My question would be part rules/part narrative.
Are there rules for changing schools/having ranks in multiple schools? If not, are there homebrew rules created that seem to work reasonably well?
Also, storywise, what circumstances would allow someone to do that. Is marrying into another clan such a circumstance?
any answers would help. Thanks.
There are no rules for changing schools, and I would advise against it from a balance perspective. Some schools like Hida Defender or Hiruma Scout have school abilities that are already very good at rank 1. Having a Hide Defender Rank 3 and a Hida Defender 1/Kuni Purifier 2 can make the first one feel obsolete, since both can do the same and the latter can also cast invocations. Of course, in a more story-focused game, this will matter less.
The closest the rules come to such multiclassing are the rules for the False Identity Disadvantage: "At the GM's discretion, a character in this situation who reaches rank 2 in their actual school may spend 2 XP to learn the basics of their false school's regimen through direct exposure. If they do, the character gains the capacity to use the school ability of their false school once per game session as if they were rank 1 in that school. A character can only ever benefit from one false school in this manner."
So a PC changing into a different school could follow these rules.
As for story reasons, a lot can be imagined. Not all clans will be open to teach their school secrets to spouses marrying into the clan. But everything from a deep infiltrator to someone changing their life is imaginable. At least when it comes to ronin schools, there is little reason to believe that the school techniques have to be closely guarded secrets. So if a group heavily breaks the Bushido tenets, it is entirely believable that their clan exiles them, which could be covered rules-wise with them not being able to continue their school üprogression and having to advance in a ronin school until the have repaired their reputation. Actually, a dueling school apostate who leaves, develops her own style and come back to challenge her former masters is a well-known story beat, not only in Usagi Jojimbo.
So while from a story perspective, this is entirely possible and may make for a great character story, the rules-side is more problematic.
3 hours ago, Nagasadow81 said:Are there rules for changing schools/having ranks in multiple schools? If not, are there homebrew rules created that seem to work reasonably well?
I would like to add my voice to choir of those recommending against it.
If you look at a school, it's really just:
Remember, the curriculum is not binding, it's only advisory.
Now, many of the rank 1 "School Techniques" (mentioned in 3. above) are very powerful, leading schools to be what's often called 'front loaded'. Essentially, allowing people to take the first rank of many schools would either
So no, I really can't recommend this, from a mechanics point of view.
PS: I still really f***ing hate this stupid editor that these forums are forcing us to use!
Then I'll be the contrarian and say that you can totally do it and it's not super broken or anything. Yes, the school abilities are great and just dipping your toes into a lot of them gives a lot of power, but a second one isn't utterly out of line.
The game expects play at a fairly high power level, and so that one tech isn't going to really change things.
The big question is the narrative - most people won't be trained in two full schools after all.
If you wanted to, the easiest way would be to treat it much like a title. You get the R1 curriculum and can spend XP on that or your original school. Possibly unlocking the school ability only after completing R1 in the new school.
As pointed out above, there is nothing preventing a character from picking up skills and techniques out of their school curriculum. However, the school rank advancement will be much slower. The only major difference between the schools that is exclusive is the school rank dependent ability and the rank 6 ability.
Yeah, I'll add my two zeni here and say don't do this. Certain advanced schools in the previous editions became certain titles (like Kenshizen and Witch Hunter). Also, there's no more mechanical restriction (advantage points) to be a student of a school of a different clan, you just need to discuss with the GM how that came to be and can give some interesting hooks. But becoming a multi-school character like Kuwanan in previous editions? **** no. I'd just say Kuwanan is an Akodo trained samurai who picked up some kata mentioned in the Daidoji curriculum along the way.
Agreed. If I really wanted to do this I'd take a wierd mix of clan/family/school to show when you moved or else use path of waves with the GM to create a custom school with elements of both.
1 hour ago, neilcell said:As pointed out above, there is nothing preventing a character from picking up skills and techniques out of their school curriculum. However, the school rank advancement will be much slower. The only major difference between the schools that is exclusive is the school rank dependent ability and the rank 6 ability.
The only other thing I can think of is your ability to buy techniques: you're limited to techniques of your school rank aside from preferential slots, and access to those depends on your school rank anyway.
4 hours ago, neilcell said:The only major difference between the schools that is exclusive is the school rank dependent ability and the rank 6 ability.
As mentioned above.
I mean, according to Max Brooke, it's basically only not in the book because it takes a lot of space to properly explain and they didn't have that space.
The game can handle it just fine - as long as you can find a good narrative reason, go for it and have fun.
8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:The only other thing I can think of is your ability to buy techniques: you're limited to techniques of your school rank aside from preferential slots, and access to those depends on your school rank anyway.
True. A Bushi or Courtier school will not usually have access to Invocations. So I stand corrected. So, yes technique acquisition maybe limited by type, but the options are only limited by one's imagination (or lack thereof).
Edited by neilcellOkay, I don't think changing schools is a good idea, but I also believe in finding the ways something could work. I've had a lot of harebrained schemes that get pooh-poohed, but, dangit, I'm gonna try anyway. So here's my thoughts:
Changing schools should be exceedingly rare. A Kakita marrying into the Akodo family is still a duelist, not a general. In most instances, you would want to just learn a few skills or techniques consistent with the family you joined. That's fine. Actually changing schools should require a complete commitment to their ways.
I would do this by just switching to the new school's curriculum. A rank 2 Bushi who completely commits to the new school would begin using their curriculum at Rank 3.
Now, a few notes. I don't think I would ever allow someone to become a shugenja. I may allow a shugenja to become a courtier, but probably not a bushi. Monks are a whole new can of worms that I would be very leery of. For "available techniques," it's a little tricky. The GM should decide if they keep their original techniques, or if they must switch to the new ones. The player should not be allowed to choose (but should be informed). For example, most Shugenja have Rituals, Shuji and Invocations, while most Courtiers have Kata, Rituals and Shuji. A shugenja who became a courtier would never be able to learn another invocation if they had to switch to Kata, so they should probably keep their original techniques available. They might pick up a stray Kata from their new curriculum, but that shouldn't be too troublesome. Of course, without Invocations on their curriculum, they'll advance very slowly each time they take one.
As to School Abilities, I would never, ever, EVER allow a single character to have two of them. Absolutely out of the question. Most school abilities come in two parts. The first is not rank-dependent, the second is dependent, but usually comes with diminishing returns. Consider the Hida Defender. He ignores the Cumbersome quality of armor he wears, and may reduce the severity of crits by his Armor+Rank. Both cool abilities. As he goes up in Rank, that Crit Resistance goes up slowly.
Now consider the Hiruma Scout. After Attacking, he can change stances, which is considered by many to be a broken technique. If he does so, he can raise the TN to hit him by large critters by his school rank. Potentially very helpful, but also extremely circumstantial. So a Hida who became a Hiruma would wear heavy armor without penalty, could switch stances after attacking, would be extremely crit resistant, and if fighting something big, could raise his TN to be hit. That's too much. Far too much.
17 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:I would do this by just switching to the new school's curriculum. A rank 2 Bushi who completely commits to the new school would begin using their curriculum at Rank 3.
When I first was thinking about it, I thought it would be interesting to do a title, but then I came across a few roadblocks to the idea, and came to the same conclusion as you. Once they completed the rank they were in, they would just start the next rank in the new school.
9 hours ago, KveldUlfr said:When I first was thinking about it, I thought it would be interesting to do a title, but then I came across a few roadblocks to the idea, and came to the same conclusion as you. Once they completed the rank they were in, they would just start the next rank in the new school.
I'd be fine with this as long as you lost your original school ability for the new school ability.
11 minutes ago, T_Kageyasu said:I'd be fine with this as long as you lost your original school ability for the new school ability.
I would agree with Grand Falloon. You would not lose your previous school ability. You would not get the new school ability. You would just be continuing from the next rank into the new school.
Edit: Added Grand, because he did not go to school for that long to not be called Grand.
Disagree hard on this. A second school works great as a Title.
The end results:
That honestly seems really balanced to me. Yes, some school abilities are sort of "front-loaded", and give a pretty big bang for that initial buck of investment, but for the most part you have to put a LOT of resources in to get the real pay-off and (as always) those are resources that you're not putting into your main school or other titles.
(Note 1: should be obvious, but if you want to make it possible to "abandon" progression in your current school altogether, you change the pre-req to "Rank 1 in any school" or "Rank 2 in any school")
(Note 2: should also be obvious, but if you want to limit options you could make the pre-req "Rank X in a [type] of school you already belong to." That way a character can't suddenly go from being, say, a bushi to being a shugenja. Personally it doesn't bother me -- plenty of narrative reasons to shift your career path in a more extreme direction; to take up arms or put them down, to retire to a monastery or leave one, etc.)
I think titles work great as dips. Not as full changes. But ymmv.
6 hours ago, KveldUlfr said:I would agree with Grand Falloon. You would not lose your previous school ability. You would not get the new school ability. You would just be continuing from the next rank into the new school.
Edit: Added Grand, because he did not go to school for that long to not be called Grand.
Certainly not both, but I could narratively understand arguments for relearning and fully embracing a new school. I think it's probably just better to take a new title unless a completely different career makes more sense.
Wow, thanks guys. This is all great and thanks for the replies
