Couldn't find it in the forums so here's my question

Is it possible to dodge weapons with the flame quality? The way I read the rules you can,if you can get out of the "beam", but some other guys disagree. Even when I show them the "dodging auto-fire and area attacks" part on page 193 of the core rulebook. They say that the agility test you make when you're in the "beam" of the flame weapon is your "dodge" test.

So is it you fail your agility test, you burn?

Or you fail your agility test and then your dodge test, you burn?

The "Agility Test" that flamers force the opponent to take can be thought of as the replacement for the Player not having to roll BS. So effectively the player auto-hits aside from the agility test. Flamers can be dodged, too, just as that section says, since the agility test is only to see if you catch on fire, not to avoid the damage.

You basically get three tests here:

One agility test as a passive roll to see if you manage to not get hit without doing anything special

One dodge test as your standard dodge if you spend the reaction (and if you've got enough agility bonus to get out of the zone that's hit - techpriests, I'm looking at you!)

One agility test to see if you catch on fire after having suffered damage

Cifer has pointed it out pretty clearly. p193 of the core book refers to dodging area effect attacks.

Here is the thread you were looking for. You will see a template I made to show who can and can't dodge a flame attack also.

Check this link to the RT forum.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=161&efcid=3&efidt=239892&efpag=0#240069

Just as I tought. Now I at least know I'm not some crazy fool who reads the rules the way he wants them...

So one of those guys placed his question with customer's service and this is their reply:

" You do not get to dodge a flame weapon! Flame weapons are easier to hit with as they fill an area with flame. The targets only make the one Agility test, should they fail they are hit. It does not, however, take a reaction to dodge so they may dodge or parry another attack later in the round or make an agility test even if they do not have a reaction left. "

In my opinion that makes no sense. I can dodge explosions and jump out of the way from a spray of bullets but i can't do the same with a spray of fire...

As I see it now it looks like one guy standing in a torrent of flames waving around matrix style and coming out of it unscathed...

As opposed to the same guy jumping out of the way of the burning inferno

@ ItsUncertainWho: Nice template. I was going to make one myself but this saves me some time

Deynomeas said:

sure? I've never seen a rule that allows you to dodge explosions (like a grenade)

you can dodge a blast attack or a thrown grenade but not an explosion (unless VA)

Whoops... Little bit awkward wording there.

Make that "I can jump out of the way from explosions and dodge a spray of bullets but i can't do the same with a spray of fire..."

Contacting customer service is a silly way to settle things. Its not like you are guarantied a response from the games developers, more like is that you will get some random guy there who might not even know the rules properly. An errata or FaQ is one thing, but a response from customer service seems more like just adopting some random persons house rule. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if you wanted an official ruling it doesn't help much.

From the Dodge entry in the Rogue Trader rulebook:

When Dodging an area effect weapon (such as a flamer), a successful Dodge Test moves the character to the edge of the area of effect, as long as it is no further away than the character’s Agility Bonus in metres.

So just for ***** and giggles I asked the customers service the same question and as fate would have it I got my answer from the same guy. So I reffered to him page 193 of the core rulebook and the rules regarding dodging area attacks in Rogue Trader and he states that those are both wrong.

Apperently the dodge test for flame weapons shouldn't excist and the reason this isn't reflected by the rules is the result of a "typo" and overall bad mojo... So failed agility test= you burn.

He told me that this will be altered in the upcoming errata for which he doesn't know any release date or a guesstimate of that date.

Deynomeas said:

Was it Mr. Martin who answered your questions or someone else?

Deynomeas said:

. And this, boys and girls, is why you don´t, ever, refer rules question to some random customer service person. Also what Graver said.

Yes, it was Mr. Martin who answered the question

Deynomeas said:

Well, if the RAW matters to you, then what he said is the word of God in relation to interpreting it for DH. He is the lead developer now for Dark Heresy since Ross took over DW full time and not some random customer service guy. I didn't think FFG had random customer service folks answering these questions for the RPGs, but then, I never asked one so I never got to see for my self.

Also, bear in mind that while RT and DH are compatible games built off the same core system, they are still separate games and treated as separate by FFG, each having their own developer who has their own vision of where things are to go and how they are to work within that game. Don't forget, there's a lot of other places where RTs rules differ from DHs. They're compatible, but not identical and while that can give you some insight into how ambiguous aspects might work, it's by no means definite.

FWIW I would house rule that someone could use a Dodge test in place of the Agility test if they so desired - there is no logical reason someone would be worse at dodging a flamer than at dodging anyone else (for characters with improved dodge skills).

I can see why you wouldn't want people who arn't trained in dodge to only have a half agility test but I can't see any reason to not let people with +10 / +20 dodge not to be able to use it.

as I interpret the rules (and it goes with what mack martin said)

you do not roll an attack but the target rolls agility (with no bonus for dodge or stuff) instead of the BS test... the roll is just exchanged for another...

if the attack hits... you can try to dodge as normal...you are hit you can try to dodge there is no special rule for flamers that prevents you from dodging and you are taking a normal hit from a normal weapon you can also try to dive for cover but most likely this is not a very good choice because flamers ignore cover

if you fail to dodge or didn't even try and you do get damage you roll agility (again meaning possibly the third time by now) and if you fail this agility roll you are ablaze/on fire

if you have absolutely no BS skill and are fighting against low agi enemies like tech-priests it is the definite weapon of choice... untill the tech-priest stacks enough toughness boni and machine trait armor...

with a low enough agi you are easily hit, you possibly can't even dodge away (can't move far enough with a reaction), have a hard time dodging and have a hard time not be on fire and probably can't put out that fire for quite some time (I suceeded on my WP test for 6 consecutive rounds and failed the agi test to put it out until our AS put out the fire with a blanket)

@ Sirion

You interpret it the same way I do, however Mr. Martin said you don't get too dodge if you get hit.

You fail your agility test, you burn.

I asked him very clearly about it several times asking for an explanation and he kept stating that flamers auto-hit and that the agility test you make is your "dodge" test, but it's not really a dodge. My only interpretation of this is that you're just standing there waving around matrix-style evading a torrent of fire and slapping the flames that get you silly, cause you don't jump aside as it's not a dodge test.

And that looks silly to me... Awesome if that would happen, but still silly because it's not very realistic imo....

Deynomeas said:

The problem you have might not be the lack of a dodge check then. It might be the fact that you locked your self into one interpritation for a successfull agl test instead.

The problem is that flamers both auto hit, remove any bonus you'd normally get for avoiding attacks from dodge mastery AND have special talents for making them even harder to dodge. It's too much for one weapon. And it's obviously not what was intended when the rules were written, no matter how official Mr.Martins interpretation is.

If it's the typical cone flamer seen in movies the auto hit makes sense, but you'd still get to dodge as normal if your AG bonus is enough to get you out of the area. So why faff about with agility tests and cleanse and purify then? The flamer auto hits, that's already way superior to any other weapon and the normal dodge mechanics take care of normal dodging.

Graver said:

You could say it that way.

Raw it still states that you first have to fail your agility and then your dodge, but I could accept that you wouldn't get to dodge when somebody would be able to tell me what that darn agility test does...

If you jump aside It sounds more like a dodge test to me...If you don't, then what in Throne's sake do you do?

Deynomeas said:

From what you have said about the answer you got the agility test simply replaces the dodge (and becomes the new dodge roll). It sounds like you don't like the fact they called it an agility test and not a dodge test, but is the name all that important? Sure they could have written "a dodge test which is always taken at your full agility and ignores all penalties or bonuses from sources such as skills and talents", but that would be silly. Much easier to just call it an agility test.

So its quite simply a dodge that happens to use special rules.

If its balanced is another matter.