Ok,

First off this is a narrative/opinion question not a RAW question (although if RAW puts a requirement other than fr 3 on master, that would be relevant, I didn't spot it in the book and I doubt there's errata to that effect)

So the question boils down to "Did obiwan have the jedi master spec during attack of the clones?"

The era is prequel if that effects your answer

I think obiwan was narratively a knight in attack of the clones, but he had Anakin as a padawan very near knighthood.

Should you have the master (or teacher) spec (not necessarily filled out) before taking a padawan?

Should you have to have a padawan to qualify for master?

Should you have to have trained an padawan to knighthood before taking master?

Does taking the spec mean your a master?

Could you take the master spec and not be a narrative master, and have to get to the bottom of the tree being a master?

Should there be an age requirement, so that a human wunderkind who got knighted at 13 or 14 have to wait until his mid to late 20's before achieving the rank of master?

anakin was definitely not a master when he took asokha as padawan. you don't need to be a master to train a padawan

the master spec represent a level of competence, force attunement and enlightenment, it's eventually recognized by peers that you became a master, but it's not a prerequisite to be declared a master by others before being allowed the spec. You don't need to have trained a padawan to be a master though I recall that in legends it was considered an important step to be recognized as one

and strength and competence has nothing to do with age though it often goes hand in hand, especially considering that species have different lifespans

1 minute ago, MB -Fr- said:

anakin was definitely not a master when he took asokha as padawan. you don't need to be a master to train a padawan

the master spec represent a level of competence, force attunement and enlightenment, it's eventually recognized by peers that you became a master, but it's not a prerequisite to be declared a master by others before being allowed the spec. You don't need to have trained a padawan to be a master though I recall that in legends it was considered an important step to be recognized as one

and strength and competence has nothing to do with age though it often goes hand in hand, especially considering that species have different lifespans

So you're saying Anakin could have taken the master spec while not being a narrative master?

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

So you're saying Anakin could have taken the master spec while not being a narrative master?

he could have

I don't see him as a master type, lacking serenity for that but he could have

I think it is a part of the "Learn one, Do one, Teach one" Methodology. Having taught the basics of swordsmanship I realized you don't really understand something till you have to teach it to someone else. Which I believe is why in martial arts schools the beginners have most of the basics taught by students not the master. So I think part of what the Master spec represents is that insight you get from teaching others.

I had always been under the impression that you were promoted to Master for successfully training a Padawan, which is part of why Anakin was denied the rank of Master even though he was put on the council. (Note that he didn't "successfully" train Ahsoka, as she never "graduated")

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

So the question boils down to "Did obiwan have the jedi master spec during attack of the clones?"

No, because Obi-Wan is a movie character in a script that isn't even aware the Master spec exists.

And in the game, Obi-Wan is an NPC who doesn't have specs.

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I think obiwan was narratively a knight in attack of the clones, but he had Anakin as a padawan very near knighthood.

That's pretty much spot on, I think.

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Should you have the master (or teacher) spec (not necessarily filled out) before taking a padawan?

No. Many Jedi with Padawans aren't Masters. Of course the correct form of adress for any Jedi seemingly being "master Jedi" troubles the waters.

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Should you have to have a padawan to qualify for master?

No, but you probably should have had one at some point.

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Should you have to have trained an padawan to knighthood before taking master?

Probably not technically, but I think it would definitely be very unusual if you hadn't trained at least one and probably a couple of Padawans.

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Does taking the spec mean your a master?

No, specs and careers are just game mechanics. Taking the Bounty Hunter career doesn't necessarily mean you make your money by capturing and selling criminals. Taking the Jedi career doesn't necessarily mean you have any connection to the Jedi.

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Could you take the master spec and not be a narrative master, and have to get to the bottom of the tree being a master?

Absolutely.

You could also take the Master spec and never be part of the Jedi Order at all.

And of course you could be given the rank of Master by the Jedi Order without ever taking the Master spec, or even buying into the Jedi career at all.

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Should there be an age requirement, so that a human wunderkind who got knighted at 13 or 14 have to wait until his mid to late 20's before achieving the rank of master?

Not when there's a war on and there's Knights and Masters falling like flies. But normally the main requirement is wisdom and maturity, and that doesn't generally come easy to super-talented wunderkids (like Anakin, for instance).

On 5/26/2020 at 6:51 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I had always been under the impression that you were promoted to Master for successfully training a Padawan, which is part of why Anakin was denied the rank of Master even though he was put on the council. (Note that he didn't "successfully" train Ahsoka, as she never "graduated")

This is correct and was well established. Infact, I think Ahsoka's ending puts a nice twist in that scene: Anakin is so angry because the only reason she didn't become a knight is the failure of the same people telling him this, turning it from a random temper tantrum to being rightfully annoyed. Some truly exceptional instances have gotten master another way, like Yaddle spending hundreds of years in captivity meditating on the force, escaping and overthrowing a corrupt government made her skip from padawan to master. This is the exception and done on an individual basis.

There was a lot of talk during Phantom Menace of Qui-gonn not making master as he didn't align with the council's views of things. I doubt anyone questioned his wisdom and skill.

1 hour ago, MrTInce said:

There was a lot of talk during Phantom Menace of Qui-gonn not making master as he didn't align with the council's views of things. I doubt anyone questioned his wisdom and skill.

Qui-Gon Jinn was a Jedi Master. There is a difference between the rank of Master and the political position of Jedi High Councillor.

one thing that is not clear is being a master and being on the council are not the same thing. Usually being a master is a prerequisite of being on the council. Being a master does not put you on the council.

7 hours ago, NanashiAnon said:

This is correct and was well established. Infact, I think Ahsoka's ending puts a nice twist in that scene: Anakin is so angry because the only reason she didn't become a knight is the failure of the same people telling him this, turning it from a random temper tantrum to being rightfully annoyed. Some truly exceptional instances have gotten master another way, like Yaddle spending hundreds of years in captivity meditating on the force, escaping and overthrowing a corrupt government made her skip from padawan to master. This is the exception and done on an individual basis.

It does add weight to how much the council was F'ing over Anakin. The council in many was brought the Empire upon the Galaxy by their douchey behavior towards everyone. I think they became too enamored with the power and influence they got from the Senate.

I know it’s already been said, but I’ll pile on. Being a master means showing a mastery of the force, usually although not always, exemplified by having successfully trained a Jedi knight.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

one thing that is not clear is being a master and being on the council are not the same thing. Usually being a master is a prerequisite of being on the council. Being a master does not put you on the council.

There were examples is Legends of non-master council members. Ki-Adi-Mundi was not a master during phantom menace.

7 minutes ago, MrTInce said:

There were examples is Legends of non-master council members. Ki-Adi-Mundi was not a master during phantom menace.

Do you have a citation for that?

8 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Do you have a citation for that?

That would some dark horse comics late 90s early 00s ... I recall the stories, I have them somewhere.

I'm not sure it's still the going narrative, or canon as some call it.

7 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Do you have a citation for that?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ki-Adi-Mundi/Legends

"Mundi was held in high regard by members of the Jedi High Council, on which he occasionally sat in during the absence of Master Micah Giiett. He was eventually offered a permanent seat on the Council despite not yet having obtained the rank of Jedi Master."

7 hours ago, MrTInce said:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ki-Adi-Mundi/Legends

"Mundi was held in high regard by members of the Jedi High Council, on which he occasionally sat in during the absence of Master Micah Giiett. He was eventually offered a permanent seat on the Council despite not yet having obtained the rank of Jedi Master."

Huh. Wookieepedia doesn't give a citation for it, so I'm cautious about accepting it as gospel, but that's interesting.

11 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Huh. Wookieepedia doesn't give a citation for it, so I'm cautious about accepting it as gospel, but that's interesting.

Stuff from the old EU was never gospel, even back then; it was always apocrypha at best [except in extremely rare cases where Lucas was personally the driving force behind it, like with The Force Unleashed].

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

Stuff from the old EU was never gospel, even back then; it was always apocrypha at best [except in extremely rare cases where Lucas was personally the driving force behind it, like with The Force Unleashed].

The fact that Lucas was behind the force unleashed is...disappointing.

Darth Vader, the Jedi hunter. The fearsome Sith Lord.

”Yeah, but do you remember that kid who beat him up and then came back and beat him and the emperor up? Then just kind of left.”

On 6/5/2020 at 10:30 AM, yoink101 said:

The fact that Lucas was behind the force unleashed is...disappointing.

Darth Vader, the Jedi hunter. The fearsome Sith Lord.

”Yeah, but do you remember that kid who beat him up and then came back and beat him and the emperor up? Then just kind of left.”

To be fair the book was never as bad as the game. He barely beat Vader and was subsequently crushed by Sidious. He attacks Sidious with a telekinetic assault who then randomly drops to his knees and feigns weakness (the book outright states he was feigning weakness to it's not as ambiguous as.. say.. revenge of the Sith.) After which when that fails to get him to try to strike him down he kills him. There's no fight between them.

As for Vader in the EU Vader reached his peak in Empire Strikes Back. So he didn't even defeat the most powerful version of Vader. Still an impressive feat but yeah. In the novel he also didn't continue using dark side powers after "Switching sides." he embraced the light completely. No force lightning. Also he barely defeated Shaak'ti.

In the novel his star destroyer feat is less impressive too. It was already falling out of the sky. He just nudged it enough to manipulate where it would land. No yanking it out of the sky.

Note I'm still not a fan of the novel or force unleashed just pointing out it isn't AS bad as people think.

*Back on track* I think Jedi Master is more a state of mind than abilities also I don't think careers should be set in stone. Heck, just because you take that career doesn't mean that's literally what you are. It's just a collection of talents and abilities that make sense for your character. You don't even have to RP that they are full fledged professions. So a Jedi Master could easily have the Jedi Master tree or be an experienced Niman, sage, healer. It's really up to you on how you roleplay it out or what you want your character to be. In the end by "Raw" is what you decide a Jedi Master means. Just my opinion.

The Jedi Master specialisation only means that the character has enough mastery of the Force to have a Force Rating of 3. That means he / she spends enough XPs to get this FR without asking to get it only by choosing the Jedi career then taking Padawan and Knight spec, or Quick path to Power and Knigh or General, as specialisations.

Choosing any other career, even one that doesn't give a FR, can work as long as the PC buys the specialisations and then talents from those that'll give him / her the FR3.