I wonder if that double-attack from TIE/D would be appropriate with Jamming Beam, Tractor Beam, and maybe Ion Cannon. Limiting cannon selection by cost is awkward... I'd limit it to cannons that deal tokens instead of damage (by preventing it from ever dealing damage -- only tokens matter). I assume the configuration would also need to remove Full Throttle.

I'm a bit inclined to reverse the order (primary first, then tokens, so you're not powering up your own attack, but instead helping allies). That both makes it less powerful (which may be important to bring it in line with 2.0) and easier to word the text. But for the first pass I'll leave that be.

Heavy TIE/D (Configuration: TIE/D Fighter Only)

1 charge (recurring)

You cannot use Full Throttle.

Before you would perform a Cannon attack, you may spend a charge. If you do, each time the target would suffer damage from an uncancelled hit/crit during this attack, prevent that damage. After performing this attack, if you spent the charge, you may perform a bonus primary weapon attack.

5 points (I picked the cost arbitrarily, btw; totally open to raising or dropping it)

The nice part of TIE/D was it was a difference in kind instead of a difference in scale . Instead of just doing more damage, it put the lesser-used status effect cannons to use in interesting ways, particularly tractor beam (repositioning the target and reducing their agility before blasting them, or moving them into place for an ally). But for most of its existence, it didn't see use because the free evade from x7 was objectively better until the nerf.

Differences in kind are much more interesting, but they're a lot harder to balance than something that just increases your accuracy or damage or shot count. And they're the things that usually get nerfed hard later, like tractor tokens. The Nantex was a fascinating ship to fly and play with, absolutely amazing and clever design, but it was also OP and NPE as ****! Likewise I've heard Ketsu described as a bully, and Quadrijets made lots of enemies too. So a TIE/D configuration with its free tractor/jam/ion before firing could be tricky to balance right for second edition. As with Twin Laser Turret , its core design may not be appropriate without major reworking. It'll take some analysis.

Thoughts?

Hmmmm... I assume that when you say

15 minutes ago, Wazat said:

if the target would suffer damage from an uncancelled hit/crit during this attack, prevent that damage

you mean that only one damage would be negated?

I feel like that it wouldn't have enough of a reason to take it. Loosing the full throttle ability is a big deal for the defender, but I like the idea of that being a consequence (side note- would it be too powerful to restrict the full throttle to a turn by turn basis??). I think that if you are going to take away that ability there should be a bigger advantage. What about instead of befitting the defender, you make it negative for the attacker? Something like

TIE Defender (Heavy) (Configuration TIE Defender)

One charge, Recurring

"At the start of the Engagement phase, you may spend one charge. If you do, you may not use your full throttle ship ability this round. After you preform an attack you may preform a bonus primary attack. If you do, you cannot modify any dice. If this attack hits, you must gain one strain or deplete token of the defender's choosing"

The reasoning behind the wording "of the defender's choosing" is for aces high and other multiplayer events. I really hope that we get a points change to update hyperspace and as part of that, we see the Defender become legal.

2 hours ago, Gupa-nupa said:

Hmmmm... I assume that when you say

you mean that only one damage would be negated?

I feel like that it wouldn't have enough of a reason to take it. Loosing the full throttle ability is a big deal for the defender, but I like the idea of that being a consequence (side note- would it be too powerful to restrict the full throttle to a turn by turn basis??). I think that if you are going to take away that ability there should be a bigger advantage. What about instead of befitting the defender, you make it negative for the attacker? Something like

TIE Defender (Heavy) (Configuration TIE Defender)

One charge, Recurring

"At the start of the Engagement phase, you may spend one charge. If you do, you may not use your full throttle ship ability this round. After you preform an attack you may preform a bonus primary attack. If you do, you cannot modify any dice. If this attack hits, you must gain one strain or deplete token of the defender's choosing"

The reasoning behind the wording "of the defender's choosing" is for aces high and other multiplayer events. I really hope that we get a points change to update hyperspace and as part of that, we see the Defender become legal.

I mean it negates all damage that would be dealt to shields and hull from the cannon; only tokens that are dealt instead of damage would get through (jam, ion, tractor). This keeps players from double-tapping with autoblasters, HLC, etc. This is meant to be a non-damaging, token-inflicting attack attack that happens before your primary weapon attack.

I strongly disagree with just turning it into "you attack twice", since double-tapping with your 3-dice primary (or 4-dice at range 1) would be terrifyingly OP, entirely inappropriate for 2nd edition. Veteran Turret Gunner can't hold a candle to that level of power. Not being able to modify dice on the 2nd attack doesn't solve that one bit. Not even gaining a deplete or strain is that big of a deal for a TIE Defender that can easily zoom away or joust behind foes and has great blues and repositions. Honoring the original TIE/D title is better: it only works with the token-inflicting cannons.

Being able to keep Full Throttle on the rounds you're not double-tapping is also quite powerful. Not as severe as the unrestricted 3- or 4-dice double-tap, but still amazing. That's combining the two titles onto the same ship and letting it choose each round, at the start of engagement when all ship placements are set, which it would like to do (which also doesn't make sense, since you've already used full throttle back in Activation).

Did you play the first edition TIE/D and TIE/x7 titles? I feel like you're not familiar with them and that might be part of the confusion. The TIE/x7 title is what TIE Defenders have now as a ship ability, while TIE/D is what you could equip instead to shoot with a weak cannon first and then follow up with your primary. Once x7 was brought into balance, TIE/D became a lot more powerful. Rexler was a BRUTE with it, but so were the others.

For example, Rexler liked to attack with Tractor Beam to move the target into range 1 or out of range 3, and reduce its agility. Then he'd perform his primary attack against the closer, lower-agility target. And then he could use his ability to flip damage cards. Or he could be damaging and ionizing a target. Or jamming them to wipe out defensive and offensive tokens, softening them up for both his attack and the team's.

Defenders are my most played and favorite Imperial ship and they definitely do not need a double attack again.

My only issues with them in 2.0 are that you should be able to fly 3 OR they should have a Sloop manuever, seeing as theyre a super manueverable superiority fighter.

Triple Defenders was my jam in 1.0 even before the title buffs, but if I cant have that at least give me the same manueverability cheaper ships have

13 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Defenders are my most played and favorite Imperial ship and they definitely do not need a double attack again.

My only issues with them in 2.0 are that you should be able to fly 3 OR they should have a Sloop manuever, seeing as theyre a super manueverable superiority fighter.

Triple Defenders was my jam in 1.0 even before the title buffs, but if I cant have that at least give me the same manueverability cheaper ships have

IMO that kinda defeats the balance on Defenders in 2e though. Even in 1e the point was that they had a narrow band of astonishing maneuverability (blue straights and unheard of white k-turns), but turning is challenging and they don't have any k-turn alternatives like sloops or tallons. TIE Defenders are meant to be predictable unless the player resists the urge to keep jousting and mixes it up a bit. Giving them sloops would probably be a mistake... that robs the opponent of a lot of counterplay that makes this monster ship tackleable.

Remember that this is a 3/3/3/4 ship with a white k-turn and both boost and roll repositions, and a free evade action on fast maneuvers. Even though the sloops would be red, giving it more jousting versatility is likely a bad idea. Opponents need counterplay.

That's my opinion; I'd love for @theBitterFig or one of the other experts here to give their take.

16 hours ago, Wazat said:

Did you play the first edition TIE/D and TIE/x7 titles? I feel like you're not familiar with them and that might be part of the confusion.

You are absolutely right. It was a game that I watched intently at the end of 1.0 but I didn't join until 2.0. That being said, I did some research on the old titles, and your proposal makes a lot more sense now. I can understand why you did some of the things you did. As for the cost, I think that 5 is pretty close to home. I apologize for the misunderstanding, That was my mistake.

Is there a reason why you didn't make the charge spending at the start of the system phase? As you say in response to @Vontoothskie , opponents need counter play, so why not force the player to show their intention? Also, I don't think that we will ever get to fly 3 Defenders at once. Which, although it is sad, is probably best for the game (for the same reason that we won't ever get Vader in a Defender). I think that the S-Loops is an interesting idea, but there are other ships that need that added maneuverability more than the Defender.

I'm no expert (especially with Defenders), but some thoughts I had while reading this: I agree the Defender doesn't need double-tap again, but if you were to do it I would agree that making the second shot a secondary weapon helps reduce its power.

Removing Full Throttle is an interesting trade. I like the idea of having to make a choice between supreme maneuverability or heavier attacks.

To help limit the power of the double tap, make it so they have to take a stress to use the double tap. This way they are limited to making blue maneuvers to be able to double-tap again.

TIE Defender (Heavy) (Configuration TIE Defender)

Disable ship ability: Full Throttle

After performing a primary attack, receive one stress token to make an attack with an equipped secondary weapon.

Just some thoughts. Feedback appreciated

Can someone post a good defender list please?

possibly different from palp defenders

Thanks!

@Manolox , I usually fly this list (though, as I have never participated in any sort of tournament *yet* it may be absolute trash):

Rexler Brath (81)
Juke (7)
Autoblasters (3)

Ship total: 91 Half Points: 46 Threshold: 4

Seyn Marana (30)
Marksmanship (1)

Ship total: 31 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Darth Vader (67)
Passive Sensors (3)
Afterburners (6)

Ship total: 76 Half Points: 38 Threshold: 3


Total: 198

11 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

Is there a reason why you didn't make the charge spending at the start of the system phase? As you say in response to @Vontoothskie , opponents need counter play, so why not force the player to show their intention? Also, I don't think that we will ever get to fly 3 Defenders at once. Which, although it is sad, is probably best for the game (for the same reason that we won't ever get Vader in a Defender). I think that the S-Loops is an interesting idea, but there are other ships that need that added maneuverability more than the Defender.

That could be done, but it wouldn't amount to much. If they choose to spend the charge at the start of activation, the ability I've written doesn't punish that (they could make both attacks or just one attack, it doesn't matter). We might add something to make it a harder choice, but that changes the balance and I'd like to examine what I've got first.

1 hour ago, dunhop said:

To help limit the power of the double tap, make it so they have to take a stress to use the double tap. This way they are limited to making blue maneuvers to be able to double-tap again.

TIE Defender (Heavy) (Configuration TIE Defender)

Disable ship ability: Full Throttle

After performing a primary attack, receive one stress token to make an attack with an equipped secondary weapon.

Adding a stress to my token-only extra attack is pretty harsh, but may be necessary for double taps if in practice it got out of line. That said, this is a non-damaging shot (it can only deal tractor, jam, or ion tokens) so the normal doubletap rules don't directly apply. It enhances their attack but doesn't strictly deal extra damage on its own. I'm not sure if adding stress is necessary, but it's a decent tool to have in our toolbox.

But as written, you've got a true double-tap with primary + any cannon, which is actually really terrifying -- a stress wouldn't be near enough for that. Imagine at range 1, it's double-tapping with a 4-dice primary and a 3 - 4 dice autoblaster (that might bypass shields with its crits). And it can be performed regularly (the only price is stress). That blows Veteran Turret Gunner out of the water.

I'd shy entirely away from a damaging 2nd attack; that's not the direction the TIE Defender should go, and it's not what the original TIE/D title did anyway. Its extra cannon shot was intended only as a status effect shot, not a VTG-style damage shot.

52 minutes ago, Manolox said:

Can someone post a good defender list please?

possibly different from palp defenders

Thanks!

Try this. Not necessarily top meta (TIE Defenders are not currently sporting enough raw efficiency to play with the big dogs), but it's three aces that can play different roles really well.

Rexler Brath (81)
Juke (7)
Fire-Control System (2)
Ship total: 90 Half Points: 45 Threshold: 4

"Duchess" (42)
Fifth Brother (11)
Ship total: 53 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2

Soontir Fel (53)
Predator (2)
Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z196X123W113WWY211XW82WWY179X127WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Soontir and Duchess are solid flankers who shouldn't be jousting; keep them out of arcs. Rexler can joust and either hold foes focused on him, or properly punish ships pursuing your other aces. His speed and init help him to deal with foes he shouldn't joust too, such as swarms. And he's about half your points, so he can just run away with those points to frustrate foes if needed. I don't like fortressing and slowplay tactics IMO but I accept that they're embraced by winners.

FCS, Predator, and Juke can be dropped to widen your bid as you see fit; depends on the ace profile of your local meta. Fifth Brother is also viable to chuck if you want more bid or other upgrades more than free dice mods on Duchess, though he's really solid on her. Maarek Stele is a suitable replacement to Duchess, though I generally prefer her maneuverability. Whisper is also potent but you'd have to go light on upgrades on someone (or everyone) to fit her.

The most common way to optimize a fleet like this to be meta-worthy is unfortunately to remove the TIE Defender and replace it with something either vastly more efficient for the points (e.g. Vader), or replace it with something cheaper. The meta is a cruel and unfeeling master.

2 hours ago, Wazat said:

That's my opinion; I'd love for @theBitterFig or one of the other experts here to give their take.

Mostly just copy the B-Wing S-Foils. Spending a lock to gain a bonus attack seems fair enough. I might increase the price.

Granted, I wouldn't be eager to see FFG bring over double-taps for Defenders. However, for Homebrew like this, copying something that already exists seems like the best option.

Sure, it works out great for Vessery, but Vessery was already overpriced.

32 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Mostly just copy the B-Wing S-Foils. Spending a lock to gain a bonus attack seems fair enough. I might increase the price.

Granted, I wouldn't be eager to see FFG bring over double-taps for Defenders. However, for Homebrew like this, copying something that already exists seems like the best option.

Sure, it works out great for Vessery, but Vessery was already overpriced.

B-Wings are not the evasive, fast-moving tanks that TIE Defenders are, but point taken. Strip the linked actions of course and just have the one side, and certainly also take away full throttle.

Even without full throttle, I do think though that there'd need to be some additional limits on the TIE Defender to keep it from combining a B-Wing double-tap with the mobility and damage-shedding power of a fast 3-dice tanky ship... Rexler with the B-Wing Double-Tap for example would be hard to kill and quite damaging. At TIE Defender prices I wonder if that would be fine though...

Gina or Ten will be 55 or 53 points compared to Rexler's 86+ (you can almost field both for his price), but they move nowhere near as well and can't shed much damage either. They're knife fighters that can be pinned down and focused to death, or chipped to death over the course of a match while outflying them. When Rexler senses danger he can bail in a number of high-speed directions, boost or roll as needed, and shed a lot of whatever shot still reaches him. It feels like a big difference, but maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion.

Kind of a difference of "Two generic X-Wings or one solid Ace". The ace tends to be hands-down preferred unless the generics can swarm enough reach the critical mass of efficiency. With their stats and dial (and Rexler's init), TIE Defenders are closer to that role than to B-Wings.

1 hour ago, Wazat said:

and certainly also take away full throttle.

I might instead say "You cannot perform the Evade Action." This prevents any double-tap Juke BS.

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I might instead say "You cannot perform the Evade Action." This prevents any double-tap Juke BS.

Or, perhaps a stable firing platform is needed to shoot the cannons:

After you perform a primary attack, if the speed of your revealed maneuver is 1 or 2 ...

You can further restrict the double tap to non-red maneuvers or something.

"After you perform an attack, you may spend an evade token to perform a bonus [cannon] attack using a [cannon] upgrade you have not attack with this turn."

Wording pilfered from B-Wing card, has a cost, but two ways to pay it. Interesting synergy with pilot skill, similar to Advanced Optics, where spending the token with an ace is a gamble, and the I1 is generally safe. Thematically, it represents the Defender staying on target for a bit longer, foregoing some defensive ability.

I like @QQMoore 's idea of forcing it to slow down, but I don't think that is enough of a punishment. As for @Okapi 's idea, I like the thematic idea, but there should be a bigger cost.

I like the interaction of Full Throttle and the double-tap not working.

TIE/D Config: 1 recurring charge. When you gain an evade token, lose one charge. When you attack with a cannon weapon, if you dealt 0 or 1 damage, you may spend 1 charge to perform a bonus primary weapon attack.

My wording is a mess but my intent is that if you've got an evade token (probably from full throttle, but would trigger from any source), you lose the stability to attack with both weapons in the same turn. Limiting the damage keeps this to the control weapons.

How about this:

You really have to sell out your defense to get that extra offense. I also make it limited, because why not.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

How about this:

You really have to sell out your defense to get that extra offense. I also make it limited, because why not.

That seems like it would push people hard into the low-initiative Defender, because it doesn’t hurt you much if you’re shooting last. Though you do have to be willing to plot a blue on the following turn. To gain the effect I think you’re looking for, you’d have to time it for the start of the Engagement phase.

...

10 hours ago, QQMoore said:

After you perform a primary attack, if the speed of your revealed maneuver is 1 or 2 ...

You can further restrict the double tap to non-red maneuvers or something.

I like this. Elegant. It not only keeps the maneuvers required for the double-tap more predictable (which allows for better counter-play), but it also prevents the free Evade, because Full Throttle only functions at speed 3 or higher. This is well done.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

How about this:

You really have to sell out your defense to get that extra offense. I also make it limited, because why not.

Missing "as a bonus attack" but looks neat otherwise. Scary but neat (as written triggers off of any attack the ship equipped with it performs, double tapping with Ion or HLCs is allot of omph). With out the stipulation it could end up being possible to chain multiple cannon attacks beyond the two this would currently enable.

On 6/10/2020 at 3:35 PM, Gupa-nupa said:

Hmmmm... I assume that when you say

you mean that only one damage would be negated?

I feel like that it wouldn't have enough of a reason to take it. Loosing the full throttle ability is a big deal for the defender, but I like the idea of that being a consequence (side note- would it be too powerful to restrict the full throttle to a turn by turn basis??). I think that if you are going to take away that ability there should be a bigger advantage. What about instead of befitting the defender, you make it negative for the attacker? Something like

TIE Defender (Heavy) (Configuration TIE Defender)

One charge, Recurring

"At the start of the Engagement phase, you may spend one charge. If you do, you may not use your full throttle ship ability this round. After you preform an attack you may preform a bonus primary attack. If you do, you cannot modify any dice. If this attack hits, you must gain one strain or deplete token of the defender's choosing"

The reasoning behind the wording "of the defender's choosing" is for aces high and other multiplayer events. I really hope that we get a points change to update hyperspace and as part of that, we see the Defender become legal.

I just want to note that declaring an inability to use Full Throttle at the start of the Engagement Phase does nothing. The shop has already executed it's maneuver and received the Evade token. It'd need to be triggered at a point ranging from start of the System phase until "Before you execute a maneuver."

ok... lets imagine a double tap config for defenders that shut down full throttle....

how much it would cost?

the cost of the cannon plus....???

onestly every time i played with a defender it was very hard to push damage trough .... and they cost A LOT.

they need a better attack efficency for their cost (and for shure they have to pay points for it).

MAYBE I'M WRONG but i don't know if an ability that gives you double tap if you don't use full throttle is a good idea because the defender's high points cost reason is full throttle.

sorry for my english

20 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

That seems like it would push people hard into the low-initiative Defender, because it doesn’t hurt you much if you’re shooting last. Though you do have to be willing to plot a blue on the following turn. To gain the effect I think you’re looking for, you’d have to time it for the start of the Engagement phase.

You say that, but you would also have to not spend your evade for every I2-I5 shot that come at you which kind of defeats the purpose of the evade defensively. So whether you are spending it to attack at I5 or not spending it until I1, it hampers your defense.

20 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Missing "as a bonus attack" but looks neat otherwise. Scary but neat (as written triggers off of any attack the ship equipped with it performs, double tapping with Ion or HLCs is allot of omph). With out the stipulation it could end up being possible to chain multiple cannon attacks beyond the two this would currently enable.

Nice catch on the bonus attack; otherwise I modeled it off of IG-88B who can double tap with a cannon, whose ability isn't super powerful. Could be changed to "after you perform a primary attack" if it is too strong.

The nice thing about bonus attacks is you can forget to label them and it doesn't matter, since the rules cover that. Every attack besides your standard attack is a bonus attack and you only get one of each. Cards that label the bonus attack are just being nice and reminding you. 😄

On 6/12/2020 at 11:05 AM, 5050Saint said:

How about this:

You really have to sell out your defense to get that extra offense. I also make it limited, because why not.

I feel like this may be over kill - either spend the evade for bonus or take a strain for bonus.