38 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Guri might still take it.

I would still take it on Guri at 14 points without a second thought.

I may be wrong, but Scum kinda struggles to field the classic 3 good ships archetype, unlike Imps.

If Guri lost Adv Sens and her ship dropped in points I would love seeing the build options.

8 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

I may be wrong, but Scum kinda struggles to field the classic 3 good ships archetype, unlike Imps.

If Guri lost Adv Sens and her ship dropped in points I would love seeing the build options.

You're not wrong. As much as advanced sensors is priced with Guri in mind, Guri is also priced with advanced sensors in mind. If a reasonable solution was implemented for the Guri/AdSense problem, her price could drop some and really open up some options for different stuff for scum.

As it stands she's just doesn't pull her points when run without AdSense. Which is sad.

While not *good* Fang aces is wicked *fun*

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

While not *good* Fang aces is wicked *fun*

Man, there's a*lot* of Scum sitting in this position.

Although, I'd add the caveat that most of it is fun until about thirty-five minutes in, when it all falls apart and suddenly you're just under the hammer without an escape route. But for that thirty-five minutes? Niiiiiiice.

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

While not *good* Fang aces is wicked *fun*

Give me Old T back, Hyperspace, you had no right!

On 7/20/2020 at 5:55 AM, 5050Saint said:

If they have access to cheap Adv Sensors, they likely won't be taking S-Foils, as AdSens is far too good. Ten Numb would have field day with it, always having lock focus even if he did a turnaround maneuver.

Double-tapping with a cannon gunship is pretty ******ed nice. If Sensors are even just 5 pts for PS 2, that would force it to be a decision between the Blue Squadrons with Adv Sensors, or cheapest (effective) cannon upgrade of 3pts + S-Foils.

And Ten Numb’s PS 4. He wouldn’t be getting Adv Sensors for cheap if it was scaled off pilot skill.

On 7/20/2020 at 1:55 PM, MidWestScrub said:

I would still take it on Guri at 14 points without a second thought.

It could be 15 at PS 5, and Guri could jump up to 75 base, and I’d still duct tape it to her card because she’s simply that much fun to fly. And always has been since Wave 6 of v1.

On 7/20/2020 at 5:08 AM, theBitterFig said:

...The fact that ships like the Lambda and G-1A are action starved is why AdvS is good. ...

I’m not saying it isn’t good. I’m saying the best you’re doing is ensuring you get your single action with the ships that are otherwise are starved for them and hampered by a sucktastic dial. I still wouldn’t call it double actions.

Quote

Fact is, ships in this game--on average--get fewer than one action per turn.

Most ships, yeah I’d agree to that. Ultimately you’re lucky to average **** close to 1 action every turn, assuming you didn’t need to pull a red turn around. But A-Wings, Interceptors, Defenders, Fangs, Starvipers with or without Adv Sensors, Silencers, Fangs... an average of less than 1 action per turn during their lifetime in a game means you weren’t partying hard enough.

Quote

Advanced Sensors opens up a lot of options for where you can be with what tokens you have. It simply does. Focus or lock before bumping is great for slowrolling, too. Lock before a K-Turn or T-Roll can be stellar for double-taps.

...

Yes, been playing with it for many years now. I know how it opens up a lot of options.

10pts for Initiatives 1 and 2 seems too high as is. It could easily be made 5 or 6 points, which would put a kibash on 4 Blues with S-Foils, a Cannon of your choice that doesn’t jam, and Adv Sensors. And if it scaled, it could be along a price line of 5/6/7/8/10/14/18, for Initiatives 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 respectively.

And for ****’s sake, that’s a hypothetical idea, not values I’m writing in stone as “these are the points that it must be.” If it’s better balance to have Adv Sensors be 10pts across the board, and 20pts for for pilots named “Guri”, then so be it.

2 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

10pts for Initiatives 1 and 2 seems too high as is. It could easily be made 5 or 6 points, which would put a kibash on 4 Blues with S-Foils, a Cannon of your choice that doesn’t jam, and Adv Sensors. And if it scaled, it could be along a price line of 5/6/7/8/10/14/18, for Initiatives 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 respectively.

And for ****’s sake, that’s a hypothetical idea, not values I’m writing in stone as “these are the points that it must be.” If it’s better balance to have Adv Sensors be 10pts across the board, and 20pts for for pilots named “Guri”, then so be it.

I mean, if you're saying 6 or 7 instead of 3, that's a pretty big difference , and probably closer in line to the value added--the actions per game--of Advanced Sensors on a lot of these low-init ships. It's a difference so big that it's like two entirely different arguments.

//

For me, some of it is also a philosophy of scaling. I think it's kind of a pain. I like that 2e has the option, and I like that prices can be fixed on problem upgrades, but there's a downside to the non-transparency of prices that this brings. There are clearly places where scaling needed and useful and straightforward. Agility-based scaling is pretty much perfect. However, a lot of Initiative-based scaling can probably be eliminated.

For Advanced Sensors specifically, if 7 is fine on an Init 2, I think it'd be more pleasant to have it be 7-8 on everything, so we don't have to mess about with scaling, then go after AdvS Guri sideways, with something like getting rid of the slot entirely.

Looking at something else, like Seasoned Navigator or Squad Leader, just price them like they were Init 4-5, and call it a day. Once nearly everything has Initiative scaling, it'd be better to just raise the base price of high Init pilots a little, because it's already so valuable in terms of moving last and init killing stuff. Sure, that'd put a ding into something like a Squad Leader Pheonix A-Wing or Mining TIE, but I think it'd be worth it so that we don't need to check a spreadsheet when figuring out how much Squad Leader costs. It's a trade-off between between ease of use and ultra-precise power levels on edge-case ships.

3 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Double-tapping with a cannon gunship is pretty ******ed nice.

The problem with the B-Wing double tap has been that they are un-modded shots since you must save your lock to shoot the second cannon, and then spend it to fire the second cannon. If your opponent is rolling 2 or more defense dice, 3 red dice with a focus is statistically better than an unmodded primary followed by an Autoblaster shot. At one defensive die it's about even, and only at zero does the double shot statistically do more damage. If you are Ten or Braylen you can get the extra mods to power up those double-tap shots, but for every other B-Wing pilot, the Foils are just decent.

But more often, having a 3 die focus shot is better, and AdSens would give you that pretty much every turn. 7 points across the board would be fine if Guri gets taken out of the equation. If not, 7/7/7/7/14/21 seems like decent scaling to me. That still allows for 4 of the I3 B's with AdSens and Crack Shot. That's a punchy and beefy list.

5 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

If you are Ten or Braylen you can get the extra mods to power up those double-tap shots, but for every other B-Wing pilot, the Foils are just decent.

Yet another reason why it should be baked into the chassis.

Just stick it in the B-Wing reprints already! What sense did it make to publish the reprint while the config was still in development in the first place?!

20 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Just stick it in the B-Wing reprints already! What sense did it make to publish the reprint while the config was still in development in the first place?

I was disappointed when the 2nd Edition B-Wing print didn't have the foils, especially when they had already been announced before the Hotshots and Aces pack released.

12 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I was disappointed when the 2nd Edition B-Wing print didn't have the foils, especially when they had already been announced before the Hotshots and Aces pack released.

Yeah it's just the stupidest oversight ever.

TBH it wouldn't hurt anyone to package it in future reprints.

Hopefully though, it will end up in Phoenix Cell and we'll have enough sources for it that not being included in the expac isn't enough reason not to zero-cost it.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Yet another reason why it should be baked into the chassis.

Just stick it in the B-Wing reprints already! What sense did it make to publish the reprint while the config was still in development in the first place?!

I mean, it'd have been nice if they'd thought of it sooner, but until the card is available to all players, it shouldn't be baked in. It's not just not in thexpack, but not in the conversion kit.

Now, if FFG wanted to have a one-time "print this off at home" sort of thing, fine.

37 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's not just not in thexpack, but not in the conversion kit.

They never said that wouldn't be a problem. They just said any problems could be overcome without rebuying plastic. This will still be true due to Hotshots and Aces.

No new models necessary to get your B-Wing up to snuff. Hotshots and Aces is such good value it's basically a mandatory buy if you care about how well you do anyway.

23 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They never said that wouldn't be a problem. They just said any problems could be overcome without rebuying plastic. This will still be true due to Hotshots and Aces.

No new models necessary to get your B-Wing up to snuff. Hotshots and Aces is such good value it's basically a mandatory buy if you care about how well you do anyway.

I honestly don't care about what FFG said. Promises from corporations aren't worth spit, so I've got zero interest in trying to parse out exactly what they meant.

I care about what players have to go through. I'm totally fine with good-but-optional upgrades like Autoblasters being gated. I don't like it with straight 0-point configs. Instead, it just winds up being BS.

Why not avoid that BS? We can change prices in this game, and shift costs around between upgrade and ship and so forth. It's easy, it's trivial. Even if overall B-Wing pricing is based around S-Foils, making sure they cost at least 1 point means that there's the tiniest something as an option to players who don't have access to the product--at this point an often-enough sold-out product.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I care about what players have to go through.

I agree. I just think the best solution would be to throw it into all future B-Wing reprints. It wouldn’t be that hard.

I think it should be free for gameplay reasons.

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think it should be free for gameplay reasons.

Eh. I think the difference between 0 and 1 is close enough that I don't see a good reason for it not to just be 1. I think an S-Foils Blue B-Wing is worth at least 42 points, so why not have it cost 41 and the foils 1?

Maybe S-Foils will be widely available at some point in the future, and it gets baked completely in eventually. One of the strengths of the 2e easy-revisions pricing system.

19 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

The problem with the B-Wing double tap has been that they are un-modded shots since you must save your lock to shoot the second cannon, and then spend it to fire the second cannon. If your opponent is rolling 2 or more defense dice, 3 red dice with a focus is statistically better than an unmodded primary followed by an Autoblaster shot. At one defensive die it's about even, and only at zero does the double shot statistically do more damage. If you are Ten or Braylen you can get the extra mods to power up those double-tap shots, but for every other B-Wing pilot, the Foils are just decent.

From a strictly statistical analysis, I completely agree with you. I’ve found that if flying a generic B without support I tend spend the lock for a second shot if the 3-die primary rolls well, or when it’s prepared a lock prior and has that Focus as well.

When flying with support... well, all bets are off and we’re no longer looking at it’s performance in a vacuum state. I do love Garven and/or Dutch when playing rebels, and they synergize well with B-Wing S-Foils.

20 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, if you're saying 6 or 7 instead of 3, that's a pretty big difference , and probably closer in line to the value added--the actions per game--of Advanced Sensors on a lot of these low-init ships. It's a difference so big that it's like two entirely different arguments.

It wasn’t intended to be even a single argument. It was a suggestion with some hypothetical numbers tossed out and a messy reason that it didn’t feel right (to me personally) for Adv Sensors to be expensive on low-initiative platforms.

Quote

For Advanced Sensors specifically, if 7 is fine on an Init 2, I think it'd be more pleasant to have it be 7-8 on everything, so we don't have to mess about with scaling, then go after AdvS Guri sideways, with something like getting rid of the slot entirely.

F—-. That.

That would be my actual argument. One of the only unique features to the Starviper is the system slot on a small base. And the ship is simply fun to fly because of it’s interaction with Microthrusters. Removing the system slot years later because Sun Fac is no longer the NPE of the month(s), and we’re scraping the barrel for what to nerf next, is disheartening. And trading it out for the new trilogy tech slot would definitely be a downgrade overall to the Starviper.

Starvipers are meant to be squirrelly knife fighters. Kick Guri up in points if we need to, or even make her a special case where Adv Sensors are priced expensively just for her. If we’re to give Scum another ship with a tech slot, can we please make it an actual NT ship instead?

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

It wasn’t intended to be even a single argument. It was a suggestion with some hypothetical numbers tossed out and a messy reason that it didn’t feel right (to me personally) for Adv Sensors to be expensive on low-initiative platforms.

You can see, however, how what you were saying didn't really get your point across. The very low price tossed out, plus the suggestion that Advanced Sensors ships aren't getting that many extra actions, is going to lead folks to see that you're arguing that they're very weak on low Init ships, and it came across to a lot of folks replying here as a very specific argument.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

F---. That. would be my actual argument. One of the only unique features to the Starviper is the system slot on a small base. And the ship is simply fun to fly because of it’s interaction with Microthrusters. Removing the system slot years later because Sun Fac is no longer the NPE of the month(s), and we’re scraping the barrel for what to nerf next, is disheartening. And trading it out for the new trilogy tech slot would definitely be a downgrade overall to the Starviper.

I mean, if you like AdvS Guri, fine.

But overall, I don't think that's an accurate description of what's going on here though.

• This isn't just hunting for something new to be mad at. A lot of folks--at all skill levels from large tourney to casual night--have hated AdvS Guri since long before Sun Fac, because she actually is an outlier that makes players feel like they can't do a thing.
• Given the massive bids Guri often brings, a price jacking on AdvS probably doesn't matter a tonne. It isn't that the list is too good (it isn't), it's that games against the list are kinda horrible. Points adjustments make lists worse, they don't necessarily make games better.
• Meanwhile, Sensor Slot mostly gets left empty by Starvipers other than AdvS Guri.

4 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

F—-. That. That would be my actual argument. One of the only unique features to the Starviper is the system slot on a small base. And the ship is simply fun to fly because of it’s interaction with Microthrusters. Removing the system slot years later because Sun Fac is no longer the NPE of the month(s), and we’re scraping the barrel for what to nerf next, is disheartening. And trading it out for the new trilogy tech slot would definitely be a downgrade overall to the Starviper.

The system slot on a small base is not an unique feature of the StarViper. It's on several other small base ships. The unique feature is the Microthrusters rolls. The system slot is either filled on Guri or left empty on every other pilot. Saying the Tech slot would be a downgrade on the StarViper is out and out wrong. At the very least, it is equal. But I think it is better.

TrajSim is useless. FCS is only okay, and is best on Guri, but she's taking AdSens. Also, you are likely barrel rolling and focusing, so locks are infrequent. Passive Sensors is meh as you'd rather barrel roll and focus. Collision Detector is decent, but with the bendy roll, you should be able to avoid rocks better than most and also generate the unpredictability that driving through a rock on purpose does. AdSens is too good to lower in price for the Viper (see the location map from the article) or to lower for other ships, so only Guri takes it to make the most out of the cost.

Contrarily, Primed Thrusters is good on Dalan, Guri, and the Virago title. We have tried out Primed Thrusters Guri, and she it still stupid good, so no big loss there. Pattern Analyzer is okay; not bad, but not great by any means. TSync is just okay, might be better if the cost goes down. Advanced optics is probably the best for the non-Guri's as they always focus or roll link focus. It raises the probability of getting 3 hits on 3 red dice by about 19% from 42ish% to 61ish%. It raises the chance of getting 2 hits by 9.38% from 24ish% to 33ish%. That leaves 6ish% for 1 hit rolls. Powering up the focus on the Viper is just plain good. The tech slot is a powerup.

I do agree that AdSens Guri isn't Sun Fac levels of NPE, but you can watch the light die out of your opponents eyes once they realize that they cannot win or even get shots on you after a certain point. There are only a few of us that have flown Guri to great success (PhilGC and Myself are the only ones I know of), but those of us who have, know that she can destroy an opponents morale. I'd be fine with everything staying the same, as I love flying her. We at the blog are not being alarmist, but we have had several experiences where we sit down with Guri and our opponent gets demoralized before we even start the game. @MidWestScrub even had a Hyperspace tournament opponent forfeit a match because they knew how good he was with her.

Again, we are not crying "OMG Plz nerf Gur1!!!", but we understand her strength AND would like the other pilots to do well. Tech is a minor nerf to her, but a buff to the others. And again, it opens up slightly lower pricing on AdSens for other ships and pilots.

50 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

The system slot on a small base is not an unique feature of the StarViper. It's on several other small base ships. The unique feature is the Microthrusters rolls. The system slot is either filled on Guri or left empty on every other pilot. Saying the Tech slot would be a downgrade on the StarViper is out and out wrong. At the very least, it is equal. But I think it is better.

TrajSim is useless. FCS is only okay, and is best on Guri, but she's taking AdSens. Also, you are likely barrel rolling and focusing, so locks are infrequent. Passive Sensors is meh as you'd rather barrel roll and focus. Collision Detector is decent, but with the bendy roll, you should be able to avoid rocks better than most and also generate the unpredictability that driving through a rock on purpose does. AdSens is too good to lower in price for the Viper (see the location map from the article) or to lower for other ships, so only Guri takes it to make the most out of the cost.

Contrarily, Primed Thrusters is good on Dalan, Guri, and the Virago title. We have tried out Primed Thrusters Guri, and she it still stupid good, so no big loss there. Pattern Analyzer is okay; but bad, but not great by any means. TSync is just okay, might be better if the cost goes down. Advanced optics is probably the best for the non-Guri's as they always focus or roll link focus. It raises the probability of getting 3 hits on 3 red dice by about 19% from 42ish% to 61ish%. It raises the chance of getting 2 hits by 9.38% from 24ish% to 33ish%. That leaves 6ish% for 1 hit rolls. Powering up the focus on the Viper is just plain good. The tech slot is a powerup.

I do agree that AdSens Guri isn't Sun Fac levels of NPE, but you can watch the light die out of your opponents eyes once they realize that they cannot win or even get shots on you after a certain point. There are only a few of us that have flown Guri to great success (PhilGC and Myself are the only ones I know of), but those of us who have, know that she can destroy an opponents morale. I'd be fine with everything staying the same. We at the blog are not being alarmist, but we have had several experiences where we sit down with Guri and our opponent gets demoralized before we even start the game. @MidWestScrub even had a Hyperspace tournament opponent forfeit a match because they knew how good he was with her.

Again, we are not crying "OMG Plz nerf Gur1!!!", but we understand her strength AND would like the other pilots to do well. Tech is a minor nerf to her, but a buff to the others. And again, it opens up slightly lower pricing on AdSens.

THANK YOU for reiterating this.

As of last season's data, if both players brought Guri, the player with the deeper bid won 3 games of 4 .

That's not a pilot that's healthy.