On 6/4/2020 at 8:44 AM, Jegergryte said:

You guys. Please.

23 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I actually thought that things had calmed down, and we were having a meaningful exchange of ideas at this point. I wouldn't classify the current state of things as an argument.

At this point I suspect that we mainly disagree about terminology, I'm being precise in my language and I think he's being loose with his.

Either I was wrong or Dono's comment stirred the pot, kicking daeglan back into antagonistic mode. I think it was the later.

It would be an option to just stop answering. You draw answers again and again on purpose.

13 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Before you accuse others of having an attitude, look in the mirror first, because you're projecting. You have made unprovoked and unsubstantiated personal attacks against me for the duration of this thread. I have repeatedly thanked you for expressing your opinion and asked you to please stop trying to start an argument. I confirmed that I understood your position by explaining it back to you an the only subtle correction/clarification you made was a point i previously said was unclear because you had made apparently mixed statements about. I took the time to understand your position you you did not explicitly spell out and instead communicated through insults, I articulately and precisely spelled out and explained the reasons behind my position. I commended/congratulated you for making a few astute comments. I came out and said my position was just opinion and that I could be wrong/could have outsmarted myself with my own logic. You have tried to force your view on others, I have not, but you accused me of your own behavior.

One of the two of us has displayed an "attitude" in this thread, but it was not me. Unless you meant my attitude was gracious and yours was hostile, but I don't think that's what you meant.

If you would care to support why you think I secretly have an attitude that is explicitly counter to everything I have said in this thread, I am willing to listen. But before you do, I ask you to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are again merely accusing me of what you would do if our positions were reversed.

When you see the same person make the same claims over and over again while always going for what that claim is the best build. Yes you are a min maxer. It would be different if you talked about various ways to accomplish a task. I have seen you do the with knight niman disciple. as if there is only one way to make a jedi.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

When you see the same person make the same claims over and over again while always going for what that claim is the best build. Yes you are a min maxer. It would be different if you talked about various ways to accomplish a task. I have seen you do the with knight niman disciple. as if there is only one way to make a jedi.

What claims have I made about niman-disciple?

That the best form and the one with the second most utility is ataru striker

That niman-disciple was my preferred lightsaber form because it's the second best lightsaber form and the one that is most well rounded, and has the most utility.

That because it was well rounded that it works well in combination with a lot of other specs/ i.e. that it was a good way to round out a build.

That there were good reasons to choose another lightsaber spec, e.g. if it utilized the a characters best attribute, or they wanted improved reflect/parry.

Yes I said all of those things.... but all of them are explicitly counter to min-maxing/building a one trick pony.

Btw while I haven't made the claim you accuse me of, Donovan Morningfire ,before there was a jedi career, said niman disciple was the best/most representative single (FaD) spec way to build a jedi. Since I never made that claim, you'll have to take it up with him, but I suspect he changed his mind after they released a jedi career in the clone wars books.

7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

What claims have I made about niman-disciple?

That the best form and the one with the second most utility is ataru striker

That niman-disciple was my preferred lightsaber form because it's the second best lightsaber form and the one that is most well rounded, and has the most utility.

That because it was well rounded that it works well in combination with a lot of other specs/ i.e. that it was a good way to round out a build.

That there were good reasons to choose another lightsaber spec, e.g. if it utilized the a characters best attribute, or they wanted improved reflect/parry.

Yes I said all of those things.... but all of them are explicitly counter to min-maxing/building a one trick pony.

Btw while I haven't made the claim you accuse me of, Donovan Morningfire ,before there was a jedi career, said niman disciple was the best/most representative single (FaD) spec way to build a jedi. Since I never made that claim, you'll have to take it up with him, but I suspect he changed his mind after they released a jedi career in the clone wars books.

I said min max and that is a min max attitude. I dont approach character generation in that manner because I am not trying to be the person who does it all. I tend to leave room for other character to be in the party. And you may claim to not make that argument. But I have literally watched you go on for 30 pages with Tramp doing just that.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I said min max and that is a min max attitude. I dont approach character generation in that manner because I am not trying to be the person who does it all. I tend to leave room for other character to be in the party. And you may claim to not make that argument. But I have literally watched you go on for 30 pages with Tramp doing just that.

As I have said repeatedly, the goal is to be second best at everything, that leaves room for everyone else in the party to be the best at anything they want and adequately fill any roles that the rest of the party chose to leave unfilled. Optimizing for utility is the exact opposite of min maxing, the exact opposite of being the one trick pony. The only thing it has in common with min maxing is that optimization was involved.

However even optimizing for utility, ranks below character concept... sometimes a character concept requires a character to be bad at something.

The 30 pages with Tramp you're referring to is him saying niman is the worst lightsaber form, him claiming that I said it was the best, and me saying no ataru striker is the best, but niman disciple is the second best lightsaber form spec and the one that is the most balanced/has the most utility.

You can go back and check if you care to, but that's what was said (there were a bunch of other people having related conversations with Tramp in the thread, I didn't post in that thread nearly as much as you are suggesting)

You keep saying that. It doesnt make it so. It does tend to result in a character that can easily steal the spotlight.

On 6/1/2020 at 11:21 PM, Daeglan said:

So you think characters should appear fully formed and have no history.

Coming in late to discussion and a bit off target, but some of my favorite games have been with high-CP/Level starting characters. One of by best Pathfinder characters started at 10th an proceeded from there. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a history, I gave a history that befitted a 10th level character. Just as I can provide a background/history to a character in SWRPG that starts off with 600-1000XP

double post

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You keep saying that. It doesnt make it so. It does tend to result in a character that can easily steal the spotlight.

You are correct that ME SAYING IT is not what make it so; I refer you to the dictionary definition of min maxing

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/min-max

The definition is in terms of skill points so it is a bit dated, but it generalizes to

minimizing almost everything so you can put all your resources into and be god like in the few things you do care about.

Which is exactly what I told you.

Maximizing utility tends to result in a character who is sharing the spotlight off to the side of it rather than at the center of the spotlight, playing second fiddle to the primary character in the scene, or who might be the primary character in a scene when the players split the party to accomplish 2 objectives and the normally primary character for the area of expertise is in the other group. So yes the character is active in most scenes as the secondary character, a foil the primary character plays off of, but 1) it's not stealing the spotlight and 2) it offers more opportunities for roleplaying and 3) it has nothing to do with min maxing.

Edit: Here's a longer discussion of min maxing

https://www.giantbomb.com/min-maxing/3015-128/

14 minutes ago, Varlie said:

Coming in late to discussion and a bit off target, but some of my favorite games have been with high-CP/Level starting characters. One of by best Pathfinder characters started at 10th an proceeded from there. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a history, I gave a history that befitted a 10th level character. Just as I can provide a background/history to a character in SWRPG that starts off with 600-1000XP

This.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

This.

You seem to mistake me not liking the way you build your characters for wanting base characters. When what I am saying is starting in Padawan then shifting into Knight makes more sense.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You seem to mistake me not liking the way you build your characters for wanting base characters. When what I am saying is starting in Padawan then shifting into Knight makes more sense.

You are welcome to your opinion, and if it works for you, I support you. But in the same way, I support other people starting as knight through quick path to power if that's what works for them/their character concept.

Question does this mean we've worked through our issues? I thought it was worth sacrificing this thread to accomplish that.

4 hours ago, dreenan said:

It would be an option to just stop answering . You draw answers again and again on purpose.

You are correct, that was very observant of you. Some point earlier in the thread I decided to sacrifice the thread so Daeglan and I could work out our issues.