silencers vs Starvipers: It's also about how fun they are to fly. Starvipers with the bendy roll are really fun. Silencers with really flexible repos and great blues are really fun. E-Wings... well... Double-mods can be an effective trick, but they're kinda average ships to dial in each turn. Most of the 3-red, 3-green ships out there are a bunch of fun, really spicy. E-Wings are mostly vanilla. Don't get me wrong, vanilla beans are a source of wonderful depth of flavor, but it's easy to end up wanting more.

42 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Do these things and you can pretty much fix everything else with points IMO. Force up, Aces up, most missiles down, cannons down a little, most non-force crew and gunners down a lot, Nantex up a little, Ensnare down a little, etc. etc.

I would also add that a ship can recover up to 2 force charges when it performs a focus action, not during the end phase.

21 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I would also add that a ship can recover up to 2 force charges when it performs a focus action, not during the end phase.

I personally love that idea. I think I've seen it suggested before. Force definitely needs something done about it.

It would be tricky to implement given the simple visual nomenclature though (single recurring triangle). Perhaps recovering all force points on a focus would make more sense. The other issue would be for example Kanan on Chopper or AP-5 could never recover force charges

Actually I rather like the thematics of Hate that would come as a result; blind rage from pain and desire for vengeance can be as powerful as intense focus, if you're evil.

Adv sensors is a horribly designed 2.0 card. It should have been charge based. Then it would not be a problem at any initiative. 8pts, 3 charges. Done. You have afterburners charges, and crackshot charges, why not adv sensor charges?

The only ships that should have infinite pre move actions are the ones specifically designed and built with it in mind like Sabine, etc. Adding infite pre move actions to any sensor slot ship can really hold back design ideas. Charge base limits brokenness.

26 minutes ago, wurms said:

Adv sensors is a horribly designed 2.0 card.

At least they added the "you cannot perform any other action during your activation" to prevent the PTL + Advanced Sensors combo from first edition.

Tech is now, and has always been, exclusive to sequel-era ships, to differentiate them from OT-era ships. This, in my opinion, is a good choice, as it gives the factions a clearer identity. While replacing the Sensor slot on the Viper with a Tech slot may make sense from a gameplay perspective, it does not from a thematic perspective. I'd fall on the thematic side.

That being said, though, the solution you propose is a nicely-considered one.

I could get behind a tech slot. While we sometimes think of Scum losing Illicit-exclusivity as a loss of faction identity... I dunno, I’m generally in favor of spreading upgrade types around where it makes sense. And Tech is very confined right now, but very promising. Giving more access to it could open up the game a bit more. In particular, Dalan, as you point out, could get a new lease on life with the right Tech.

Optics would be better on Vipers than any ST ship.

Would probably create a similar issue as it has for AdvSns, unfortunately....

Viper is just such a strong base chassis with those stats and linked focus actions.

I'd be willing to waive my "thematic" requirements for the tech slot if I saw that it would be balanced.

Legends is whatever people want anyway.

5 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Legends is whatever people want anyway.

Honestly I think this is how we justify Tech on Es & Vipers, and I wish I’d have thought of it a minute ago: they’re Legends ships that represented technological steps forward in their versions of canon . Just because we have Sequel-canon now doesn’t mean we should dismiss what these were in their time.