4 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Oh, I really like this. Sort of gives Resistance a flavor text of "Alternate Firing Arcs - Flexibility-Faction." Their current faction identity is meant to be sort of Ace-y, kind of beefy, but just a little too costly. Except that they can be out-Aced and out-Beefed pretty easily. But if they become the "Alternate Firing Arcs" faction. Well, that's unique identity, baby!

Yes that's how it seemed to me when I came up with it. Faction identity is flakey at the moment. Imps are Aces, Rebels are beef and synergy, Scum are shenanigans, Republic are force users, Seperatist are swarms.

First order and Resistance aren't clearly defined?

If Resistance became adaptive Alternate Firing Arcs. I think it would be a nice design space to fill. The extra time on target might pull the faction up that small notch.

No, the Republic are a proud clone brotherhood let by small number of Jedi. But it's mostly clones ... please?

45 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

First order and Resistance aren't clearly defined?

It feels like Resistance are meant to be the combo faction, using their upgrades to do really weird things other factions can't. Similar to Scum, but with more of an emphasis on using the combo to improve your guys rather than hamper the enemy.

First Order are... value pieces? Extremely high performance ships, but relatively low numbers (FOcho aside... and even then, I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't strictly inferior to other swarms and is just getting undeserved attention because Hux memes).

So, are Tractor Beam T70s a bad call?

3pts to give the chassis a range 3 weapon that denies range bonus and potentially can wreck the target's vector or even block an incoming shot.

If I was gonna put any points into a secondary weapon on the T70 after Black One, I'm intrigued to use Tractor, even though I can't stand the thought for thematic reasons.

Autoblaster T70s have seen a rise lately, if only for the occasional increased damage output, especially with Marksmanship in extended.

EDIT:

Is Tractor Beam the answer for Poe?

Never use the primary. Never do damage. Just shoot first, drop target agility, mess up positions, and let your 3 Rookies clean up?

Now I'm very interested.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

So, are Tractor Beam T70s a bad call?

3pts to give the chassis a range 3 weapon that denies range bonus and potentially can wreck the target's vector or even block an incoming shot.

If I was gonna put any points into a secondary weapon on the T70 after Black One, I'm intrigued to use Tractor, even though I can't stand the thought for thematic reasons.

Autoblaster T70s have seen a rise lately, if only for the occasional increased damage output, especially with Marksmanship in extended.

EDIT:

Is Tractor Beam the answer for Poe?

Never use the primary. Never do damage. Just shoot first, drop target agility, mess up positions, and let your 3 Rookies clean up?

Now I'm very interested.

Its an idea I have thought of but have yet to actually try.

Also I don't think Tractor beam has the missle icon that indicates it ignores range bonuses.

43 minutes ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

Also I don't think Tractor beam has the missle icon that indicates it ignores range bonuses.

Wow. Yep! I think you're right.

That 'ol first edition brain kicking in again.

Nevermind! Yeah, without negating the defender's agility bonus at range 3, I don't think I'd ever equip a TBeam that I might fire 1 or 2 times a tournament for the off-chance I could move someone on a rock.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

Wow. Yep! I think you're right.

That 'ol first edition brain kicking in again.

Nevermind! Yeah, without negating the defender's agility bonus at range 3, I don't think I'd ever equip a TBeam that I might fire 1 or 2 times a tournament for the off-chance I could move someone on a rock.

Full disclosure: I’ve not yet had the chance to see much Tractor Beam action.

That said, isn’t the true power of Tractoring the reduced agility? Sure, occasionally nailing someone to a rock is great, I bet, but if you can muster up 2-3 follow-up attacks from allies, that’s gotta be when it feels like you’re really doing it. Right?

In any event, don’t feel weird about Tractor Beams on your T-70. If you had ever played the TIE Fighter PC game, the Empire equipped tractors to all sorts of starfighters. They never felt weird there, and T-70’s are decades more advanced than the ships that carried a Tractor Beams in those games. It was always a very subtle effect, just flip a switch and anything in your bullseye just... sloooowed waaaay doooown for as long as you kept them centered, or until your beam energy became depleted.

I've seen quad T-70s with tractor beams in action before in my group. Everyone should give it a go at least once in a casual game. Keep a loose formation and the X-Wing with the best shot on a given target goes first. If the attack is successful, not only are the Squad mates benefitting from the reduced agility but you can boost or barrel roll the victim into a closer range band. It's pretty nasty when the stats align.

3 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

That said, isn’t the true power of Tractoring the reduced agility? Sure, occasionally nailing someone to a rock is great, I bet, but if you can muster up 2-3 follow-up attacks from allies, that’s gotta be when it feels like you’re really doing it. Right?

Tractor beam can have 4 effects: reduce agility, deny a shot by moving onto an asteroid, deal damage through obstacles, and denying actions+extra damage in following turns.
The reason we see so little use of tractor beams is the opportunity cost. You lose an entire attack, and the reduced agility may or may not compensate that. You can run the numbers. For example: 4 attacks with 3 dice+focus against 2dice+focus, or 3 attacks with 3dice+focus vs 1die+focus is almost identical at 5.14 vs 5.07. 4 attacks have a higher ceiling of course. You pay one attack to maybe get the same result, and that is if the stars align. The same is true at 3agility dice with focus (3.73 vs 3.70 damage), or 1 to 0 agility (6.85 vs 6.75). For completion's sake, you obviously get a better deal if you can change range bands with the movement. Usually, tractor beam is not the correct choice to deal damage.

But if you manage to deny an entire shot for your opponent then that can be amazing! It is obviously irrelevant against swarms, but 3 and maybe 4 ship lists will lose a chunk of their own attack. So while your own offense stays largely neutral with tractor beam, it is actually a good defensive tool!
There's obviously a chance for extra damage if you move onto an asteroid, but also that you obstruct your own attacks, so again the offensive part of tractor beam is not the important part.

The cool thing is that tractor beam has counterplay by staying away from obstacles. The bad thing is that the counterplay can easily result in stalemates.

If I place any Cannon on the T-70 it tends to be auto-blasters. Especially a good consideration for Nien and Ello.

I played with Tactorbeam when I was running my XXXx list. Having Snap take the first shot at it but as GreenDragoon points out, the numbers are about the same and that's if you manage to hit with it, if you don't your in a worse place.

Can't say if this would be a better addition on Cova? Maybe be on the turns your you aren't doing red maneuvers.

Is there a good cannon for T-70?

Has anyone actually chosen to use a Jamming beam in any situation? I've had one experience using it to strip a token stacker which actually swung a game for me, it was a hail mary.

It's overlooked possibly with ships with Reinforce. If we look at GreenDragoon's example Poe with 3x t-70 with focus, against a 1 die Reinforced target. If they all shoot your looking at 4.7 hits. If Poe Jams and the rest attack your looking at 5.6.

HLC is only good for the Ace's, but gets into the points bloat territory in my mind.

Ion Cannon better across the board initiatives. Yet it's the same issue as HLC, for 5-6 points that's Herioc and PA.

11 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

HLC is only good for the Ace's, but gets into the points bloat territory in my mind.

Ion Cannon better across the board initiatives. Yet it's the same issue as HLC, for 5-6 points that's Herioc and PA.

Absolutely agree on "points bloat".

That's why I wrote about being pro-no talents on T70s in general (barring 1pt Crack Shots).

T70, for their price, absolutely NEED to have utility.

Heroic, by itself, doesn't really grant that, except at its most basic level of, "my 45 point Heroic Red Vet is going to bug you with unmodddd three die attacks until you focus him down for 3-5 shots", kind of HP pressure.

But even that angle on utility is outmatched by a single pair of Vultures with Discord Missiles, so you're really fishing if you're building a Resistance squad and just wanting to throw down some Heroic HP without any other utility...

_________

Resistance needs to generate difficult decisions for their opponent - choices that they can stumble over.

Resistance doesn't swarm as well as others, doesn't hit as well as others, doesn't run as well as others, doesn't ace as well as others .....

Resistance has to muddy the game state enough to win by helping the opponent fall on their own sword.

20 hours ago, Bucknife said:

...I don't think I'd ever equip a TBeam that I might fire 1 or 2 times a tournament for the off-chance I could move someone on a rock.

Asterisk on this whole page. *

I think our discussion is making think I've been doing Resistance wrong this whole time.

Maybe Tractor Beam SHOULD be the first 3 points I put on my T70s after Black One, even if both the weapon and effects have been nerfed in 2e...

13 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

Is there a good cannon for T-70?

I don’t have a ton of tabletop experience with them, but I’ve enjoyed flying a pair of HLC R4 Heroic Black Aces. Keep their wings closed and reposition your way to glorious 4-dice bullseyes at any range. And if you get boxed in, just flip the wings and get your 3-dice arc back.

I dunno. Hardpoint seems like a really nice aspect of the T-70. Obviously a points sink if you make it one, but it lets you buy some utility.

9 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Resistance doesn't swarm as well as others, doesn't hit as well as others, doesn't run as well as others, doesn't ace as well as others .....

Resistance has to muddy the game state enough to win by helping the opponent fall on their own sword.

Essentially it's currently the Jack of all, master of none.

With no inherent advantages but at the same time no exploitable weaknesses.

Resistance is that faction if you don't make any mistakes you can usually win the game, but make one and you can't recover from it, which is a hard place to play from.

If Resistance was the faction that used its opponents strength against them,as you say, fall on thier own sword, then that would be a good place to be. It should be the countering faction. It's already leaning that way.

Eg.

Ferrosphere paint price correctly is a deterrent from alpha strikes and action economical aces.

Korr Sella is countering stress stacking shenanigans.

Herioc is countering variance.

A few more abilities that nullify the strengths of the opposing factions would be the direction I'd take it. The Resistance would be living up to its name.

Something like a Luke crew that could have an ability to "counterspell" force use. "If an enemy ship spends a force token, you make spend a force to nullify its effect."

Becomes a real headache for a Republic list for example.

Could Han Solo be "Good, actually?"

65 points for an Init 6 with 3 red dice and 11 health doesn't seem that terrible. Going all the way to Rey gunner or Leia crew seems kind of expensive for what you get, but Chewbacca and/or Rey's MF title are pretty low cost.

I mean, most folks pretend Wedge's pilot ability is blank. Pretending Han's is blank, he's only 10 points more, but probably survives a decent few more attacks, about six vs about four focused 3-red attacks.

21 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Could Han Solo be "Good, actually?"

I'd definitely consider running vanilla Han.

Probably way better if you ensure you've got Leia crew on another ship (Cova or Pammich).

On 5/29/2020 at 8:43 PM, KiraYamatoSF said:

Its an idea I have thought of but have yet to actually try.

How many points would you like to see Poe drop from 68?

How about FerroPaint?

Anything else?

________

I think I'd be happy with a 62-66 Poe and hopefully a few points up on some of the other faction's aces.

2 pt Paint would be dope, but I'd be shocked if we got 4pt Paint.

Primed Thrusters are a little meh* for me right now too, but that means they're probably fine.

7 hours ago, Bucknife said:

How many points would you like to see Poe drop from 68?

How about FerroPaint?

Anything else?

________

I think I'd be happy with a 62-66 Poe and hopefully a few points up on some of the other faction's aces.

2 pt Paint would be dope, but I'd be shocked if we got 4pt Paint.

Primed Thrusters are a little meh* for me right now too, but that means they're probably fine.

I personally think 62 would be good for a while, same cost as Luke in Rebels. Yes he is Initiative 6 versus Luke's 5 and has 1 extra health in the form of a shield, but Luke has the Force and a pretty sweet ability. That is not to say Poe's is bad but between the two one limits how you fly the ship. Ever fly Poe against a Sloane Swarm? It SUCKS. With having the Force Luke is able to get double modifiers while attacking with no stress to worry about. Another boon for Luke is with his ability even if he spends both Force charges when he defends he gets one back, where if Poe uses both his Lock and Focus then he is left with nothing else unless he has Heroic or something, and that's not all that much. Plus seems fitting some of the big ace pilots for Rebels and Resistance costed the same.

Ferro paint I would like if it dropped to 2-4 points. At 6 I don't even think about it, at 2 it would be on my mind a bit, so maybe 3 or 4 would be best? Frankly the card seems more fun than anything, some ships never target lock in the first place and some ships that do have high maneuverability in the first place.

Other than that for Resistance I think the prices for the RZ-2, Fireball, and Pods are all good.

Transports Pam and Nodin could maybe drop a point or two, Cova feels good where she is and the generic feels good at 32, its the upgrades that feel more pricey.

Starfortress as a whole feels too pricey, Generics feel like they should be 50 points? But 4 on the board would feel like a slugfest, best answer I have for this and other ships is that the rules limit the number of large ships one can bring to a match to 2-3. Other than that probably a 2-3 point drop on all named Bombers.

Falcon... Maybe a 2 point drop for each?

T-70 is mixed

Good: Blue Rookie 42, Red Vet 44, Bastian 47

Okay but would like a drop: Jess 51 but would like 50, Nien 55 but would like 53-54

Lower Please: Black Ace 46, Jaycris 44-45, Joph 47, Kare 48, Temmin 49-50, Ello 52, Poe 62

Crew: Han 3, Larma 3, Connix 3, C3PO 5, GA 5, Korr 5 but 6 feels okay, PZ 4, Holdo 6, Rose 7

Dunno on Leia, she has a powerful ability that feels hard to price. Wouldn't mind a decrease but 17 is probably good?

Gunner: Paige 5, Finn 7, Rey 13

11 hours ago, Bucknife said:

How many points would you like to see Poe drop from 68?

How about FerroPaint?

Anything else?

________

I think I'd be happy with a 62-66 Poe and hopefully a few points up on some of the other faction's aces.

2 pt Paint would be dope, but I'd be shocked if we got 4pt Paint.

Primed Thrusters are a little meh* for me right now too, but that means they're probably fine.

Yeah I've been thinking Poe needs to be about 62-64 for a while. Probably agree with 62, I thinking a strong case can be made either way that he is better or worse than Luke. So 62 seems good, 7 points more than Wedge also seems reasonable, because he certainly isn't 13 points more ship.

Ferro Paint 1-2 points, its a very subjective ability. You may field it against CIS swarm and it not trigger once or have it against E-wings or Tie Advanced it with activating alot. Even for the latter it is more of a hindrance than anything else.

Primed Thrusters have been priced out of Resistance because they're too good on FO. You need to make them high but still within reach, 6-7 points across the board.

Sync Targeting computer... it's not being used but that's mainly because torps bloat the T-70's to much. Resistance hasn't really leaned into an Alpha strike list at all, that might change when the Resistance Y-wing hits tho and this tech might be great on them.

Maybe bring Lu'lo back down to 41 and Zizi up to 41.

Starfortress.. generics at 47-50, honestly I don't see 4 of them being that competitive. 3 of them with VTG, and bombs has more firepower and it's not a thing. Sure 48HP is a lot of HP for your opponent to wade through but without reinforce it doesn't take that long. Plus with it being mostly hull, criticals stack up quickly. FFG can at least try it and if its oppressive they can revert it.

Apart from that I pretty much agree with Kira's assessment.

It's possible that individual points are good, but the combination of pilots just doesn't fit well. Maybe worth to consider

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's possible that individual points are good, but the combination of pilots just doesn't fit well. Maybe worth to consider

That's a part of it, no doubt.

Something I mused on last week: "Imagine for a second Rey with Duchess and Soontir, or Poe with Whisper and Grand Inquisitor."

Heroic/R4/Black One Poe is 73 points. Swapping that for another faction's Init 6, Poe seems like he'd come out fairly well. Not necessarily better than the I6 he was traded for, but not that much worse. Flipside: Vader or Fenn Rau in Resistance instead of Poe probably fares a lot worse in Resistance than in their home factions.

//

However, even if it's the whole faction and the ways it doesn't fit together and not fine-in-the-abstract individual pieces, maybe the piece-points should still be changed. I think what's most important is that balance be achieved at a list level and a faction level, more than individual ship. That might be part of the issue with Imperial Triple Ace. Given the whole of their factions, having correctly priced aces is a mistake, since it leads to imbalanced lists and an imbalanced faction overall. It could be that Imperials need to have overpriced aces, since they've got so many options and can fit the pieces together really well.

Something like Resistance where the peices don't fit together well might need to be underpriced. Rey already might be.

When it comes to generic 3-red jousters, or 2-red fillers, I think they're mostly interchangeable, and it's reasonable to compare directly across factions. With Aces? Maybe that's not the case.

11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think what's most important is that balance be achieved at a list level and a faction level, more than individual ship.

I firmly believe that only list level matters.

Good balance at list level does not care about individual ships pricing - a single OP ship does not matter if the whole list is a fair 200pts of value. That's partially why Finn was not that imbalanced in Resistance, or why Zizi is now rather inconsequential besides one of the best pilot abilities.

And also, good balance at list level will result in fair lists. The faction might still be largely weak. We have seen examples, and currently separatists is likely one. Only the droid swarms are viable, but they are even too good. The other pieces are too weak. So, the faction is probably negatively imbalanced while few lists are positively(=too strong) imbalanced. But a good list balance leads to some fair lists, even if pieces are unplayable (TIE Aggressor anyone?).

18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Something like Resistance where the peices don't fit together well might need to be underpriced. Rey already might be.

When it comes to generic 3-red jousters, or 2-red fillers, I think they're mostly interchangeable, and it's reasonable to compare directly across factions. With Aces? Maybe that's not the case.

Exactly!

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Vader or Fenn Rau in Resistance instead of Poe probably fares a a lot worse.

Oh, man...I don't know about that.

11 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Oh, man...I don't know about that.

Well, probably could have phrased that better. Fares better than Poe in Resistance, fares worse than Fenn or Vader in their home factions.

35 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Oh, man...I don't know about that.

Nightmares of Vader + 3 RZ2s flashing through my mind....