18 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Exceeding the WT always inflicts a Critical Injury. Most of them are quite mild unless you do it with a Vicious weapon (or planetary scale weapon if using the optional +50) or have lots of Lethal Blows. Still, there is always some risk to using "lethal" damage to down an opponent. If you just want them knocked out, use Sun Setting and/or Stun and go for exceeding the ST.

Well, obviously if you're trying to take knock somebody out with a fully upgraded, extra-vicious lightsaber or Disintegrator, and choose to use Lethal Blows on top of that, you're not really trying to knock somebody out.

It would seem that applying "damage" to Strain first would severely limit the use of Strain based Talents. I can see it also threatening PCs ability to run away, as they need Strain to take the 2 Strain for an extra maneuver so they can move twice and still take an action.

Sure, it might be more realistic for either side to run/surrender after a single exchange of shots, but I question if it would be more fun (although certainly that is a personal determination).

To me, Strain is stress, a build-up of doubts and anxieties and fatigue. One can become stressed-out, even faint from an overdose of stress and overexertion (going over Strain Threshold). Just as in the books.

Wounds. I wonder why they are called such. To my own interpretation of the word, a slight nick in my finger while peeling potatoes is 'a wound'. Not a terrible one, but a wound nonetheless. Getting a twohanded sword sliced across the belly and having organs drop out is also 'a wound'. Of course, this one is more alarming, but still a single wound. So when in the game a character suffers 6 wounds... is that six cuts or one rather large one (rethoric question, don't answer)? The game mechanic of Wounds serves its purpose the same as hitpoints in other systems. They represent minor cuts and bruises, nicks and superficial lacerations. Stuff that isn't too bad, and therefor doesn't actually hinder the character in any way, other than being a depletable resource showing the character is closer to defeat. But no penalties of any kind yet. Of course, "Wounds" is easier to say and remember. If they had called it your characters' "Minor Cuts, Lacerations, Burns, Injuries and Bruises Threshold", nobody would have been able to say that with a straight face for the entire evening.

Then there are Critical Injuries. This is what I would call "Wounds" (Critical Wounds...). They have their effects, some minor, some major. Some temporary, others permanent. So, to my interpretation, a character that suffers Wounds is barely hit, until that Critical Injury comes along, and the character is actually hurt. Even if the injury itself has a very minor effect that lasts for but one round, the lingering injury remains, and shows the damage to one's well-being as more and more of these lingering injuries - even if they don't have an immediate effect going on - cumulatively increase the possible severity of more Critical Injury rolls.

On to the topic. Cinematic damage to characters might be narrated according to what the terms and their numbers might be interpreted as. Getting hit for 9 Wounds damage after Soak, but not causing a critical hit, might be seen as "You are hit squarely in the chest. You feel the hot blaster bolt impact your chest armor and as it burns, you notice the stench of scorched hair and flesh. That will leave a chest-wide nasty blister or two for a couple of days. 9 Wounds."

Even though one might stress-out from being hit in the chest, I wouldn't use Strain to mitigate this. Strain wasn't meant to, if I interpret the game system correctly. More often than not, you would cause your own Strain. You choose to take an extra Maneuver. You choose to use that Talent. You choose to burn through those Dark Side Pips to get that success on a Force Power check. Sure, some yokel might Scathe you into a bit of Strain and an Obligation might make your character feel a bit... paranoid today, but like I said, Strain is a resource that, in my personal experience ever since Edge of the Empire came out, you burn through yourself more than anything. It's why Strain is so easy to recover (after each encounter, completely after a good night's rest, with several different Talents, as a bonus from other healing activities, etc.). And it's why Grit seems only half the Talent compared to Toughened, only +1 Strain Threshold, as opposed to +2 Wound Threshold. Like others said, when you increase the Strain suffering by having damage affect Strain first, Wounds later, you deny people a lot of choices for which they need their Strain Threshold.

Then there is the miracle cure; a Stimpack. Jam it in there, press the release. 5 Wounds restored (or less for subsequent ones, of course). "All of a sudden that chest wound is gone! (Partially.)" Actually, no. This is, again, a narrative interpretation. The stimpack is a stimulant, a painkiller. It makes you ignore that blistered chest from my example earlier. The chest is still hurt, you just don't feel it as much anymore. Which means it will take you longer to actually feel your body has been manhandled enough to succumb to those wounds. A narrative interpretation again, as opposed to the RAW upping-and-downing of a Strain and Wound total in relation to your Strain and Wound Thresholds. I don't know, maybe a stimpack should have had a temporary effect, "adding 5 Temporary Wound Threshold" or something. Once it wears off, your body realises the 'true hurt and damage' and then gives up. But that choice hadn't been made. So we need to either change it in our own games as a house rule, or interpret it as it is.

All in all, I think there is little wrong with the system as it is. You can suffer Critical Injuries even if your Wound Threshold hasn't been exceeded, you suffer one when it is. All in all your characters are still very hard to kill, even if some are easy to get down and out. If anything, I wouldn't say the Wounds system is a problem, it's more the abundance of Soak. "You're hit for 10 damage" "Okay, Wrrruulf has Brawn 5 and heavy combat armor for another 4 Soak, so only 1 Wound gets through" ...

3 hours ago, Xcapobl said:

To me, Strain is stress, a build-up of doubts and anxieties and fatigue. One can become stressed-out, even faint from an overdose of stress and overexertion (going over Strain Threshold). Just as in the books.

Wounds. I wonder why they are called such. To my own interpretation of the word, a slight nick in my finger while peeling potatoes is 'a wound'. Not a terrible one, but a wound nonetheless. Getting a twohanded sword sliced across the belly and having organs drop out is also 'a wound'. Of course, this one is more alarming, but still a single wound. So when in the game a character suffers 6 wounds... is that six cuts or one rather large one (rethoric question, don't answer)? The game mechanic of Wounds serves its purpose the same as hitpoints in other systems. They represent minor cuts and bruises, nicks and superficial lacerations. Stuff that isn't too bad, and therefor doesn't actually hinder the character in any way, other than being a depletable resource showing the character is closer to defeat. But no penalties of any kind yet. Of course, "Wounds" is easier to say and remember. If they had called it your characters' "Minor Cuts, Lacerations, Burns, Injuries and Bruises Threshold", nobody would have been able to say that with a straight face for the entire evening.

Then there are Critical Injuries. This is what I would call "Wounds" (Critical Wounds...). They have their effects, some minor, some major. Some temporary, others permanent. So, to my interpretation, a character that suffers Wounds is barely hit, until that Critical Injury comes along, and the character is actually hurt. Even if the injury itself has a very minor effect that lasts for but one round, the lingering injury remains, and shows the damage to one's well-being as more and more of these lingering injuries - even if they don't have an immediate effect going on - cumulatively increase the possible severity of more Critical Injury rolls.

On to the topic. Cinematic damage to characters might be narrated according to what the terms and their numbers might be interpreted as. Getting hit for 9 Wounds damage after Soak, but not causing a critical hit, might be seen as "You are hit squarely in the chest. You feel the hot blaster bolt impact your chest armor and as it burns, you notice the stench of scorched hair and flesh. That will leave a chest-wide nasty blister or two for a couple of days. 9 Wounds."

Even though one might stress-out from being hit in the chest, I wouldn't use Strain to mitigate this. Strain wasn't meant to, if I interpret the game system correctly. More often than not, you would cause your own Strain. You choose to take an extra Maneuver. You choose to use that Talent. You choose to burn through those Dark Side Pips to get that success on a Force Power check. Sure, some yokel might Scathe you into a bit of Strain and an Obligation might make your character feel a bit... paranoid today, but like I said, Strain is a resource that, in my personal experience ever since Edge of the Empire came out, you burn through yourself more than anything. It's why Strain is so easy to recover (after each encounter, completely after a good night's rest, with several different Talents, as a bonus from other healing activities, etc.). And it's why Grit seems only half the Talent compared to Toughened, only +1 Strain Threshold, as opposed to +2 Wound Threshold. Like others said, when you increase the Strain suffering by having damage affect Strain first, Wounds later, you deny people a lot of choices for which they need their Strain Threshold.

Then there is the miracle cure; a Stimpack. Jam it in there, press the release. 5 Wounds restored (or less for subsequent ones, of course). "All of a sudden that chest wound is gone! (Partially.)" Actually, no. This is, again, a narrative interpretation. The stimpack is a stimulant, a painkiller. It makes you ignore that blistered chest from my example earlier. The chest is still hurt, you just don't feel it as much anymore. Which means it will take you longer to actually feel your body has been manhandled enough to succumb to those wounds. A narrative interpretation again, as opposed to the RAW upping-and-downing of a Strain and Wound total in relation to your Strain and Wound Thresholds. I don't know, maybe a stimpack should have had a temporary effect, "adding 5 Temporary Wound Threshold" or something. Once it wears off, your body realises the 'true hurt and damage' and then gives up. But that choice hadn't been made. So we need to either change it in our own games as a house rule, or interpret it as it is.

All in all, I think there is little wrong with the system as it is. You can suffer Critical Injuries even if your Wound Threshold hasn't been exceeded, you suffer one when it is. All in all your characters are still very hard to kill, even if some are easy to get down and out. If anything, I wouldn't say the Wounds system is a problem, it's more the abundance of Soak. "You're hit for 10 damage" "Okay, Wrrruulf has Brawn 5 and heavy combat armor for another 4 Soak, so only 1 Wound gets through" ...

A stimpack is more than just painkillers. It also contains Bacta, which actually speeds healing. This is what’s seals those minor cuts so quickly, healing the wound damage.

On 6/13/2020 at 5:15 AM, AceSolo5 said:

Thanks for the clarification Archlyte... that makes perfect sense now!

I always have given players setback dice in the past whenever they've suffered Wound damage... However, my players have an uncanny knack of rolling blanks whenever I dish out the black dice so it never seems to make a lot of difference to them 😬 I definitely think I'll be trying this when we can get to play again.

One thing I might do though is to change Stims so that they recover strain rather than wounds (always thought that was a bit odd... GM: "You take 5 wounds as the blaster bolt leaves a searing in your abdomen", PC: "Ok... I'll apply a Stim & recover 5 wounds", GM: "That nasty burn you just got suddenly disappears", GM groans inside).

So... I'll allow the Stim to recover 5 strain for the first application (which makes more sense to me as it always felt like some kind of adrenal booster). Players can continue to use further Stims to recover more strain (using the depreciating recovery as in the rules) however, any further use of a Stim after the first will incur a setback dice to all actions (so, 2nd stim... 1 setback, 3rd Stim... 2 setback) as the increased levels of adrenaline in their system starts to make them more & more edgy which will affect their decision making and physical actions.

Any actual wound damage taken, from either critical hits or exceeding strain threshold will need proper medical attention.

You know that's probably something I should do too is look at stims for Strain since the usage is so much higher. I'll have to figure that one out so that Advantages and Stims don't combine to simply make Strain loss negligible.

Warning: Clunk Ahead

I changed the table from Zero Strain to Strain Threshold Criticals. When a character hits zero strain threshold this table gets a roll, and the character has to act according to what is indicated. Attack, Forced to Move, and Heroic Opportunity occur as Out of Turn Incidentals and represent the pressure of the situation on the Character.

Fear is obviously a controversial thing as many players are unwilling to give up the pure power fantasy and have the character act out of fear. Force users can use the optional reaction to fear that is in the book and gain conflict. Also this chart is mainly designed around Ranged Combat but when a character hits 0 Strain in Melee/Brawl situations you can still use it but Suppressed and Frozen become moments of having your bell rung or disorientation.

I have never been a fan of "Magical Instantaneous Healing" so I am with you on that wounds thing.

Would you make wound healing be a slow thing? Like they apply a stim with Bacta and they get wound threshold back over time? I see that you said it would take proper medical attention, which I like because it would make Medical Skill be more significant.

On 8/19/2020 at 6:59 PM, RickInVA said:

It would seem that applying "damage" to Strain first would severely limit the use of Strain based Talents. I can see it also threatening PCs ability to run away, as they need Strain to take the 2 Strain for an extra maneuver so they can move twice and still take an action.

Sure, it might be more realistic for either side to run/surrender after a single exchange of shots, but I question if it would be more fun (although certainly that is a personal determination).

It does actually do that (limit Talents) but I don't like to have Talents responsible for a lot of power creep, and more than that I get tired of the players using Strain every round in the early part of combat as it becomes very stale. Yes, it does make it have a different kind of death spiral in RaW (as RaW use of strain in early rounds leads to later rounds where they cannot have 2 Maneuvers and 1 Action automatically as they are wont to do in rounds 1-5)

This method is also designed to make the combat feel more cinematic by not having that D&D tree chopping DPS-down the enemy style combat.

The heroes of your game suffer near misses and pressure to move or get cover using this method more often than not. I also allow them to use Destiny points to recover Strain, and when they zero-out I let them make a role on the relevant combat skill to recover strain to simulate their training and experience in that type of combat. My players have learned to be aware of any cover in any situation that feels dangerous and they don't have a desire to eat blaster fire anymore, as RaW combat felt like they were operating on a big cushion of points. In my combat they start getting hurt in the Strain first usually and this seems to convey their peril better somehow.

Also the PCs can exchange their action for a maneuver if they wish to get away, unless you mean getting away by running faster than your pursuer. In most cases the PCs will have obstacles to use to get away and delay their pursuers, but in the case of characters trying to get away on a featureless flat area then I agree with what you said.

On 8/20/2020 at 3:00 AM, Xcapobl said:

To me, Strain is stress, a build-up of doubts and anxieties and fatigue. One can become stressed-out, even faint from an overdose of stress and overexertion (going over Strain Threshold). Just as in the books.

Wounds. I wonder why they are called such. To my own interpretation of the word, a slight nick in my finger while peeling potatoes is 'a wound'. Not a terrible one, but a wound nonetheless. Getting a twohanded sword sliced across the belly and having organs drop out is also 'a wound'. Of course, this one is more alarming, but still a single wound. So when in the game a character suffers 6 wounds... is that six cuts or one rather large one (rethoric question, don't answer)? The game mechanic of Wounds serves its purpose the same as hitpoints in other systems. They represent minor cuts and bruises, nicks and superficial lacerations. Stuff that isn't too bad, and therefor doesn't actually hinder the character in any way, other than being a depletable resource showing the character is closer to defeat. But no penalties of any kind yet. Of course, "Wounds" is easier to say and remember. If they had called it your characters' "Minor Cuts, Lacerations, Burns, Injuries and Bruises Threshold", nobody would have been able to say that with a straight face for the entire evening.

Then there are Critical Injuries. This is what I would call "Wounds" (Critical Wounds...). They have their effects, some minor, some major. Some temporary, others permanent. So, to my interpretation, a character that suffers Wounds is barely hit, until that Critical Injury comes along, and the character is actually hurt. Even if the injury itself has a very minor effect that lasts for but one round, the lingering injury remains, and shows the damage to one's well-being as more and more of these lingering injuries - even if they don't have an immediate effect going on - cumulatively increase the possible severity of more Critical Injury rolls.

On to the topic. Cinematic damage to characters might be narrated according to what the terms and their numbers might be interpreted as. Getting hit for 9 Wounds damage after Soak, but not causing a critical hit, might be seen as "You are hit squarely in the chest. You feel the hot blaster bolt impact your chest armor and as it burns, you notice the stench of scorched hair and flesh. That will leave a chest-wide nasty blister or two for a couple of days. 9 Wounds."

Even though one might stress-out from being hit in the chest, I wouldn't use Strain to mitigate this. Strain wasn't meant to, if I interpret the game system correctly. More often than not, you would cause your own Strain. You choose to take an extra Maneuver. You choose to use that Talent. You choose to burn through those Dark Side Pips to get that success on a Force Power check. Sure, some yokel might Scathe you into a bit of Strain and an Obligation might make your character feel a bit... paranoid today, but like I said, Strain is a resource that, in my personal experience ever since Edge of the Empire came out, you burn through yourself more than anything. It's why Strain is so easy to recover (after each encounter, completely after a good night's rest, with several different Talents, as a bonus from other healing activities, etc.). And it's why Grit seems only half the Talent compared to Toughened, only +1 Strain Threshold, as opposed to +2 Wound Threshold. Like others said, when you increase the Strain suffering by having damage affect Strain first, Wounds later, you deny people a lot of choices for which they need their Strain Threshold.

Then there is the miracle cure; a Stimpack. Jam it in there, press the release. 5 Wounds restored (or less for subsequent ones, of course). "All of a sudden that chest wound is gone! (Partially.)" Actually, no. This is, again, a narrative interpretation. The stimpack is a stimulant, a painkiller. It makes you ignore that blistered chest from my example earlier. The chest is still hurt, you just don't feel it as much anymore. Which means it will take you longer to actually feel your body has been manhandled enough to succumb to those wounds. A narrative interpretation again, as opposed to the RAW upping-and-downing of a Strain and Wound total in relation to your Strain and Wound Thresholds. I don't know, maybe a stimpack should have had a temporary effect, "adding 5 Temporary Wound Threshold" or something. Once it wears off, your body realises the 'true hurt and damage' and then gives up. But that choice hadn't been made. So we need to either change it in our own games as a house rule, or interpret it as it is.

All in all, I think there is little wrong with the system as it is. You can suffer Critical Injuries even if your Wound Threshold hasn't been exceeded, you suffer one when it is. All in all your characters are still very hard to kill, even if some are easy to get down and out. If anything, I wouldn't say the Wounds system is a problem, it's more the abundance of Soak. "You're hit for 10 damage" "Okay, Wrrruulf has Brawn 5 and heavy combat armor for another 4 Soak, so only 1 Wound gets through" ...

It works fine, I agree and if you like it then I say use it the way it is and I think that's great. I just started to notice some rhythms developing in the way players saw combat and it didn't match what I wanted. I like your descriptions of wounds.

I am purposely denying them those choices though and that is working as intended not something I miscalculated. This option is something that came about because of how I saw RaW working in practice. Thanks for weighing and I really likeyour descriptions of wounds and how you handle them.

3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

It does actually do that (limit Talents) but I don't like to have Talents responsible for a lot of power creep, and more than that I get tired of the players using Strain every round in the early part of combat as it becomes very stale. Yes, it does make it have a different kind of death spiral in RaW (as RaW use of strain in early rounds leads to later rounds where they cannot have 2 Maneuvers and 1 Action automatically as they are wont to do in rounds 1-5)

This method is also designed to make the combat feel more cinematic by not having that D&D tree chopping DPS-down the enemy style combat.

The heroes of your game suffer near misses and pressure to move or get cover using this method more often than not. I also allow them to use Destiny points to recover Strain, and when they zero-out I let them make a role on the relevant combat skill to recover strain to simulate their training and experience in that type of combat. My players have learned to be aware of any cover in any situation that feels dangerous and they don't have a desire to eat blaster fire anymore, as RaW combat felt like they were operating on a big cushion of points. In my combat they start getting hurt in the Strain first usually and this seems to convey their peril better somehow.

Also the PCs can exchange their action for a maneuver if they wish to get away, unless you mean getting away by running faster than your pursuer. In most cases the PCs will have obstacles to use to get away and delay their pursuers, but in the case of characters trying to get away on a featureless flat area then I agree with what you said.

Fair enough. Not trying to pigeon hole you or your players, but for clarification that I am correctly viewing what you are accomplishing, it seems that you prefer a lower powered game, where the PCs are not significantly above the opposition?

8 hours ago, RickInVA said:

Fair enough. Not trying to pigeon hole you or your players, but for clarification that I am correctly viewing what you are accomplishing, it seems that you prefer a lower powered game, where the PCs are not significantly above the opposition?

Hi Rick,

Yeah I would say your description is accurate but I have a group who are in alignment with my goals so we do not have friction from it really. I think that the average RaW player would probably see it as restricting as it does not flow in the same way as the original game. I think Jay/FFG designed this game to compete with 5e D&D and added Story Game narrative components because that was the way the wind was blowing in games. When I found this game I was in a Story Game mode and playing things like Fate, but I have slowly become less and less enamored with the RaW game while still enjoying the Narrative Dice.

I also use something called Combat as War instead of Combat as Sport. If you are familiar with the OSR then these things are familiar to you, but basically Combat as War means combat is not designed to be fair, but is instead supposed to be dangerous. CaW also is designed to have combat be a problem solving situation as much as a tactical situation, so if faced with a foe the GM has telegraphed as superior, the Pcs either have to find a way to even the odds or to retreat.

I typically use the Minion/Rival/Nemesis system the same way but because minions are dangerous in larger groups I will often use them en masse. I try not to give them the impression that they are fighting mooks/minions but sometimes it happens.

I originally came up with doing combat this way because I felt the RaW combat didn't feel like the movies. Now though I think I do it this way more because of the aesthetics like you said.

On 6/12/2020 at 2:09 AM, Archlyte said:

Something I came up with about 5 or 6 months ago and it seems to be working well.

My Problem: Characters are blaster bolt pincushions and get shot and stabbed a lot while still running around thanks to chronic use of Stimpaks. Description makes the PCs sound like they are absorbing crazy amounts of damage, which outside of heavily armored characters doesn't feel very much like classic movie Star Wars to me.

My Solution: I decided that all straight damage results that do not indicate a Critical Hit go to Strain first , and is described as near misses and other hair raising close calls. Wound Threshold describes only actual physical damage to the character, and such damage is only taken from an attack that is deemed a Critical Hit, or damage that spills over from Strain pool into Wound Threshold pool of points (Soak is only used once per hit). Stimpaks are used for actual wounds.

Reaching 0 Strain or below does not Down a character, but instead it results in a check for the character to see if they have retreated, been pinned down, succumbed to fear, or otherwise decide that this tactic isn't working. This makes it so that the characters are often moving and not staying in static, D&D style chopping-trees fights.

Checks to regain Strain can occur in times other than at the end of the scene/encounter. If the character hits 0 Strain, they must wait a round and then their next action must be spent to roll for more Strain. A Destiny Point can be spent to return a Character to Half of Normal full Strain. Stun Damage and Stun weapons do Wound Threshold Damage, but this heals up after every scene automatically.

As an ancillary benefit, Use of Strain as the primary damage also cuts down on Players constantly taking a second Maneuver every round just because.

In Play: The use of Strain in this way has somehow made combat feel more dangerous and urgent, while cutting down on the D&D feel of combat. A good hit will still do a Critical if it has enough Advantage or a Triumph behind it, and that feels right because it was a Good Hit and made combat feel hard to predict and exciting.

Some talents are affected by this rule as Strain is a much more precious commodity, but it hasn't been as big of an effect as I thought it might be before playtesting the rule. My groups do not tend to have a lot of Fore Users and the Force users that are around are generally Force Sensitive types anyway. So for heavy Lightsaber action this may have a bigger effect on use.

I understand your thematic reasoning, however I would simply make your bad guys use the Stun quality on their weapons by default. Home-brewing table rules for this seems to be over-complicating your problem. RAW is pretty good as is, and it also allows you to create more suspense in battles between a bar brawl or running from Black Sun.

On 9/2/2020 at 11:16 AM, Fistofpaper said:

I understand your thematic reasoning, however I would simply make your bad guys use the Stun quality on their weapons by default. Home-brewing table rules for this seems to be over-complicating your problem. RAW is pretty good as is, and it also allows you to create more suspense in battles between a bar brawl or running from Black Sun.

Well it has worked out great. The players now use their Strain judiciously and the combat doesn't feel like D&D. I get that counting up to a wound threshold is supposed to be abstract to a large degree, but stimpaks taking away physical damage complicates that. Also the psychological effect of combat is not well addressed in the RaW version. I have tried having them make Discipline checks for fear and it doesn't play out in a satisfying way. Also I have noticed that some players will hang pretty seriously if they have to constantly describe Advantage uses and so this gives them the ability to just refresh their Strain.