RE: Spike vs Johnny:

Winning with Juke isn't about a cool combo that other people overlooked. I think folks often have rooted for underdog cards in this game, that's why Rebels with two Z-95s coming 2nd at worlds made so many people happy. But Juke isn't some underdog card that's under-appreciated because it's not cool. It's closer to blue control. If someone's winning by loading up on Counterspell effects, they probably aren't really Johnny in the first place.

This whole thread is about how people want A-Wings to be better because of how much folks just love A-Wings.

But. Juke. Is. Not. The. Answer.

Also, to get us back on topic, do think the RZ-2 would see as much play if all but two unique pilots were deleted? And if one of those pilots was zari, and the other was tallie? I highly doubt it would see much play, maybe tallie as an annoying defense helper in a few lists.

See something familiar?

Yeah, give the A-wing players more pilot and they'll figure out the rest

59 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Alternate theory: experienced X-wing players know what makes Juke problematic and the issue is very much general and not specific to phantoms

Granulating pricing can't 'fix' juke without becoming extraordinarily complicated. Making Juke unplayable and replacing it with a similar but healthier card is far simpler and easier

I trust the literal stated reason given by Max Brooke on why Juke went up in price. Because... he literally said so when it happened? And this is why Juke went up by very small increments rather than just shooting straight to 10, they clearly WANT it to work, and do not agree with your 'veteran take' that Juke is problematic because reasons.

Also, dynamic initiative pricing is a pretty... easy fix, considering you know for a fact that only like 4 pilots that aren't A-wings exist in the game that can get to I2 and use juke and none would be very good. Worst case scenario you 4/4/7/7/7/7. Not hard.

33 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It modifies only dice in the most unfun way possible

------

The "fix Juke" crowd need to realize that having your green dice messed with makes people uniquely unhappy, and this is a game we all play for fun. Juke cannot be saved.

I don't get why there is so much shame around just coming out and saying 'it doesn't make any logical sense because the effect is identical to my opponent getting an extra damage result, but it just doesn't feel good to lose the evade and it makes me sad.' Like, that is a valid as **** reason to get rid of a mechanic. I did try to point out I sympathize with this logic way more than a power one multiple times, and if this was always what you were trying to say I am sorry it didn't get through.

33 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Like, I just don't understand why JUKE of all things is the hill folks want to fight on.

Because too many people are pretending its a balance discussion when that doesn't remotely pass the sniff test.

The argument that its an NPE to have to switch from an evade to an eye is completely logical, because its not even a 'grief mechanic' like tractoring or ion which has to make you not like it happening as part of its function, it is an unintended aspect of the ability.

If Juke is to be banished for NPE, it needs to get way less subtle a nerf, like being hit to 12 or 15, so its mega double extra unambigously obvious you are never meant to use it. There is just as much of a cost of fun in being 'tricked' into trying something because it seems plausible but its deliberately bad, as it is to be exposed to an unfun mechanic in a game. I suspect more people have given up on X-wing after trying to make a list that spoke to them and it just not working than

23 minutes ago, svelok said:

This is part of the difference between a card game and a miniatures game (that has cards in it).

X-Wing makes for a good miniatures game, but a really mediocre card game. Pushing it to be more of the latter and less of the former is trading a good, unique thing, for a bad version of something you can get in so many other places.

Player expression is important in wargames too, and Johnnies, Timmies, and Spikes exist in them too. X-wing is fairly unique among wargames for disincentive upgrades and list customization so much. Compare to 40k, which had this problem earlier till they pivoted to 'default upgrades' so hard that some squads and characters had mandatory upgrade options baked into their price. Warhammer supports you just taking tons of meltaguns and you will still have a good time vs all infantry meta-imperial guard squads that hard counter that. It had Terminator Librarians and Captains for ages despite them being deeply non-meta, and priced them pretty decently despite it being objectively not a great call compared to artificer armor just because players love terminators. The entire concept of Deathwing exists! You want a goofy way to express you love how callous your IG army is? Congrats, you can spend a point to let your artillery fire into your own troops in close combat: its bad but it will secure you some crazy kills because the target can't move and it will cost them more points than you!

I can't say the same for X-wing, which is weird because personal expression is often more important in wargames than cardgames because your generally painting and naming and designing your own faction or army or characters. Johnnies gravitate pretty hard towards that, which is part of why the Space Marines are such a popular faction in 40k: In addition to other reasons, part of the sell is you can design your own heraldry and story and (now specifically to cater to Johnnies) chapter benefits that make your chapter unique.

This phenomina in minis is called 'your dudes' or 'your dudesism' and X-wing really de-emphasizes it with the named pilots, pre-painted ships, lack of modeling or assembly, and lack of framing story, it actually is why I couldn't get some avid minis players deeply into 40k into X-wing despite them liking Star Wars! So X-wing rides this weird line where part of the appeal is making 'fanfic squads' where Jyn rides along with Kyle because isn't it so silly they both stole the deathstar plans, but in most wargames your making your own guys.

Quote

This whole thread is about how people want A-Wings to be better because of how much folks just love A-Wings.

Correct, this is a rabbit hole and I am willing to just drop it, let anyone who wants to point out how I am a dummy do so and get the last word in, and continue hypothesizing about interesting 1-3 point upgrades that aren't juke and gushing about how much we all love A-wings.

7 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

and continue hypothesizing about interesting 1-3 point upgrades that aren't juke

You think Juke is the one and only savior of Awings?

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You think Juke is the one and only savior of Awings?

No. I was saying the opposite. The Juke discussion was a rabbit hole (a tangent that goes too far away from the main discussion) that is related to A-wings, but not their only savior/issue/whatever.

4 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

No. I was saying the opposite. The Juke discussion was a rabbit hole (a tangent that goes too far away from the main discussion) that is related to A-wings, but not their only savior/issue/whatever.

Gotcha. I was confused because you spent a lot of time on arguing for Juke in a thread on inproving A-wings.

Oh yeah. This is about A-Wings XD.

Well, the fundamental mechanics of the A-Wing are not going to change, so that leaves cards and cost (and I agree the A-Wing needs more pilots). Like someone said a few pages back, what about missiles? In Lore, wasn't their main "punch" from missiles and not their cannons?

The problem is, without a way to modify defense, they pop too easily, so it is hard to get a TL. I guess you could bring Dutch, but that seems like a lot of work just to get an A-Wing to fire a missile. What about another "focus" missile of some sort? That would also help the lower Init. A-Wings. Or even bringing back X-1 Tracer missiles could help A-Wings, Z-95s, etc.

6 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

I trust the literal stated reason given by Max Brooke on why Juke went up in price. Because... he literally said so when it happened? And this is why Juke went up by very small increments rather than just shooting straight to 10, they clearly WANT it to work, and do not agree with your 'veteran take' that Juke is problematic because reasons.

And in this case, the developers didn't know better than the player base. Quad Juke Phantoms was one of the stronger lists that could compete Squad of Legend in the launch season, and that list was hilariously underpriced. They adjusted point to allow Quad Phantoms with 3 Juke and a Crack Shot which they were wrong to allow as well, and Quad Phantoms were frickin' everywhere during the Spring 2019 season. The playerbase knew they were a problem, raised the alarm, but it wasn't until Quad Phantom wrecked everyone but Rebel Beefs shop, winning several Opens and making up the majority of cuts, that the developers caught the hint that the pricing on Juke and the Phantoms with talents were a problem.

In this case, the experienced player base was more knowledgeable than the developers. It wont always be the case, but it was here.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Gotcha. I was confused because you spent a lot of time on arguing for Juke in a thread on inproving A-wings.

I fell down the rabbit hole!

Juke, in of itself as a card, does do interesting things to the A-wing, but is in the scheme of the chasis not important.

Low key I think the savior of the A-wing is actually the humble Homing Missile (Which has been the only way I ever have gotten Tripple A to ever remotely work), which actually solves their offensive consistency issues quite well but... well... HanScottFirst very appropriately sniped me on its main issues.

2 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

Well, the fundamental mechanics of the A-Wing are not going to change, so that leaves cards and cost (and I agree the A-Wing needs more pilots).

Configs open up something here, but that is a big ask, as the only real config the A-wing has that is still canon AFAIK is a 'downgrade' in many respects.

3 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

In Lore, wasn't their main "punch" from missiles and not their cannons?

This brings me back to my Rogue Squadron days on the n64. Those missiles were fantastic.

4 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

The problem is, without a way to modify defense, they pop too easily, so it is hard to get a TL. I guess you could bring Dutch, but that seems like a lot of work just to get an A-Wing to fire a missile

That is the real problem. A-wings seem best as a 'spice' in a salad so it isn't terrible for them to want other ships to help, but I can speak from experience trying a similar trick with a janky K-wing setup (That worked surprisingly well, but not well enough!) in saying its fine if the IDEAL is Dutch helps fire the missile, its really bad if he NEEDS to help fire the missile.

Passive sensors would work miracles because you could choose a more defensive calculate over a TL if you were in arc, but that doesn't make any lore sense, which is a shame.

22 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Configs open up something here, but that is a big ask, as the only real config the A-wing has that is still canon AFAIK is a 'downgrade' in many respects.

Make two cards:

Dedicated Interceptor. Talent + Missile.

Requirements: 2-dice forward primary, 3 agility, boost.

While you perform a primary attack, if the defender is in your [bullseye], the defender cannot roll more than 2 defence dice.

Striker. Talent.

Requirements: 2-dice forward primary, 3 agility, boost.

Before you engage, you may spend 1 focus token to acquire a lock on a ship in your [bullseye].

bullseye mechanic is best mechanics

1 hour ago, Roller of blanks said:

Also, to get us back on topic, do think the RZ-2 would see as much play if all but two unique pilots were deleted? And if one of those pilots was zari, and the other was tallie? I highly doubt it would see much play, maybe tallie as an annoying defense helper in a few lists.

See something familiar?

Yeah, give the A-wing players more pilot and they'll figure out the rest

It'd still see a lot more than RZ-1s. RZ-2s are pretty distinct with the combination of linked boosts, Advanced Optics, and the turret. Mass A-Wings would probably be more of a niche list than it is now, but it'd certainly scratch the itch.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

I don't get why there is so much shame around just coming out and saying 'it doesn't make any logical sense because the effect is identical to my opponent getting an extra damage result, but it just doesn't feel good to lose the evade and it makes me sad.' Like, that is a valid as **** reason to get rid of a mechanic. I did try to point out I sympathize with this logic way more than a power one multiple times, and if this was always what you were trying to say I am sorry it didn't get through.

I mean, frequently I've said in other threads that, even if Juke isn't broken, it's always FeelsBadMan.

And even thoughout this thread, I've been saying "BS" and "Toxic" constantly.

23 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Striker. Talent.

Requirements: 2-dice forward primary, 3 agility, boost.

Before you engage, you may spend 1 focus token to acquire a lock on a ship in your [bullseye].

bullseye mechanic is best mechanics

I like the basic effect, but might word it differently. Something like "While you are focused, you may treat the [Attack:Lock] requirement as [Attack:] for targets in your bullseye arc." That way, there's no shuffling around of tokens, but the practical effect is the same.

That'd be a really fun premise, however. I like that Proton Rockets are an action-easy, position-hard missile, to contrast with position-easy, action-hard missiles like Concussion. I wish that's what Barrage Rockets was--a bullseye only weapon that's a lot cheaper, kind of like a missiles version of Autoblasters, roughly.

A talent like this gets at the ease of old Deadeye, but wisely restricts it to bullseye, a very 2e way of doing things.

Awings need something to punch harder. Could be bullseye talents, or missiles, or (more in rebel theme) some Howlrunner-esque synergy, or numbers, or time on target - or a combination.

Here's a hypothetical: would they be good enough with passive sensors or Jendon?

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Here's a hypothetical: would they be good enough with passive sensors or Jendon?

You can do Jendon and 4 Barons with concussion and FCS.

But nobody does, because force.

You can't squeeze a fifth a-wing in there even at i1, and you lose FCS. So my guess would be that, no, Jendon and the As wouldn't gut the muster.

As for passive...I'm still worried about low-initiative, 4 hp ships with no defensive mods carrying around 9 points of upgrades they won't ever use because they're dead. In the same way I don't see Jendon and barons, I also don't see passive barons or passive N1s (except the one with purple).

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Awings need something to punch harder. Could be bullseye talents, or missiles, or (more in rebel theme) some Howlrunner-esque synergy, or numbers, or time on target - or a combination.

Here's a hypothetical: would they be good enough with passive sensors or Jendon?

Maybe no, because of cost.

So right now, an Init 3 Green A-Wing with Predator, Crack Shot, and Concussion Missiles is 41 points. Even without other tricks, maybe it'd be good enough at... 38?

Sure, I'd love a Bullseye-Deadeye or whatever. New capabilities can be cool. Mostly I think they're just too expensive. If it's a choice between better prices with the same tools, and the same prices with better tools, I lean towards better prices.

I agree with both of you. That's imo why missiles are not the answer.

25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree with both of you. That's imo why missiles are not the answer.

At least, not at current prices. I'm mostly against spreadsheet prices, but what if A-Wings got missiles for 2 points cheaper per missile, but still had to get their locks the hard way? Add in the generics being a point cheaper as well. It's certainly less bad, and it'll have an interesting block-and-lock, zoom-now-boom-tomorrow vibe.

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

At least, not at current prices. I'm mostly against spreadsheet prices, but what if A-Wings got missiles for 2 points cheaper per missile, but still had to get their locks the hard way? Add in the generics being a point cheaper as well. It's certainly less bad, and it'll have an interesting block-and-lock, zoom-now-boom-tomorrow vibe.

Maybe interesting, but not good.

If it was then you could already build a similar list with eg 1 fewer missile. Or go above 200 and test that way.

No, I don't believe it.

Interestingly a crack Tala fits alongside 5x marks/pred or crack/pred Greens now.

31 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Interestingly a crack Tala fits alongside 5x marks/pred or crack/pred Greens now.

Not in Hyperspace. And there is no way that massed A-wings will do well in extended - unless we see massive changes in a week.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe interesting, but not good.

If it was then you could already build a similar list with eg 1 fewer missile. Or go above 200 and test that way.

No, I don't believe it.

Not great in absolute terms, but maybe good enough to be less chump-like.

43 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Not in Hyperspace. And there is no way that massed A-wings will do well in extended - unless we see massive changes in a week.

A million times give me all the bullseye.. crack, predator, Prockets, and hlc. All of it!

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Also, to get us back on topic, do think the RZ-2 would see as much play if all but two unique pilots were deleted?

Heroic and Advanced Optics both do a lot to increase the consistency of the RZ-2, combined with the ability to fire out the rear arc.

5 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

Dedicated Interceptor

With that combination of requirements, combined with a requirement for a missile and boost, the effect is way too small. It either does nothing in many matchups that the A-wing still is inconsistent in (Droids, for example, just do not care unless your firing at range 3) and even when it works, regardless of the combination of if your focused or your target is focused or at range 2 vs range 3, it only is a .2 average damage increase, and around a 10% decrease in 0 hit attacks while still almost always being 0 hit 50% of the time, meaning it compares extremely poorly to crack shot as this needs to land 5 times unless your consistently shooting in range 3 at bullseye with.

The A-wing's problem is generally more 'blanking out' or getting only 1 hit vs a 2 defense ship with defensive mods far too often, rather than 3 or 4 defense ships, which is part of why they like advanced optics and heroic so much: The combination puts your 'miss rate' vs 2 dice focused ships at range 2 by 20% and, more importantly, makes an attack that does at least 1 damage generally more likely than one that doesn't. Vs 3 dice focused defenders you kinda just need the focus range-1 either way to get that 50% hit rate.

5 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

Striker. Talent.

Requirements: 2-dice forward primary, 3 agility, boost.

Before you engage, you may spend 1 focus token to acquire a lock on a ship in your [bullseye].

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

While you are focused, you may treat the [Attack:Lock] requirement as [Attack:] for targets in your bullseye arc

The first talent is better. Swapping your targeting requirements isn't very powerful as we see from Target Sync and Instinctive Aim mostly not being used, and those two are more powerful due to not having an action requirement. This means that the effect of just swapping isn't really enough: Why are you paying extra when you could just run a proton rocket and get an extra 2.5 damage? If it was 0 points, maybe with ions or clusters, and with the requirements that strict it COULD be 0 though, which would make it a non-taxing option on missile A's.

The second is more interesting because it creates an incidental long term reward, as gaining the target lock 'for real' allows you to set up future turns if your defense doesn't need a focus and you happen to roll well on your initial attack. With homing missiles specifically you almost always get to keep the lock, meaning its a decent combo with them as you can from then on just use focus defensively or for regular attacks and get a double mod bonus down the line if you run out. Might be worth 1 point (it compares poorly with crack shot unless paired with a missile, as even if you assume you roll all hits on the first attack and 'get to' save it for a future attack, your only gaining around .3 damage double modded range 1 and need to thus get a bullseye where you didn't need to mod 3 times over the game to even get parity to crack shot. If you just bite the bullet and make it A-exclusive it could be 0, as even without access to missiles at 0 points it gives 'naked' A-wings a realistic ship chasis ability to help them while still modding defensively over the course of a game. It buffs Jake, but Jake while good isn't so good as to really be pushing the rebel faction in any way.

4 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

As for passive...I'm still worried about low-initiative, 4 hp ships with no defensive mods carrying around 9 points of upgrades they won't ever use because they're dead.

Yeah this is a real issue with A-wings: Anything for them either has to be dirt cheap, or has to be useful often enough when they are forced to spend their mods defensively. 3 dice unmodded with 4 health is a no-go for defense, but 2 dice attacking unmodded is a no-go for attack, so your kinda stuck as a ship that can't arc dodge. Even a minor increase in consistency for an unmodded attack or defense is 'worth it' at 1 point.

It's not good enough to have a nice perk to open up a new playstyle that might make missiles more fun on A-Wings, no, it has to be the kind of thing that can be abused for some other purposes. Gotcha.

Also, the context for why TSync and Instinctive Aim haven't been widely taken is important.

There are very few pilots who can even use Instinctive Aim, and they'll break down into two clean categories. Luke/Kylo/Vader/Y-Anakin all have high enough initiative that they don't need it. The other group of pilots are TIE/v1, who don't need it because they've usually had Jendon or Passive Sensors, both of which allow actual double-mods.

Targeting Synchronizer isn't used because it's dastardly expensive. 6 points, plus the cost of a ship to get the locks. It'll just never work out. Plus, Resistance and FO, for most of their time in this game, haven't had access to cheap missile ships to take advantage. Scum never had a carrier until recently, since the Quadjumper never had the lock action they'd need. So it's really expensive, and there's historically been no one who could come close to being able to use it.

But like, pretend it's the effect of changing requirements that's bad, rather than understanding why an upgrade can be bad, even if the effect it produces is useful.

8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Here's a hypothetical: would they be good enough with passive sensors or Jendon?

Bodhi lets them do some interesting things.