My hope's for TTS was (mostly) joking, hence the Salt 100 bit. Mea culpa if it seemed overly salty. Tho that joke aside, I'm not sure it's good for the game or helps speedy play. But that's all a separate discussion, and my feeling is based on anecdotal evidence at best. Slow play is the devil.

I 100% am aware that the gun line is nothing new, it's just amazing they made an addition that makes it even better and more efficient.

The reality is if Iden was 15-25points more expensive she would still be taken and just as good. Game breaking or not, salt or not. That's not good game design. A character shouldn't be 20% off on costing.

Oh he's enjoying Iden. The monster (I know he'll read this) heh

I guess the issue isn't just about enjoyable tho. It's about health of the game and design. Legion seems to have so many of the issues of Xwing 1.0. Kinda worrying.

4 hours ago, Memorare said:

My hope's for TTS was (mostly) joking, hence the Salt 100 bit. Mea culpa if it seemed overly salty. Tho that joke aside, I'm not sure it's good for the game or helps speedy play. But that's all a separate discussion, and my feeling is based on anecdotal evidence at best. Slow play is the devil.

I 100% am aware that the gun line is nothing new, it's just amazing they made an addition that makes it even better and more efficient.

The reality is if Iden was 15-25points more expensive she would still be taken and just as good. Game breaking or not, salt or not. That's not good game design. A character shouldn't be 20% off on costing.

Oh he's enjoying Iden. The monster (I know he'll read this) heh

I guess the issue isn't just about enjoyable tho. It's about health of the game and design. Legion seems to have so many of the issues of Xwing 1.0. Kinda worrying.

I really don't understand what you're talking about. Slow-play doesn't happen because of or more on TTS. TTS games are significantly shorter. No one who has ever stated "TTS doesn't count" has ever been able to give a legitimate reason that can't be shot down with the most basic reasoning skills. The reality is that it boils down to the fact that they don't like it and possibly their limited experience (matched with their biases) doesn't match what the larger sample size of TTS states (people often don't like statistics and actual numbers for this exact reason).

4 hours ago, Memorare said:

The reality is if Iden was 15-25points more expensive she would still be taken and just as good. Game breaking or not, salt or not. That's not good game design. A character shouldn't be 20% off on costing.

What reality are you thinking of? I'm finding it hard to get her into some of my lists at 130, I even drop her droid in some lists to save points. At 15-25 more she'd never be used.

Again I ask you why do you think she needs such an increase? She's 12 more points than a unit of death troopers, shoots 2r 1b 2w compaired to their 2r 4b 1w, her one and two pips are similar to death troopers usung the gernade launcher, which they can do every turn they're in range. I'll grant you her 3 pip is good, but that's covered by her higher points cost. Imperial gunlines with multiple death trooper lists aren't unheard of, if your not playing the mission and on an open field of course you're going to loose to it.

7 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

I understand if you don't like using TTS (I don't like playing online too much either), nobody forces you to. But wishing that it gets deleted and hence taking it away from others who are enjoying it is plain being a ****.

I understand during the pandemic, it was the only way for a lot of people to play the game, but it is not something sanctioned by FFG/Disney. TTS is piracy. If FFG/Disney ever comes out and endorses the game, then a different perspective will be required.

<ignore>

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

I really don't understand what you're talking about. Slow-play doesn't happen because of or more on TTS. TTS games are significantly shorter. No one who has ever stated "TTS doesn't count" has ever been able to give a legitimate reason that can't be shot down with the most basic reasoning skills. The reality is that it boils down to the fact that they don't like it and possibly their limited experience (matched with their biases) doesn't match what the larger sample size of TTS states (people often don't like statistics and actual numbers for this exact reason).

You can't see where others are coming from, so at this point it is an agree to disagree scenario. But your opinion is just that, an opinion.

On 7/8/2020 at 6:04 AM, arnoldrew said:

I really don't understand what you're talking about. Slow-play doesn't happen because of or more on TTS. TTS games are significantly shorter. No one who has ever stated "TTS doesn't count" has ever been able to give a legitimate reason that can't be shot down with the most basic reasoning skills. The reality is that it boils down to the fact that they don't like it and possibly their limited experience (matched with their biases) doesn't match what the larger sample size of TTS states (people often don't like statistics and actual numbers for this exact reason).

.............

Very interesting to see the amount of dislike for TTS. I would never play on it since you know miniature game, but I cannot seen now it is not helpful to the community covid or no.

I come from weeb background so I guess I have a different point of view. Anything to expand the fanbase is good, no matter how shite it is. I have games that I will never play the sequel to (**** I am still waiting for like 3 Fire Emblems!!). So if TTS can keep this game growing I will take that devil's bargain every time.

On 7/8/2020 at 3:44 AM, Memorare said:

It's about health of the game and design. Legion seems to have so many of the issues of Xwing 1.0. Kinda worrying.

Preach! The problem with Legion is that a lot of the Xwing 1.0 issues seemed to have been with the game at start (with others creeping in). Putting points on the cards and refusing to have frequent updates are the original sins of the game. Throw in some crazy power creep and troubling meta signs and it really does feel like Legion will just make every mistake X-wing has done until they have to reboot.

Is it fair to continue to compare this game to X-wing? Properly not. But man is it hard not complain about Legion when all of these issues feel like they should have easily been avoided.

@RyantheFett I know I really enjoy TTS for xwing. I haven’t done legion on it (don’t even know what module is needed). My only beef with tts is when folks know what’s coming they “solve” the new units as good or bad and what not before any of us get to play with them. At least in xwing they don’t drop costs until physical product is here and then we get to find out.

Maybe if they just hid costs on previews for Legion it would be better?

As far as the fact that this game is made by the same publishers as xwing, I think the comparison is fair. There are even designers who have worked on both. Legion is making some of the same mistakes as xwing: some units are both for an upgrade card (less so now that card pack is out) and some units are just flat out better than the older ones

FFG Needs to have more frequent point changes. Once a year is ridiculous. One wrong change and we have a year's broken game.

32 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

My only beef with tts is when folks know what’s coming they “solve” the new units as good or bad and what not before any of us get to play with them. At least in xwing they don’t drop costs until physical product is here and then we get to find out.

Maybe if they just hid costs on previews for Legion it would be better?

As far as the fact that this game is made by the same publishers as xwing, I think the comparison is fair. There are even designers who have worked on both. Legion is making some of the same mistakes as xwing: some units are both for an upgrade card (less so now that card pack is out) and some units are just flat out better than the older ones

What an interesting take on the matter. Never really thought about the fact that the meta may be already set for the next two months if you don't play TTS. Listen to any of the podcast and everything is solved and they are ready for the next wave. Hiding points may work.............. or you know never putting points on cards since they may change in the future!!!!!

As for upgrade cards I really thought about throwing that in there as a positive, but I do not remember if X-wing did it first lol.

4 minutes ago, Thraug said:

FFG Needs to have more frequent point changes. Once a year is ridiculous. One wrong change and we have a year's broken game.

For the life of me I will never understand their thought process on points and their reluctance to do any adjustments. The 6 months for Xwing 2.0 just seems right. And I am not saying huge changes every time, just a few points on one or two units would do wonders. The poor Airspeeder comes to mind and the horror show of the tauntaun/shores................. rr maybe the crazy power keep is what keeping those units in check lol.

The pdf points change also feels like a real rush job to fix an issue they never thought they would have? I know FFG hates their app, but I feel like a middle ground could have been found (I mean the points are online now anyway)? Maybe support the community sites like Tabletop Admiral? Pretty sure almost everyone uses sites like that anyway, FFG should show them some love.

Just worrying to not see Legion get support it deserves and looking closer to Armada or X-wing 1.0.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

My only beef with tts is when folks know what’s coming they “solve” the new units as good or bad and what not before any of us get to play with them.

Honestly I don't understand why this is an issue. Either you care what's good, and now you know what you should or should not buy, or you don't care just want to use what you like, in which case why does it matter what is and isn't "meta"?

1 hour ago, Thraug said:

FFG Needs to have more frequent point changes. Once a year is ridiculous. One wrong change and we have a year's broken game.

This is absolutely true. They're already doing two RRG updates per year, why not do points changes in both updates? Now, I do feel that rules changes to bring units more into line are generally preferable, but sometimes that's just not an option/less straightforward that just changing the points value.

25 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Honestly I don't understand why this is an issue. Either you care what's good, and now you know what you should or should not buy, or you don't care just want to use what you like, in which case why does it matter what is and isn't "meta"?

I guess for me it’s a matter of prioritization — in the case of “I like this, AND the experts decide it’s good”, you basically have to get it immediately on release or else you won’t have one at all (source: the units I mentioned before out of stock in perpetuity).

If it’s something I don’t want to paint then I flat out won’t buy it, and if it goes out of stock I don’t care.

OTOH, if “the experts” say “oh that unit is garbage” then I can pick it up either on sale, or when I have bandwidth in my painting queue to go directly to putting it on the paint table.

If the experts don’t get points until release, my decision is based more on my own queue ability right now plus desire, as opposed to the “get now or forever give up the rights to it” because few would rush to buy max quantities of an untested or unknown thing.

1 hour ago, Lochlan said:

This is absolutely true. They're already doing two RRG updates per year, why not do points changes in both updates? Now, I do feel that rules changes to bring units more into line are generally preferable, but sometimes that's just not an option/less straightforward that just changing the points value.

This, they did a good job nerfing shoretroopes and tauntauns with the last update. Now if only we could get some points adjustments to the under preforming units, looking at you dewback, and something else for the t-47...

Just a friendly reminder for everyone, legion has only been out for about 2.25 years, and the last 6 months have been mostly a wash do to covid 19. I wouldn’t say they’ve done a bad job, in that time period they have had at least 5 rule reference updates, one major point change, and a significant los and tournament rule update.

40 minutes ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

Just a friendly reminder for everyone, legion has only been out for about 2.25 years, and the last 6 months have been mostly a wash do to covid 19. I wouldn’t say they’ve done a bad job, in that time period they have had at least 5 rule reference updates, one major point change, and a significant los and tournament rule update.

Thing is most of these issues have nothing to do with covid. Rebalances and such... you can do that from your couch.

I wish they had thought of the point problems before printing cards. I hate the changes in RRG. I think it's sloppy and poorly thought out. I don't like changing points twice a year like they do in X-wing. It's too much for helping new players who are trying to learn to keep up with.

I don't have a problem with Iden. I think the Marksman is something they really need to be careful with, or you'll get 5-8 crit attacks coming from her which will kill anything in the game at this point. Especially moving forward with newer units.

8 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I guess for me it’s a matter of prioritization — in the case of “I like this, AND the experts decide it’s good”, you basically have to get it immediately on release or else you won’t have one at all (source: the units I mentioned before out of stock in perpetuity).

If it’s something I don’t want to paint then I flat out won’t buy it, and if it goes out of stock I don’t care.

OTOH, if “the experts” say “oh that unit is garbage” then I can pick it up either on sale, or when I have bandwidth in my painting queue to go directly to putting it on the paint table.

If the experts don’t get points until release, my decision is based more on my own queue ability right now plus desire, as opposed to the “get now or forever give up the rights to it” because few would rush to buy max quantities of an untested or unknown thing.

So supply shortage is a real pain and FFG is absolutely terrible at it with every ... single ... game ...

Accepting we can't change that, I don't fully understand your argument. Is it now a good thing, that you know beforehands what's good (= out of stock fast) or not? Because now we know months in advance what will probably be good and can arrange our preorders around it (I absolutely do!). If we only knew on release date, you'd have like 1-2 weeks to figure out if the unit is good (= out of stock fast). The outcome would be quite the same only you'd have to think faster about it and probably either miss out on strong units or buy too many weak units that look strong on the first few weeks ...

6 hours ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

Just a friendly reminder for everyone, legion has only been out for about 2.25 years, and the last 6 months have been mostly a wash do to covid 19. I wouldn’t say they’ve done a bad job, in that time period they have had at least 5 rule reference updates, one major point change, and a significant los and tournament rule update.

I also think Legion is in a good spot right now. With the coming releases, all factions are really able to compete. Yes there is a power creep and yes, some units are better or worse than others. They are addressing that.

5 hours ago, Tirion said:

Thing is most of these issues have nothing to do with covid. Rebalances and such... you can do that from your couch.

Do you really think that balancing/rebalancing is that easy? On what base do you decide what's to change and how much you do without doing too much? ****, this thread is going for 4 pages and we can't agree on whether Iden is OP or just OK. I'm very glad that the designers don't rush such things and hit us with changes every other week. It takes time and a lot of data - preferred tournament data from different regions (which are very limited in covid times) to make a sound decision.

Like it or not, Invader League is the only useable data we/they have at the moment. Everything else is just a few rants of people who like to complain about stuff online 😉 .

43 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I wish they had thought of the point problems before printing cards. I hate the changes in RRG. I think it's sloppy and poorly thought out. I don't like changing points twice a year like they do in X-wing. It's too much for helping new players who are trying to learn to keep up with.

I was so sad that they didn't choose the X-Wing 2.0 approach on Legion. I do think it is ok to have printed values for casuals who just get the boxes and don't want to check online for all the latest changes al the time (I even have a player in my community who refuses to use tools to build his lists ...). But a better platform would help. Though there are multiply fanbased builders that are reeealllly good. So it's not a big issue for me. It is for some non english speaking players though, also because FFG is terrible at doing translations of everything within reasonably time (the latest german RRG is version 1.5 which was like 1.5 years ago).

5-8 crits in a single atrack from Iden requires either a ton of luck or a lot of work to set up. If you can provide her with 5+ aim tokens, you deserve that attack.

18 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

Do you really think that balancing/rebalancing is that easy? On what base do you decide what's to change and how much you do without doing too much? ****, this thread is going for 4 pages and we can't agree on whether Iden is OP or just OK. I'm very glad that the designers don't rush such things and hit us with changes every other week. It takes time and a lot of data - preferred tournament data from different regions (which are very limited in covid times) to make a sound decision.

Like it or not, Invader League is the only useable data we/they have at the moment. Everything else is just a few rants of people who like to complain about stuff online 😉

I didn't say every other week. The idea was twice a year a la x wing....... I'm very glad they don't rush things every two weeks as well.... What made you think I did?

Don't recall saying rebalancing was easy where did you read that? As to what you base it on you base it on the 6 months of data pre covid and through games from playtesters and themselves now whether in person following the mandates of their state or tts..... Same way as always.... I don't see why rebalancing is currently not an option.

7 hours ago, costi said:

5-8 crits in a single atrack from Iden requires either a ton of luck or a lot of work to set up. If you can provide her with 5+ aim tokens, you deserve that attack.

She can get 4 on the turn she plays Tactical Strike with Offensive Push. 4 Aims with Marksman is "fun".

1 hour ago, Memorare said:

She can get 4 on the turn she plays Tactical Strike with Offensive Push. 4 Aims with Marksman is "fun".

Offensive Push only works for one move, so that would only yield 3 aims. Granted she could also have Hunter which could get her to 4, but that's situational.

2 hours ago, Memorare said:

She can get 4 on the turn she plays Tactical Strike with Offensive Push. 4 Aims with Marksman is "fun".

Bossk can get so many aim tokens on his Lying in wait turn he is practically guaranteed 5 crits and I don't see people screaming OP.

Personally I think the difference in this scenario is that Marksman removes the need to roll. Its probably one of my least favorite keywords as it can remove the randomness of rolling. It's the same issue I have with lots of the new keywords, they are just better than the old ones. Again it feels very Xwing 1.0.

4 hours ago, Memorare said:

Personally I think the difference in this scenario is that Marksman removes the need to roll. Its probably one of my least favorite keywords as it can remove the randomness of rolling. It's the same issue I have with lots of the new keywords, they are just better than the old ones. Again it feels very Xwing 1.0.

Gotta sell the less iconic units and characters you know...

(though I would have bought Cassian + K2 regardless because of the movie)