What would the meta look like if every ship was required to bring all of its available upgrades?

- Which list would be the best in each faction?

- Which faction would be the best?

For context the opposite requirement would be where all ships are required not to use any upgrades at all.

Are you talking fill the ships' slots or use all of what was taken in every match or face a penalty?

I would expect to see a lot of Munitions failsafe's and delayed fuses.

Honestly I think it would be a bad idea as players would just play the ships with the least amount upgrade slots, for those of us that played in the JTO we are all to familiar with ships that are terrible if you fill all the upgrade slots.

Id expect Generic Fang Fighters with APT to be super strong in that meta.

200 Point Squad

Zealous Recruit (41)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Zealous Recruit (41)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Zealous Recruit (41)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Joy Rekkoff (52)
Crack Shot (1)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

17 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Are you talking fill the ships' slots or use all of what was taken in every match or face a penalty?

Good question, clarified the wording.

What about this:

Rey — Scavenged YT-1300 70
Instinctive Aim 1
Ion Missiles 4
Rose Tico 9
Freelance Slicer 3
Finn 10
Contraband Cybernetics 2
Electronic Baffle 2
Rey’s Millennium Falcon 2
Ship Total: 103
Half Points: 52 Threshold: 6

Zizi Tlo — RZ-2 A-Wing 40
Crack Shot 1
Heroic 1
Homing Missiles 5
Advanced Optics 4
Ship Total: 51
Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

Tallissan Lintra — RZ-2 A-Wing 36
Crack Shot 1
Heroic 1
Ion Missiles 4
Advanced Optics 4
Ship Total: 46
Half Points: 23 Threshold: 2

Three Ini5s for 200 points.

Who wants Boba/Fenn, but with 11 red dice at range 1?

Boba Fett (85)
Fearless (3)
Jamming Beam (0)
Homing Missiles (5)
Maul (12)
Seismic Charges (3)
Contraband Cybernetics (2)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Slave I (1)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Ship total: 118 Half Points: 59 Threshold: 5

Fenn Rau (68)
Fearless (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Ship total: 77 Half Points: 39 Threshold: 2


Total: 195

This is a fun idea. Seems like you're really going to push out the middle ships, though. Either you want chunky I5s and I6s who can actually use their toys, or you want as many lightweight, low upgrade cheap ships as possible.

No thanks:

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Captain Sear (45)
Kraken (10)
Impervium Plating (4)
Soulless One (6)

Ship total: 65 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 4

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2


Total: 195

It would be fine, if there were decent upgrades in 2E. Too much useless jank now though.

Aces still win.

Ace-type-ships typically have fewer slots, and are typically better at protecting their points. A lot of midrange jousters have a tonne of slots. B-Wings and Kimoglias get particularly ruined by such a scheme. Not only do they have to take a lot of waste, they'll give up their points pretty easy.

It's really easy to tack on an extra 6 points to an ace and have it viable. That's not the case with any ship near a break-point.

//

Other things we'd probably learn:

• Synchronized Console is actually decent. It's 3-4 points to load out a fairly standard squad with them, and it gives every ship in your fleet the ability to coordinate Lock actions in the Engagement phase.

For example:

• Vader (Hate, Ion Missiles, Passive Sensors, Afterburners) 83
• Soontir Fel (Crack Shot, Targeting Computer, Hull Upgrade) 64
• Fifth Brother (Hate, Homing Missiles, Passive Sensors) 53

I'd rather have another 4-10 points of bid, but honestly, the list is fine in current X-Wing.

A B-Wing becomes a minimum 55 point ship. T-65 is 49 points. Y-Wing is 47. There's no way ships like that could keep up; they pay a much heavier tax than most aces.

Aces pretty much already do this, at least imperial ones (though republic aces don't super mind either). Boba/Fenn barely even changes.

The big losers are probably missile/torpedo carrying generics and the heavy bomber types with 30 upgrade slots. The one point mod upgrades give a saving grace to cheap stuff, CIS can probably put convincing lists together since they're happily missile carrying generics anyways. First order seems like it probably does okay too.

55 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A B-Wing becomes a minimum 55 point ship. T-65 is 49 points. Y-Wing is 47. There's no way ships like that could keep up; they pay a much heavier tax than most aces.

Rebels in general suffer really badly from this.

They're basically a faction of toolbox ships where everything's packing some kind of ordnance or weapon slot; an astro, crew or sensor, and a modification at least .

The only ships that don't fit that bill and come out okay are the A-Wing (Prockets Crack Outmaneuver Jake isn't too bad at all) and the Z-95. But even then, the Z-95s suffer from pretty bad bloat. No one wants to bother with Homing Missiles and Munitions Failsafe or Hull Upgrade on Blount.

Most of their ships are going to be bloated with upgrades that don't make them more efficient and cost an additional ship in total.

A Blue Squadron U-Wing comes out okay. Throwing Tactical Officer, Leia and Pivot Wing isn't a bad start anyway. Adding FCS might even be something you'd consider in a normal list. An extra 2 points for Tactical Scrambler isn't horrible either. Actually, it's an upgrade I wish got used a bit more.

Some factions don't care at all though. Annoyingly, thanks to CLT, Jedi are basically unfazed by this. R4-P to give you a full dial the two times in a game you need to remove stress, Predictive Shot if you just want to fill the slot as cheaply as possible, Brilliant Evasion as another cheap option for your Plos and Ahsokas, Foresight for your 3 tokeners like Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can fill all the slots on Anakin, Obi-Wan and Plo and still have a really healthy bid. There's even enough space for R2 on all three if you stick to Predictive Shot just to fill the slot.

I feel like if they did this, they'd have to increase the points cost of different base chassis by different amounts and then remove the cost of upgrade cards, as even with 23 upgrade cards there's some pretty strong diminishing of returns you get the more slots you're filling usually.

Here's a fun exercise for this:

New rule: you have to fill every upgrade slot. Every upgrade costs 2 points less(and can be negative). Go!

For this to work, you'd definitely have to drop the cost of Ordnance carriers pretty heavily. Which might actually lead to some interesting builds.

I agree with the comments about Rebels being really undone by this and most any ship generic ship with a torpedo or other ordnance slot. I agree with aces coming out best on this exercise as well. Also on board with ordnance or ordnance carriers would need a price cut.

Messing around with some things this brings us back to things getting a cost to make things not broken on good ships while then getting priced out of use on other places where it might be okay. Those 13 point proton torpedoes really hurt in a use all the slots build.

U I have one.

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

Academy Pilot w Targeting Computer

I call it NoOcho.

Ships having a title slot and only one limited title available automatically can only ever be one. Which for some ships like the Fireball fluff wise would be desirable!

Others however, like e.g. G1A, Lambda, YV etc, are expressively stock models, where you should be able to field more than one if you want to.

Kihraxzes end straight up on the list of ruined ships, as well.

Non Mando Scum hurts, as it as Rebels is a faction with a lot of tool box ships.

[Edit:]

Addendum, as @Flurpy posted simultaneously:

With Mining Guild TIEs you have a similar Ocho.

Game would become super ace wing, as they are the ones able to protect their points.

10 hours ago, wurms said:

Game would become super ace wing, as they are the ones able to protect their points.

I'm not sure on the "super ace wing" aspect as I think you'd have to use some less desirable upgrades on aces to budget for upgrades on other ships. I think this is an idea to dial pack aces. Going by some of the other posts from Boom Owl the idea seems to "overcost" the aces with this. It just doesn't work though cause the problem is the aces are the ones worth putting all the upgrades on in the first place.

And for T-65s at any rate they get stuck with a 7 point tax for Adv. Proton Torps/Ion Torps and Munitions Failsafe that don't really help them. They are also then faced with ditching the regen droids as they need to pay for more Munitions failsafes and their own not all that needed R4 astros. So all T-65's in this scenario are going up at least 9 points. While an academy pilot goes up either 1 for nothing or 3 for something pretty useful in Targeting Computer.

Boba Fett already wants to take all the upgrades. Wedge doesn't and his wingmen certainly don't. While Vader's wingmen either don't mind like in the trip aces list above or you drop a TIE in your swarm to up the other pilots.

So I wrote all that stuff and threw some things in the builder. Maybe the Rebels aren't that bad off but it is certainly "Super-aces."

T-65 X-wing - •Luke Skywalker - 72
•Luke Skywalker - Red Five (62)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Instinctive Aim (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 65
•Wedge Antilles - Red Two (55)
Crack Shot (1)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

BTL-A4 Y-wing - •Norra Wexley - 63
•Norra Wexley - Gold Nine (41)
Crack Shot (1)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
•“Chopper” (2)
Proton Bombs (5)
Delayed Fuses (1)
Skilled Bombardier (2)

Total: 200/200

Coming down on the Y-wing for more beef on the T-65s:

BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gray Squadron Bomber - 47
Gray Squadron Bomber - (30)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
•“Chopper” (2)
Seismic Charges (3)
Delayed Fuses (1)
Skilled Bombardier (2)

T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 70
•Wedge Antilles - Red Two (55)
Crack Shot (1)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Shield Upgrade (6)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - •Luke Skywalker - 83
•Luke Skywalker - Red Five (62)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
•R2-D2 (8)
Shield Upgrade (6)
Instinctive Aim (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

Total: 200/200

Drop R2-D2 for two R5 and a two point bid.

I think I'd take either of those over a fourth ship though this could be fun:

T-65 X-wing - Cavern Angels Zealot - 49
Cavern Angels Zealot - (39)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - Cavern Angels Zealot - 49
Cavern Angels Zealot - (39)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - Red Squadron Veteran - 51
Red Squadron Veteran - (41)
Crack Shot (1)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - Red Squadron Veteran - 51
Red Squadron Veteran - (41)
Crack Shot (1)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
R4 Astromech (2)
Munitions Failsafe (1)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

Total: 200/200

23 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I think this is an idea to dial pack aces.

This was just something interesting to think about, no real agenda to it. What are the best all upgrades lists in the game etc.

If you look at each faction with that requirement and the opposite one weird things get architectured. Like for Scum you get Boba+Fenn with all the upgrades, or Boba Fenn Skull with no upgrades.

Just a fun thought exercise to see which list would be best in each faction with 100% upgrades or 0% upgrades (excluding configs).

48 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Just a fun thought exercise to see which list would be best in each faction with 100% upgrades or 0% upgrades (excluding configs).

If we're trying to find hidden gems... Not full lists, but at least ships.

• Rebels
  • A-Wings with Crack Shot, Predator, and Homing Missiles might be one of them. Close-range pain, with potential to lock and zoom out and reset for a consistent follow-up. Solid build for an ace, but sneaky-good on a bunch of generics.
  • E-Wings can fill all slots pretty naturally. FCS is great, even generics can make good use of Torpedoes (and Munitions Failsafe), and enjoy cheap droids like R4 and R3. Still a mediocre ship, but seems like a relative winner compared to, well, most of the rest of the faction. Against overloaded ships, a torpedo alpha strike might be rather effective.
• Imperial
  • Most Ace ships are fine.
  • Bomb-Strikers would be a sweet generic that isn't as bad as other generics in the format. They were already kinda fun, if not good.
• Scum
  • Seems mostly like Imperial. A lot of the best stuff is still fine, and most of the stuff that gets extra bad was already bad.
• Resistance
  • Seems really bad overall. Rey doesn't lose too much, mostly only a wasted missile upgrade. Everyone has a lot of spare slots and gets a lot of dead weight.
• First Order
  • Like resistance, they seem really loaded with slots and thus bad.
• Republic
  • Jedi are fine. Synchronized Console is a great addition.
• CIS
  • Hyenas DOA, but Vultures are fine. Stick in a Belbullab, and you're good to go. Nantex don't lose much, since they'd often run two talents anyhow, but Nantex were bad, so...

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

This was just something interesting to think about, no real agenda to it. What are the best all upgrades lists in the game etc.

If you look at each faction with that requirement and the opposite one weird things get architectured. Like for Scum you get Boba+Fenn with all the upgrades, or Boba Fenn Skull with no upgrades.

Just a fun thought exercise to see which list would be best in each faction with 100% upgrades or 0% upgrades (excluding configs).

I don't see this helping much with that. You have to take stuff so if you take two T-65s and can't give one proton torps because you have to give both ships a torp and a mod and need fourteen points minimum for that.

At the outset of second I really enjoyed 4x Blue Squadron Escorts with Proton Torpedoes. I'd rather have that than 5x Blue Squadron Escorts. I'd also take either of those over that four T-65 list I posted.

This entire exercise has left me a bit disenchanted with the upgrades all around.

EMPIRE:

Darth Vader (67)
Instinctive Aim (1)
Passive Sensors (3)
Cluster missle (5)
Afterburners (6)

Fifth Brother (42)
Instinctive Aim (1)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)
Total: 133

Co-Starring:

Soontir Fel (53)
Crack Shot (1)
Shield Upgrade (8)
Targeting Computer (3)

TOTAL 65

Or

“Whisper” (57)
Crack Shot (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
BT-1 (2)
Targeting Computer (3)
Total: 198

TOTAL 65

Or

Grand Inquisitor (52)
Sense (5)
Fire-Control System (2)
Proton Rockets (7)
Total: 66

TOTAL 66

Do you ever have a good idea?

Hi @Stay On The Leader @Stay OT Leader @SOTL ! Not sure what you said since I have you blocked.

Topic was just to think about what things exist if 100% upgrades were required. Nothing more than a "What if...." etc.

Hope your doing well.