3 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

I think you're drastically underestimating a good chunk of this community, especially the ones interested in logging their plays 😛 Ultron is tough, sure, but he's still easier in multiplayer than solo in a lot of ways. Plus there are soooo many cards that are practically designed specifically to fight Ultron.

I disagree. Not a chance above 50% win rate pre-Black Widow. Play two (two-handed solo) matches Ultron Expert-Under Attack (pre-BW) and IM me the play-by-play/video link. At 50% win rate that shouldnt be a substantial challenge at all.

2 hours ago, IceHot42 said:

I disagree. Not a chance above 50% win rate pre-Black Widow. Play two (two-handed solo) matches Ultron Expert-Under Attack (pre-BW) and IM me the play-by-play/video link. At 50% win rate that shouldnt be a substantial challenge at all.

That sounds like a lot of work for someone who doesn’t normally record gameplay, but either way I wasn’t referring to myself. I’m talking about several players on discord who default to playing Heroic at this point because they can win too consistently with basically any Expert matchup. I’m talking about the guys who own all of the LotR LCG and Arkham LCG and have basically been playing this same game with different skins for a decade already.

For kicks, though, since I enjoy Ultron and don’t find him to be terribly terrifying, I will play a couple games 2-handed vs. Ultron Under Attack Expert tomorrow, without using any Widow or Strange cards. I’ll let you know how it goes. 🤙

5 hours ago, IceHot42 said:

I disagree. Not a chance above 50% win rate pre-Black Widow. Play two (two-handed solo) matches Ultron Expert-Under Attack (pre-BW) and IM me the play-by-play/video link. At 50% win rate that shouldnt be a substantial challenge at all.

I’m not entirely sure why you consider Ultron harder 2-handed than true solo. I’ve played it true solo a lot more than I’ve played it 2 handed, but my win rate is a fair bit higher 2 handed.

14 hours ago, FearLord said:

I’m not entirely sure why you consider Ultron harder 2-handed than true solo. I’ve played it true solo a lot more than I’ve played it 2 handed, but my win rate is a fair bit higher 2 handed.

Perhaps my play experience is different. My win rate is 10x times higher solo against this setup. Im not a horrible player (certainly not as good as the "Decaders") , but I have a hard time believing that an open audience is achieving a 50%+ rating on this scenario and playing correctly. After having watched several TC videos I have become even more skeptical of false claims.

Playing certain heroes into Ultron as well as Leadership will also affect winrates as he is countered by certain things. I know 3-4p is considerably harder than 2p.

Solo is probably harder in general, but if you play a hero or aspect, that counters Ultron, it will likely feel easier.

7 hours ago, IceHot42 said:

Perhaps my play experience is different. My win rate is 10x times higher solo against this setup. Im not a horrible player (certainly not as good as the "Decaders") , but I have a hard time believing that an open audience is achieving a 50%+ rating on this scenario and playing correctly. After having watched several TC videos I have become even more skeptical of false claims.

I would agree with that, as I’ve played a variety of heroes and aspect into Expert Ultron and my win rate without Leadership is significantly lower. It’s definitely possible that some people play it wrong consistently, but I think Ultron is also fairly unique in that Leadership and certain heroes have a huge leg up against him in terms of Drone control. Hawkeye + Make the Call is significantly impactful against Ultron, but Squirrel Girl is also very strong, and certain heroes have better crowd control (Captain America and Black Panther spring to mind as they both have retaliate and a decent crowd control tool).

I think a decent Captain America / Leadership + Black Panther / Aggression combo would have a significantly higher win rate into Expert Ultron than say a solo Spider-Man / Justice deck would (as you don’t have any really efficient way to clear drones)...

On 6/18/2020 at 2:40 AM, FearLord said:

I would agree with that, as I’ve played a variety of heroes and aspect into Expert Ultron and my win rate without Leadership is significantly lower. It’s definitely possible that some people play it wrong consistently, but I think Ultron is also fairly unique in that Leadership and certain heroes have a huge leg up against him in terms of Drone control. Hawkeye + Make the Call is significantly impactful against Ultron, but Squirrel Girl is also very strong, and certain heroes have better crowd control (Captain America and Black Panther spring to mind as they both have retaliate and a decent crowd control tool).

I think a decent Captain America / Leadership + Black Panther / Aggression combo would have a significantly higher win rate into Expert Ultron than say a solo Spider-Man / Justice deck would (as you don’t have any really efficient way to clear drones)...

I simply can’t imagine how you’d lose at the Expert level with BP and Cap.

13 hours ago, Derrault said:

I simply can’t imagine how you’d lose at the Expert level with BP and Cap.

Weve lost that match up easily 30 times. Im not that bad of a player*

*I have been recently tracking a 80% win rate solo with random heroes against expert (excluding Ultron) - not great but not that bad.

15 hours ago, Derrault said:

I simply can’t imagine how you’d lose at the Expert level with BP and Cap.

Yes, I feel like they’ve definitely got the tools between them to stay on top of. I might try it tonight - I’ve been meaning to put a Black Panther Aggression deck together...

4 hours ago, IceHot42 said:

Weve lost that match up easily 30 times. Im not that bad of a player*

*I have been recently tracking a 80% win rate solo with random heroes against expert (excluding Ultron) - not great but not that bad.

Just as a postmortem, what’s causing the loss?

Are you losing to threat, or getting killed? If threat out, why was the threat out happening? (Ie did you allow threat to accumulate rather than keeping it to zero before the end of each round?) edit: Cap and BP are very strong when it comes to THW, Cap alone can get rid of 4 threat per round, just using his hero trait, and with Fearless Determination nets 6 or 8).

If it’s from damage, what happened? Because of retaliate the drones should be clearing themselves immediately, so your incoming per full set of attacks ought to be ~4-5 (meaning that even if you get a double attack, and didn’t block anything (although I think you ought to unless you plan on recovering), you’d still live on Panther or Cap).

21 hours ago, Derrault said:

Just as a postmortem, what’s causing the loss?

Are you losing to threat, or getting killed? If threat out, why was the threat out happening? (Ie did you allow threat to accumulate rather than keeping it to zero before the end of each round?) edit: Cap and BP are very strong when it comes to THW, Cap alone can get rid of 4 threat per round, just using his hero trait, and with Fearless Determination nets 6 or 8).

If it’s from damage, what happened? Because of retaliate the drones should be clearing themselves immediately, so your incoming per full set of attacks ought to be ~4-5 (meaning that even if you get a double attack, and didn’t block anything (although I think you ought to unless you plan on recovering), you’d still live on Panther or Cap).

We lose mostly from what I call critical mass due to multi-player deck disconnect. First the critical mass part...we lose to thwart most often after or near the end of the 2nd turn of the villain deck because our health is too low to stay in hero mode. Usually it is the result of Ultron spitting out too many minions off of extra attacks our minions that can survive retaliate (+1 hp or +2 or even +3 hp).

The multi-player disconnect is what happens lots of times when the rythmn of heroes changing modes (hero/alter-ego) does not synch up as well. Many games end because encounter cards force both players back into alter-ego mode followed by some brutal top deck scheming.

You cant double THW and block.

Things that usually happen to us with a reasonable board state. Player 1 (Cappy) blocks against Ultron and retaliates each minion (if Ultron is on stage III or Upgrade Drones is out those minion stay on board). Player 2 blocks with an ally and retaliates the 1 minion. Player 1 draws android efficiency twice loading up both boards. Player 2 draws Exhaustion and surges into Gang-Up. He is now on life support and has to flip next turn. He cant recover because he is exhausted so is stuck there for 2 turns. On stage 2 the choice of adding 2 threat or a minion doesnt help much because those minions get to scheme. This isnt usually the end but this usually is what puts the countdown one or two turns away. Once the countdown goes with a plus 1 boost the decks cant spit out enough damage to keep pace and THW is useless.

10 hours ago, IceHot42 said:

We lose mostly from what I call critical mass due to multi-player deck disconnect. First the critical mass part...we lose to thwart most often after or near the end of the 2nd turn of the villain deck because our health is too low to stay in hero mode. Usually it is the result of Ultron spitting out too many minions off of extra attacks our minions that can survive retaliate (+1 hp or +2 or even +3 hp).

The multi-player disconnect is what happens lots of times when the rythmn of heroes changing modes (hero/alter-ego) does not synch up as well. Many games end because encounter cards force both players back into alter-ego mode followed by some brutal top deck scheming.

You cant double THW and block.

Things that usually happen to us with a reasonable board state. Player 1 (Cappy) blocks against Ultron and retaliates each minion (if Ultron is on stage III or Upgrade Drones is out those minion stay on board). Player 2 blocks with an ally and retaliates the 1 minion. Player 1 draws android efficiency twice loading up both boards. Player 2 draws Exhaustion and surges into Gang-Up. He is now on life support and has to flip next turn. He cant recover because he is exhausted so is stuck there for 2 turns. On stage 2 the choice of adding 2 threat or a minion doesnt help much because those minions get to scheme. This isnt usually the end but this usually is what puts the countdown one or two turns away. Once the countdown goes with a plus 1 boost the decks cant spit out enough damage to keep pace and THW is useless.

I totally agree that players need to work as a team to achieve peak efficiency, but that being said you can double THW and then block; you’d just be unable to do the double the next turn. That being said, most THW potential in Leadership generally comes out of the allies.

Ultron III doesn’t create drones on his own; for the advanced drones, that’s definitely a priority target, how was android efficiency occurring twice? (As the boost? Probably worth paying the cancel cost)

11 hours ago, Derrault said:

how was android efficiency occurring twice? (As the boost? Probably worth paying the cancel cost)

Decking out. So far I have found it takes longer to win in two -player then in solo because your all-in point has to match up with both heroes.

But, I have lost to Ultron perhaps in every manner possible. During my solo/multi-player challenges I will pay more attention when we methodically get to Ultron. Unfortunately by then we will likely have BW, DrS, and Hulk and those things that were challenges in core+2 will probably no longer be.