25 points and I play 8 Aggressors and people get crushed because that sheer level of health/agility/dial would break the fundamental parity of the game’s maths and being able to beat the squad in 75 minutes.

They can’t go lower because they’re already incredibly good and sitting just above a break point that would launch them into the stratosphere.

Ok, well, rather than start a “Talk to me about TIE Bombers” thread (which I was probably gonna do anyway), while we’re kind of on the subject, let’s roll them into this thread.

They seem to be massively hurt by being a front-arc-only torpedo/missile carrier with mostly low initiative, mediocre-to-poor mobility, and the lack of a Sensor slot. I can see them having some sort of value when run naked, but how does one justify putting the more expensive missiles and torps on these things when their difficulties acquiring a lock and keeping more mobile targets in arc and at the correct range means they may never get to fire anything but (maybe) their (weak) primary?

Just for the value of attracting a new bunch of opinions I would recommend starting a new thread for 'Talk to me about Bombers'

People clicking this thread are looking for conversation about Aggressors.

That said, the answer to "how do I get a lock with my Scimitar to fire lock-ordinance on first engagement?" Is you can support a few bombers with either a Tarkin crew carrier or Col. Jendon as a shuttle pilot to aquire a lock long before the first engagement.

Alternatively, you don't (not without support anyways). Either you run a focus missile (Barrage or Proton) or you get a lock as the enemy passes by and you got them with a torpedo later.

56 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

They seem to be massively hurt by being a front-arc-only torpedo/missile carrier with mostly low initiative, mediocre-to-poor mobility, and the lack of a Sensor slot. I can see them having some sort of value when run naked, but how does one justify putting the more expensive missiles and torps on these things when their difficulties acquiring a lock and keeping more mobile targets in arc and at the correct range means they may never get to fire anything but (maybe) their (weak) primary?

Can I use the 'everything you just said was wrong' meme again?

They're a lethal rear-arc bomber with above average mobility. The name of the ship is 'bomber'. Hint: put bombs on them.

3 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

25 points and I play 8 Aggressors and people get crushed because that sheer level of health/agility/dial would break the fundamental parity of the game’s maths and being able to beat the squad in 75 minutes.

Comparing to FOcho it comes up pretty similar to me. 1 more HP but 1 less agility and FO has a massively more flexible dial and easier evade.

But what do I know? Maybe it’s just my play style but I’d still prefer the FO most of the time.

2 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Can I use the 'everything you just said was wrong' meme again?

They're a lethal rear-arc bomber with above average mobility. The name of the ship is 'bomber'. Hint: put bombs on them.

Couldn’t agree more. Fantastic ship for a steal right now. I3 again comparatively overpriced but it almost doesn’t matter since the I2 is such a steal.

Amazing ship ability too; this thing wants to bomb.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

get a lock as the enemy passes by and you got them with a torpedo later.

I really want to see more on this tactic tbh. Jendon, probes, etc. are kind of cheese but I’m super curious if there’s more viability in the “Beta Strike” than people give credit for.

Classic example: 7 concussion Z-95s. You know you’ll have a bad first engagement, so you play for damage control and try to plink with your primary.

Ideally, take the lock just after the first pass while they’re modless or facing away. Then you win every joust after that. Tough calls to make though and I’m not experienced enough to know how to optimize it.

Though on the other hand, I’ve had anecdotal success with TIE bombers alpha striking with APTs. A little range control works pretty well for locking at R3 and catching them at R1, but doesn’t work well against experienced opponents.

7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Comparing to FOcho it comes up pretty similar to me. 1 more HP but 1 less agility and FO has a massively more flexible dial and easier evade.

But what do I know? Maybe it’s just my play style but I’d still prefer the FO most of the time.

It will be very close to FOcho, but with two main advantages: the linked evade is important and makes the Seinars more maneuverable as you’re not sacrificing mods to barrel and block, and the extra hull is better when you’re stressed than an unmodded green dice.

Id run FOcho/Scocho vs 2-dice swarms, Aggressors vs 3 dice & aces

I feel something is amiss if they go from "nice but irrelevant" to "hidden gem" in a few pages...

14 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Can I use the 'everything you just said was wrong' meme again?

They're a lethal rear-arc bomber with above average mobility. The name of the ship is 'bomber'. Hint: put bombs on them.

I don’t have much confidence in the bomb mechanic. I mean, what’s the expected damage output from a 5 or 6 point proton bomb? 2-4? And good luck putting that damage on a desired target.

Maybe I need more practice with bombs, but they often seem far too situational and matchup-dependent.

35 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

I feel something is amiss if they go from "nice but irrelevant" to "hidden gem" in a few pages...

Is there? If a ship is a hidden gem, the broad perception of that is going to be that it's nice but irrelevant.

42 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Is there? If a ship is a hidden gem, the broad perception of that is going to be that it's nice but irrelevant.

Ok. Lets go with this. So many players are simply unaware of the merits of a ship. Still, the "heavy users" or tourney-junkies are oblivious to it too? Why is it not flown more?

Lack of 2.0 availability is a good reason, yet now that we are on a full "digital season" that should not be a issue.

37 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Ok. Lets go with this. So many players are simply unaware of the merits of a ship. Still, the "heavy users" or tourney-junkies are oblivious to it too? Why is it not flown more?

Lack of 2.0 availability is a good reason, yet now that we are on a full "digital season" that should not be a issue.

Beats me.

I mean, that's just people. There's popular stuff which isn't as good as it's popularity. There's unpopular stuff which is better than it's lack of play. There's a lot of inertia, folks who want to fly the same stuff as always.

2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I don’t have much confidence in the bomb mechanic. I mean, what’s the expected damage output from a 5 or 6 point proton bomb? 2-4? And good luck putting that damage on a desired target.

Maybe I need more practice with bombs, but they often seem far too situational and matchup-dependent.

Proxy Mines.

6 Hyena Bombers with proxy mines won Brazilian nats last year and you can now play 6 Scimitar Bombers instead. It did well at some of the Space Jams but didn’t make cut. 4 Proxy Scimitars with Echo did make cut in one of them though.

I nearly qualified for worlds last year with Vader/Soontir and two Proxy Scimitars, I was just unlucky to run into the MK System Open winner then week after he won with Han/Jake and was intent on proving it wasn’t a fluke.

They should really be called TIE Miners instead of TIE bombers. Think of them as mini Sol Sixxas

I really liked the old 6x Proton Scimitar list. Was crazy but stupid fun. Lots of health, 6 primary attacks, and tons of placement options with those bombs. It's easy enough to stack three on a ship and just murder it with crits, not to mention the AOE can hit a lot of ships at once.

Red reload is more useful than you would think too.

And you still have 6 primary attacks to finish stuff off. Good clean wholesome fun.

On 7/4/2020 at 5:37 PM, Stay OT Leader said:

25 points and I play 8 Aggressors and people get crushed because that sheer level of health/agility/dial would break the fundamental parity of the game’s maths and being able to beat the squad in 75 minutes.

They can’t go lower because they’re already incredibly good and sitting just above a break point that would launch them into the stratosphere.

If aggressors at 25 would be stupid good, why aren't people flying 8 naked hyenas? Surely calc sharing makes up for initiative? Is it the linked evade? Because a couple of healthy hyenas in a swarm of 8 can pretty safely take locks to double mod attacks.

EDIT: okay three discord vultures and 5 hyenas is obviously better than 8 hyenas, but people aren't taking that, either.

3 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

If aggressors at 25 would be stupid good, why aren't people flying 8 naked hyenas? Surely calc sharing makes up for initiative? Is it the linked evade? Because a couple of healthy hyenas in a swarm of 8 can pretty safely take locks to double mod attacks.

EDIT: okay three discord vultures and 5 hyenas is obviously better than 8 hyenas, but people aren't taking that, either.

The Hyena dial is much more awkward, you lose Focus for calculate which is a step down and the linked action you gain isn't great - if it was a linked calculate like the Vultures I'd like it more.

But fundamentally, 8 Hyena bombers is probably pretty good. Not as good as 8 Aggressors would be, or as good as FOcho, but I wouldn't rule it out. Don't forget 6 Hyena bombers won Brazilian nats last year - it's a great chassis that back in January I called "the most underrated ship going into Hyperspace".

5 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

If aggressors at 25 would be stupid good, why aren't people flying 8 naked hyenas? Surely calc sharing makes up for initiative? Is it the linked evade? Because a couple of healthy hyenas in a swarm of 8 can pretty safely take locks to double mod attacks.

EDIT: okay three discord vultures and 5 hyenas is obviously better than 8 hyenas, but people aren't taking that, either.

I had a thread a few months back: "Why is the Hyena so bad?"

It was, admittedly, a clickbait title, which I replaced with "Why aren't there more Hyena swarms?" Anyhow, just looking at the raw ship stats--two extra health on Vultures for 6 points is a pretty good value, plus they can bring nice upgrades. So I figure, "even though these look good, if we aren't seeing a lot of them, maybe there's secretly bad and I'm not realizing it." I was basically Vizzinni, tangled up in misconceptions, losing the battle of wits to the Dread Pirate Roberts in The Princess Bride.

End result: Hyenas are great ships, and weren't really being underplayed , and squads with a good number of Hyenas, usually plus Vultures, plus upgrades were really good. Sometimes, the issue isn't that a ship isn't being flown. Sometimes, the issue is that we don't realize a ship is being flown as much as it is.

But more directly, we don't see 8 Hyenas for the reason you pointed out: it's better to weave in a few cheaper Vultures since the upgrades are soooo good. Discord Missiles at least, maybe Probe Droids, maybe bringing DBS-32C with a Relay. Even PLASMA TORPEDOES. Looking at Jan 20 (points update) until today on Metawing, Techno Union Bombers are the top performing ship (Trade Fed Vultures #2). Most popular list is only 2 Hyenas, but lists do differ.

Yeah, Hyenas are actually pretty good, particularly when they are getting networked calculations.

This thread really goes to show that many players grossly undervalue 5-6 health 2-agility budget ships. I'm not sure why - everyone saw the value in torrents when they were released, and they are almost identical to the TIE aggressor.

Note: Torrent swarms are slightly less popular now due to the sinker nerf and the strength of droid and Focho/scyk swarms (torrents are better against big attacks, but don't love a swarm of smaller ones). I don't expect this to be a lasting setback - they are still good, and only stand to gain with the arrival of the LAAT.

10 hours ago, gadwag said:

I'm not sure why - everyone saw the value in torrents when they were released, and they are almost identical to the TIE aggressor.

As much as I like and appreciate generic Torrents they got alot of undeserved attention early on due to how cheap 7b R2 Jedi were.

Even Sinker Swarm in all of its varieties was never that great. It was a decent jousting list for swiss with very little potential in cut.

Aggressors have all the same problems Torrents, Bombers, RZ1As, Fireballs, Sycks, FOs, and other ships like them have.

In their respective factions most of the playerbase will always defer to running pure aces in higher volume.

Thats not to say you can't build solid lists built primarily around Torrents or Aggressors or stuff like it.

Its just kinda unpopular for the majority of the playerbase, the points do not encourage it, and there is a very real limit to how far it can take you.

12 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

The Hyena dial is much more awkward, you lose Focus for calculate which is a step down and the linked action you gain isn't great - if it was a linked calculate like the Vultures I'd like it more.

But fundamentally, 8 Hyena bombers is probably pretty good. Not as good as 8 Aggressors would be, or as good as FOcho, but I wouldn't rule it out. Don't forget 6 Hyena bombers won Brazilian nats last year - it's a great chassis that back in January I called "the most underrated ship going into Hyperspace".

I'd take 8 Hyenas over 8 Aggressors any day. Networked Calculations is the bomb.com, and it mitigates the lack of focus action. The linked action actually decent backed up by 5 or 6 calculates, as well. Having a shield would be nice, though.

10 hours ago, gadwag said:

I'm not sure why - everyone saw the value in torrents when they were released, and they are almost identical to the TIE aggressor.

Becuase Torrents were 25 from the launch of Republic and still are. TIE Aggressors started at 30, dropped to 28, and only in this latest update hit 26.

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

3 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Because Torrents were 25 from the launch of Republic and still are. TIE Aggressors started at 30, dropped to 28, and only in this latest update hit 26.

This.

It seems completely absurd that the TIE Aggressor released as 2 points *more* expensive than the TIE Bomber.

4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

As much as I like and appreciate generic Torrents they got alot of undeserved attention early on due to how cheap 7b R2 Jedi were.

Price changes also relate to why Torrents were an immediate pick, but using TIE/fo in a Kylo-based near-equivalent to Torrential (QD was still around back then... not so much an ace as an ace-killer so Kylo can win the late game) never really took off. TIE/fo started off at 28 points, dropped to 26 only after the Torrent had been out a few months, then eventually settled into 25. Likewise M3-A Scyks.

Likewise, when the Torrent premiered, Z-95s and Imperial TIE Fighters were 23 points.

I think it's undeniable that Torrents--at release--were pretty far ahead of the curve as far as this kind of ship went. It represented considerably more toughness per point in any filler ship.

Bloom has certainly gone off the rose. The combo of other-faction filler ships gaining equivalent efficiency with better dials, plus Republic gaining pocket aces with Ric Olie and buffed CLT, really make the release-era Torrent a lot less special.

12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Thats not to say you can't build solid lists built primarily around Torrents or Aggressors or stuff like it.

Its just kinda unpopular for the majority of the playerbase, the points do not encourage it, and there is a very real limit to how far it can take you.

I guess I achieved my goal of bringing torrents into the conversation. Let this thread henceforth be about all 2-agility ships with 5-6 health.

7 minutes ago, gadwag said:

I guess I achieved my goal of bringing torrents into the conversation. Let this thread henceforth be about all 2-agility ships with 5-6 health.

Unpopular Opinion: Generic HWKs are not bad, actually. Can't quite bring myself to say "good".

Sure, a point more than a Dorsal Aggressor, but they'll be able to focus/rotate. Add Leia to the squad, and a few of them (as many as 6, but probably OK in smaller numbers) can get lowkey nasty. If there's something turret ships do well, inexplicably it's exploit "parking lot" conditions. Being able to shuffle to a near space and have the turret arc with a Range 1 shot, often with mods while the opponent has none, kinda works.

Time-on-target, with mods, is a surprisingly effective factor. By rights, 30 points for 2/2/3/2 should be horrible. But always being able to have a focus for those 2 green dice, plus always have a shot, kinda adds up into something which is... well... I mean... maybe not even B-tier. But far better than it looks.

6 HWKs with Engine Upgrade and Leia is a meme, but honestly, you could do a lot worse with a goofy list.