....onestly... the only reason why i could use now an aggressor (26points) is because i can't fit a bomber (27 points)

kestal can be ok but he needs a dedicated list building with a coordinating ship and he fastly becomes too expensive.

the ship is ugly (but this is a personal opinion) and desperately need help.

More specifically not a point decrease (the points cost is quite ok..) but probably a configuration that make it does something different from bomber giving personality to the ship

@Cpt ObVus please keep up with these "Talk to me about..." threads.

The ship lacks personality. It can fill several roles, but another Empire ship can typically do that role better. Cheap filler = TIE Fighter, Ion control = Starwing w/Ion Cannons, Barrage Rockets Carrier = TIE Bomber.

Give it a Sensor slot and maybe with Veteran Turret Gunner, Fire-Control Systems, and a turret of choice, they might be worth checking out. That would also open up the option of being a Passive Sensors munitions carrier. Take the second missile slot off of the TIE Bomber, and it might become the go to Barrage Rocket carrier, but that build has been outdated for awhile now. Starwings can also fill that Barrage Rocket role, and they are as tanky as a T70, so maybe Aggressor's still wouldn't be the go to ship.

The best idea I have seen is to make a Missile + Turret upgrade, as they are the only ships that can take both of those upgrades. Make it a decent munition, and you might see these boys hit the table. If you gave the Scurrg back a missile slot, it would take it too, as that chassis isn't doing super great either. Not as bad as the Aggressor, but not good.

Playing around with list building this seems to be slightly interesting.

New Squadron

(45) Captain Jonus [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 53

(31) Lieutenant Kestal [TIE/ag Aggressor]
(8) Barrage Rockets
(3) Dorsal Turret
Points: 42

(27) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 35

(27) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 35

(27) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 35

Total points: 200

During the jank tank open i had a barrage rocket kestal and for 39 points it wasn’t terrible. The ability is pretty niche but if he rolls well can make other ships real sad

Cost missiles appropriately and they become good. Drop the chassis by one point and they become great.

They're Torrents, basically, except you can squeeze them into a turret position if you absolutely have to (you shouldn't).

Also I believe Dorsal should be 2 points and (if necessary) this should be reflected in the pricing of turret ships. Ion is good where it is and that's how the turret ships tend to be priced, but whether or not to take Dorsal becomes a more interesting question at 2 points.

15 hours ago, Rossetti1828 said:

They are. I've played them enough to know.

Good for you. But don't take this the wrong way. Stats say otherwise. When players are consistently making top cut with Tie Aggressors, then I'll believe you.

I think @theBitterFig summed it up from the first post of this thread.

On 6/25/2020 at 7:39 AM, theBitterFig said:

Solid enough turret ship for a pretty low cost. Decent, but like other cheap filler ships, you have to view it for what it is.

• Contrast a Dorsal Turret Aggressor to a Zeta Survivor TIE/sf. 29 vs 32 points. Similar-enough dials. TIE/sf only gets back-arc turret, but has more health. TIE Aggressor can point sideways and has a linked Evade, but loses Range 3 and a shield. It's probably at least OK as a high time-on-target filler ship.
• Contrast an Ion Cannon Turret Aggressor with an Ion Cannon Cartel Spacer M3-A Scyk. Both are 31 points. Defensive statlines of 2/4/1 and 3/3/1 are really similar, nearly identical survival times. Both have a 2 dice primary, and a 3 dice Ion weapon, but one is a turret gaining access to side/rear arcs, at the cost of Range 3. The dials are kinda different, but they're mostly all white as opposed to speckled red. Doesn't seem too bad on paper.
• There's a big "but" however. Turret ships fly really different. A Scyk is going to be a lot more familiar feeling, and a TIE/sf goes back-and-forth, so it also pretty easy. Trying to use the sides? It kind of boggles the geometry a bit.
• The other problem: they have a lot of good competition. 31 point Strikers and Interceptors are pretty reasonable ships, with solid offense from 3-dice primary weapons and great mobility. 27 points for a TIE Bomber is going to be far better for anything missile based, and probably better without upgrades (alas, swapping Aggressors out for Bombers in @Boom Owl 's list above would be 201 points, but there might be some tweak to be made... Grand Inquisitor out for PS/Homing 5th Brother?).
• Named pilots (or even Onyx)? I can't really see them being that good. But the Sienar Specialist is OK.

Every year after Worlds (if we do have it this year... <sniff>), i usually play around with non-meta or unpopular ships. Just for fun while hoping to find something janky that works.

42 minutes ago, FastWalker said:

Good for you. But don't take this the wrong way. Stats say otherwise. When players are consistently making top cut with Tie Aggressors, then I'll believe you.

I think @theBitterFig summed it up from the first post of this thread.

Every year after Worlds (if we do have it this year... <sniff>), i usually play around with non-meta or unpopular ships. Just for fun while hoping to find something janky that works.

I mean, I upvoted @Rossetti1828 so I agree more with "Aggressors are viable" than not. A lot depends on definitions of viable.

I think Aggressors are, like basic TIE/sf, simple and effective time-on-target filler. With a turret, they certainly cost more than a Torrent, but make up for it by having more turns they can keep guns on something with dice mods.

Like other filler, they're also outclassed by aces, particularly in Empire where they've got aces coming out of their ears.

Ion Cannon Aggressors are mathematically pretty **** comparable to Ion Scyks. We see Ion Scyks so why don't we see more Ion Aggressors? It's because they're in Hyperspace. It's because there aren't any other Scum ships in the price range with the same capabilities (3-dice ships in the low-30s). If Scyks were Imperial ships, same stats and slots and everything, we'd probably see a lot fewer of them.

Aggressors are not some ship which is particularly bad among generics. It's pretty much the same as anything else. You want to make some statement about how Generics can't cut it in general, fine. Hard to argue with that, given what Empire tends to look like with so many ace-based lists. But some "oh woe for the poor Aggressor?" Eh. I don't really bite. Aggressor is about on par. Different but roughly equivalent.

Side thing: I'm kind of surprised by the number of folks discussing Aggressors with the presumption that they wouldn't bring Turrets.

11 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

The ship lacks personality. It can fill several roles, but another Empire ship can typically do that role better. Cheap filler = TIE Fighter, Ion control = Starwing w/Ion Cannons, Barrage Rockets Carrier = TIE Bomber.

Perfect illustration. There's two things here I'd dispute. To be sure, TIE Bombers are better as Barrage Rocket ships, or without upgrades, getting an extra health and a better linked action for +1 points.

However, the ship does have personality: Turrets!!

This leads into the 2nd thing: Compared to a Starwing for Ion Control, I can't necessarily say one is better than the other. Starwings fly weirder than almost any other ship with their lack of flip moves, so they can only sweep out with big hard-slam-hard turns, and that's really hard to keep something in firing arc. They have more health, but that comes with a significantly higher cost, not 31 but 38 points, 41 if you bring Advanced SLAM. And I mean, it's not like Ion Starwings have actually been any more successful. I know folks love their Gunboats for lore and aesthetic reasons, but still.

Even without Ion, Dorsal Aggressors are unique within Empire. They have the time-on-target turret effect, to keep having more shots when other ships would wind up pointing off into space, or these can keep tokens while someone else would have to K-Turn. That's character and personality and what makes them distinct. Even just sticking the turret backwards and never moving it turns you into essentially a TIE/sf. Fly past someone while tossing a block with a different ship, and light them up with some focused Range 1 attacks backwards. Having extra firing arcs just opens up so much of your dial, and place where it wasn't worth flying to are now good spots to land.

While it doesn't make them Quad Phantom levels of busted, they aren't quite like any other ship in Empire.

looking at stat lines aggressors (26 points) seems to be comparable to cis bombers and torrents (25 points)

but if you look at the red part of the dial you will see that the aggressor's one is much worst

both bombers and torrents have red tallon r. and 1 hard that aggressor doesn't have....

for shure this should balance the fact that they have turrets slot but this is very limitating, considering their point cost, if you want to play them naked as filler

so easely if you play them you have to put an upgrade to make them worth it.

an aggressor wit a dorsal turret is 29 points and with an ion turret 31 points......

but 29/31 points start to be a "therritory" with alternatives for imperial players that sistematically chose someting else

ps:a thecno union bomber with discord mississiles (plus network calc) is 29

sorry for my english..

A good comparison - and one I've some experience with - is a Nantex Bughouse Swarm. 6 TIE/ag circle-strafing is quite a crossfire to try and deal with.

Massed light turrets are awesome. Yes, you're capped at 1 damage, but you can pack 6 in a swarm, with ion turrets and either initiative 3, a named pilot or some missiles. Plus, you've got occasional ion hits giving you an even greater manouvre advantage.

The Aggressor is a lot more mobile than a Y-wing. Yes, it's also more fragile, but 5 hits and agility 2 means even a torpedo or range attack shot isn't going to one-shot it.

Their red moves are kind of irrelevant - playing a turret swarm, it's about not only time-on-target but time-with-actions; with a well-flown broadside turret you should rarely need a red move....which in turn always means a green token is available, and unlike droids it's a true focus not just calculate.

30 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Their red moves are kind of irrelevant

Exactly. I'll rarely need to k-turn, having a side arc. It's all about turns and banks usually. And if you do end up not having a shot, you can take a Lock for future turns or Do A Barrel Roll.

Very occasionally, a k-turn is handy in order to flip your turret to point towards the other side of the board and surprise someone.

8 hours ago, FastWalker said:

On 6/26/2020 at 10:04 AM, Rossetti1828 said:

They are. I've played them enough to know.

Good for you. But don't take this the wrong way. Stats say otherwise. When players are consistently making top cut with Tie Aggressors, then I'll believe you.

Are you sure you're not conflating "viable" with "popular"?

2x Sabers 4x Sienars (198)

×

Sienar Specialist — TIE/ag Aggressor26

Ion Cannon Turret5

Ship Total: 31

Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Sienar Specialist — TIE/ag Aggressor26

Ion Cannon Turret5

Ship Total: 31

Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Sienar Specialist — TIE/ag Aggressor26

Ion Cannon Turret5

Ship Total: 31

Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Sienar Specialist — TIE/ag Aggressor26

Ion Cannon Turret5

Ship Total: 31

Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Saber Squadron Ace — TIE Interceptor36

Crack Shot1

Ship Total: 37

Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Saber Squadron Ace — TIE Interceptor36

Crack Shot1

Ship Total: 37

Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

I play this often. I fear nobody.

The TIE Aggressor is a fighter which makes perfect sense in universe as a craft capable of filling multiple mission roles in a single chassis. Need something shot up with missiles? TIE Aggressor can do it. Cargo vessel needs close escort? TIE Aggressor has two sets of guns, that's twice the fun! Dogfighting to be doing? It's still a TIE, it'll be able to outfly most potential enemy combatants while having a rear-facing turret to further ruin their enemies' day.

Of course, this doesn't translate too well into a 200pts, six obstacle game , as the trade-offs required to allow the craft to do all these things means it isn't as good as a dedicated missile platform, dogfighter or interceptor. I'd like it if there was some way to make it an interesting turret fighter, an Imperial TIE/sf for want of a better term, but I've no idea how to deliver on that while not stepping on the TIE/sf's toes too much.

4 hours ago, alien earth said:

2x Sabers 4x Sienars (198)

I play exactly this squad too, and I usually win.

Now that it's been revealed to The Internet, I'm sure it will be played more often.

On 6/25/2020 at 2:44 AM, Cpt ObVus said:

Talk to me about TIE Aggressors

I mean...sometimes you just wanna shoot backwards. While still only flying TIEs.

34 minutes ago, Rossetti1828 said:

I play exactly this squad too, and I usually win.

Now that it's been revealed to The Internet, I'm sure it will be played more often.

Hey! I played it first 😁

12 minutes ago, alien earth said:

Hey! I played it first 😁

Maybe!

In 2019, the old points meant that I flew 4 Ion Sienars with 2 lowly Alpha Squadrons.

Anyway, it's always fun being the only Aggressor player in the room, seeing the raised eyebrows, and then beating people 🙂

Base stats and dial of the TIE/ag are really good. You can run them naked and they’re solid, just like Torrents or TIE/fo have been in other factions.

28 with Dorsal or 31 with Ion are both fine too. Main issue with them is there isn’t really an Imperial archetype that knows what to do with that little control piece.

But I’d say Proxy Bombers were a sleeper for a year or so before people found them, and the TIE Aggressor is in that same position now. They’re good ships waiting for a squad they fit into.

And it doesn’t help that the amazing Scimitar Bomber is in the faction too.

When you compare it to a TIE/fo or a Torrent, the TIE Aggressor is actually missing out on some critical things. It doesn't have any fancy turnaround maneuvers and it doesn't have blue turns or any tight turns.

Big turns certainly are well-suited to a turret ship, but I don't know if the aggressor really wants to be a turret ship as much as a cheap missile/spam platform. Drop Dorsal by a point and it looks a bit more appealing. Drop the Aggressor by a point and I think we'd start seeing them everywhere.

Ultimately it seems much more like a Scyk to me. Actually pretty decent naked just for its toughness, and if you make further investment worthwhile it could consider an upgrade or two.

Ion missiles should be three points. Dorsal turret should be two. Concussions should probably come down to 5. Homing should be 4.

I'm also personally of the totally-unsubstantiated opinion that cannons should be cheaper in general. Ion should be 4-5. Autoblaster was fine at 2. Tractor should be 1. Maybe keep them at their current prices for 2-primaries just to make the Scyk have a tougher choice but tbh I don't think it's strictly necessary since they bring so little to the table most of the time.

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

When you compare it to a TIE/fo or a Torrent, the TIE Aggressor is actually missing out on some critical things. It doesn't have any fancy turnaround maneuvers and it doesn't have blue turns or any tight turns.

Big turns certainly are well-suited to a turret ship, but I don't know if the aggressor really wants to be a turret ship as much as a cheap missile/spam platform. Drop Dorsal by a point and it looks a bit more appealing. Drop the Aggressor by a point and I think we'd start seeing them everywhere.

Ultimately it seems much more like a Scyk to me. Actually pretty decent naked just for its toughness, and if you make further investment worthwhile it could consider an upgrade or two.

Ion missiles should be three points. Dorsal turret should be two. Concussions should probably come down to 5. Homing should be 4.

I'm also personally of the totally-unsubstantiated opinion that cannons should be cheaper in general. Ion should be 4-5. Autoblaster was fine at 2. Tractor should be 1. Maybe keep them at their current prices for 2-primaries just to make the Scyk have a tougher choice but tbh I don't think it's strictly necessary since they bring so little to the table most of the time.

What do you think of a missile slot & turret slot upgrade that has is range 1-3? It would be unique to them and would be priced specifically for them.

I agree that missile, specifically those mentioned, should be cheaper. Maybe prockets by 1, as well. Maybe.

As for cannons though, Scyk's got cheap enough that ion and tractor going down would be ****. Akhter Kahn has flown four I1 Scyks and two I1 fang to strong success in the GSP Space Jams. If Scyks went up a hair to compensate, I'd be on board, as I have been playing double-tap IGs lately, and it is great fun.

15 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

... but I don't know if the aggressor really wants to be a turret ship as much as a cheap missile/spam platform.

But you got the Tie Bomber for that. I feel is either turret role or bust.

Just now, 5050Saint said:

Maybe prockets by 1, as well. Maybe.

Ehhhh, I don't know. Those have always really punched worth their weight in the tournament data. They usually stay the same or go up by one in my models (same as Barrage Rockets). Not needing the lock is huge, especially for low-initiative ships. It's a one-shot but it's fabulous spike damage.

Really it's the lock-based missiles that should be cheaper. I want just a little more reason to take them on my generic Z-95s, Scyks, and TIE Bombers. Generally Torps are strictly better.

2 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

What do you think of a missile slot & turret slot upgrade that has is range 1-3? It would be unique to them and would be priced specifically for them.

2-dice, sure.

3-dice, 3 charges, sure.

3 dice, always on, I'm in the "never ever ever, please" camp. It's just difficult to balance that across the Y-Wing and the Ghost.

What about a Sloane swarm with Tie Aggressors? What I like to call "Aggressive Sloane". I got 3 list variations containing Tie Reaper, Lambda Shuttle or Decimator. Lots of room to play with. Share with the group your list suggestions.

=== Aggressive Sloane A ===

Scarif Base Pilot (39)
Admiral Sloane (9)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

=== Aggressive Sloane B ===

Colonel Jendon (48)
Jamming Beam (0)
Admiral Sloane (9)
Darth Vader (14)
ST-321 (4)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

=== Aggressive Sloane C ===

Patrol Leader (67)
Admiral Sloane (9)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Sienar Specialist (26)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

7 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

But you got the Tie Bomber for that. I feel is either turret role or bust.

The TIE Bomber is inherently a little more expensive just for its ship ability, extra hp, and extra slots. 8x naked aggressors wouldn't kill the game but 8x naked bombers probably would. I could see the Aggressor at 25, but the Bomber has to stay at 27ish at the cheapest.

Generally I agree though. Dorsal should be two. We'd see it more on the Attack Shuttle if it was. Since the nerf to VTG, Dorsal isn't really a problem anymore; it's another case of a double-nerf where only a single nerf was needed. Sort of like how Iden should be cheaper.