1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Honestly, it's fine if you never put juke on ships that don't get free evades.

But then you do not even need to introduce Juke into the game, free evade token is by itself powerful (and stupid) enough. There should be an opportunity cost and a choice, automatic effects are boring.

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

Does this make a case for upgrades that cost scale with each copy in the list?

Not necessarily. Something kinda has to be worth saving. I'm not sure that Juke is.

Suppose a single copy of Juke is 4 points. It's still going to be bad on, say, Palob Godalhi. Meanwhile, Juke would still be kinda busted on Whisper. Folks have to remember: Juke remains somewhere between a better-and-always-on-Outmaneuver, and Hotshot Gunner.

If there's not much gain in the harmless case, and the worst-case is still bad for the game, it's not worth the complexity of the schemes to make solitaire Jukes affordable.

It'd be possible to go full spreadsheet, give Juke a cost based on red dice and whether or not the ship gets free Evades, but... just... why ? Juke doesn't deserve the trouble it'd take to make it fair.

4 hours ago, Dasharr said:

I'm not convinced that Juke Sigmas would be a problem at 50 each if they were limited to 2. A big part of what made the quad phantoms so strong was two things: (1) greater control than most squads over when and where to engage, thanks to the ability of the whole squad to crab-walk around with decloaks, and (2) the multiplicative strength of Juke making each Juke card stronger than the last. The closest you can get to replicating the quad phantom strengths is probably Juke Rexler [or another defender with a talent slot] plus double Juke Sigmas - but that's already possible now with the 55-point Juke Sigmas, and I don't think that squad's seen any major success.

In other words, Juke Sigmas are exactly the kind of case where limiting could be a useful control. It would be mechanically messy though because limited status is something meant to be on the card, plus there's no rules-structure in place to limit the number of a specific ship frame in play currently, only the number of a specific pilot.

You just added 10 points to any double Sigma list, though. That's a HUGE benefit.

People fixate on the "spam as many Jukes as possible" lists, but I don't know that Sigma/Sigma/Defender is even the best way to build such a list. I love Defenders, but they've got some awkward list Tetris. Vermiel seems like he'd be the first pilot I'd consider and run some sort of a 4-ship list. If someone wanted to run RAC, they'd be afford upgrades to go with Vader crew, to ensure RAC gets his Reinforce off, which would be huge.

I could see Sigmas being a point cheaper, 47 matching a Black Squadron Ace T-70, but mostly, I don't feel a pressing need to make them significantly cheaper. 50 with Juke still seems rather cheap to me, even if the squads aren't quite as obvious. If you wanted to make a case that limited-to-two Sigmas at 53 points would be fair, OK. Maybe.

15 hours ago, Managarmr said:

But then you do not even need to introduce Juke into the game, free evade token is by itself powerful (and stupid) enough. There should be an opportunity cost and a choice, automatic effects are boring.

Straight up, I'd just delete Juke from the game.

Not because it's necessarily too powerful (sometimes it is) but mostly because for most ships, it's too weak and too much of a trap. I'd rather not have Juke sitting there as a tempting mistake.

*edit*

I'll add: I like the core conceit of Juke--that you're gaining an offensive benefit from having an otherwise purely defensive token--but the execution just doesn't work.

14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Straight up, I'd just delete Juke from the game.

Not because it's necessarily too powerful (sometimes it is) but mostly because for most ships, it's too weak and too much of a trap. I'd rather not have Juke sitting there as a tempting mistake.

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

*edit*

Alternately, maybe buff Saturation Salvo? If it was 1 point, is it even busted?

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Alternately, maybe buff Saturation Salvo? If it was 1 point, is it even busted?

Y-Wings cry out for a saturation salvo that isn't 5 points or more!

I think fixing Saturation Salvo requires errataing the card text to reroll "up to 2 dice" instead of being fixed at 2. It's entirely too situational otherwise (unless they want to cost it at 0 points and consider the cost the use of the ordnance charge and taking up the Talent slot). Either way, it's not like it's a card that needs to be playable, and, hot take, neither is Juke.

On 6/2/2020 at 7:07 PM, Blail Blerg said:

spam and lists that don’t die before time is called are overwhelming the low firepower of other lists such as 2 ace + support lists.

*citation needed?*

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

I think fixing Saturation Salvo requires errataing the card text to reroll "up to 2 dice" instead of being fixed at 2.

Probably.

But as you say, it's not like it needs to be playable.