See Poll: https://strawpoll.com/yg7efar6

If you had to change the activation and attack order flow, which would you want?

• move low to high initiative, shoot low to high initiative
• move high to low initiative, shoot low to high initiative
• move high to low initiative, shoot high to low initiative

This is just a thought experiment. I am not sure which option I would choose.

Good luck have fun.

I've thought for a long time that shooting should also be low to high. Insert one of my multi-page rants about initiative killing here.

But also it just makes so much more sense from like, a new player perspective (which implies it makes more sense from a game design perspective, something about both types of ships having agency). The last three times I taught someone this game, they all said that shooting order seems backwards

10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

move low to high initiative, shoot low to high initiative

If we had to change, I'd do this and remove initiative killing. Lore wise, we could say that rookie would be taking the first shot they could while veterans would be more calculating picking their best shot.

15 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

remove initiative killing

I'm not sure it would without also having a hefty readjustment in list size. Massed fire, even against a target that can react to your maneuvers and actions can still remove the target from the board before it can fire ("Moar Dakka" can be quite effective from what I've seen). Not my area of specialty so I'm out on the math end, despite dabbling previously, but there should be someone who can run the numbers on the survivability of the "average" arc dodger or high init brawler vs 6 to 8 ships (I think 2-4 arcs on target could be a good baseline for that. 2 red, 3 red and a 50-50 mix of the 2 attack die values should provide a nice starting point).

17 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

remove initiative killing

I don't hate it. I still think there should be a penalty on attacks for getting popped, but it should be less that a full disarm.

I'd previously had the thought that a defender against a "dead" ship being able to turn one of the attacker's red dice from hit to eye, or eye to blank. However, why needlessly multiply entities? I'd just say that when you destroy an enemy ship, you can assign them a Jam or Deplete token.

I like there being a real benefit to shooting first, but just think it should be smaller. This also benefits shooting first with simultaneous fire. If my Fenn Rau can Jam the Lock off a Vader, that might be incentive enough for me to move first shoot first.

17 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

• move high to low initiative, shoot low to high initiative

Boom Owl accidentally proposes Soontir Fel should cost 31 points and be non-unique. 😄

17 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

• move low to high initiative, shoot low to high initiative

This one. With current initiative values, I think it'd be bad to make the cheapest generics the best arc dodgers. In addition, I think it's just cleaner. All the 1s go first.

//

• More broadly, there's a lot of potential here for how Initiative perhaps should have worked. Suppose we really broke through the 1-is-worst, 6-is-best?
• Suppose every phase starts with Low initiative, and goes to High Initiative.
  • So if the three things a ship can do are Arc Dodge, Block, and Initiative Kill, the pairings got shuffled up. now you no longer have Dodger/Killers, but Blocker/Killers. Arc Dodgers only dodge, instead of blockers only blocking.
• I'd pair this with a complete rethink on what each pilot's initiative is.
• I'd also maybe make it a 1-7 standard scale, so there can be a 4 in the middle, rather than having 3/4 be just off the middle. Anyhow, the point is that 4 ought to be the average.
  • Soontir Fel becomes a 7. Anyhow, dude is is a cautious ace, he moves last. He's still the arc-dodger-of-arc-dodgers. However, this also gives his opponents a chance to shoot him first, this puts him at risk of being shot down before attacking.
  • Fenn Rau would also be a 7. He gets to park himself in front of someone, and take the gamble that his green dice will hold out for a major payoff. I think that'd be a lot of fun.
    • *Edit* All the Fangs!
      • Zealous Recruit: Init 1. They're wicked eager.
      • Kad Solus: Init 2. Early enough that he's probably able to fully execute his red moves reliably.
      • Old Teroch: Init 3. Old men are always up wicked early. He moves late enough that he can token-strip any of the quick-shooting pilots, but he's still on the early side.
      • Skull Squadron Pilot: Init 4. Middle ground. Dodge some, outshoot others.
      • Joy Reckoff: Init 6. Higher Init means she'll have an easier time getting Locks, if she wants them, to allow her to use her Torpedoes in different ways (for Outmaneuver or their normal effect). She's also significantly different from a Skull or Kad Solus.
        • Fang aces now has two really different flavors. Fenn/OldT/Joy to lean into arc dodging, and Fenn/OldT/Kad to lean into blocking and Init-killing.
  • Han Solo becomes a 1, because Han Shoots First. It also means he moves that big old Falcon first, so your opponent has a chance to react.
  • A few generics:
    • Academy Pilots and Blue Escort X-Wings become would both become Basic 4s (dang it... now I'm hungry). Moves in the middle, shoots in the middle.
      • I might leave someone like Luke Skywalker or Wedge Antilles at a 4. There ought to be a few aces who are in the middle.
    • Obsidian/Partisan become a 5s. They lag behind, which is probably worse, but it'd be a choice.
    • Black Squadron TIEs or Red Squadron Veterans become 3s. They're quicker on the draw, more likely to be able to pop an enemy first.
  • TIE Silencer becomes pretty interesting.
    • Impulsive Kylo is an Init 2.
    • Cautious Blackout is a 6, and so is clean-up man Avenger.
    • Basic Engineers are 4s.
    • First Order Test Pilots are 5s, Recoil is a 3.
    • Rush... Rush would need a redesign... they start at 4, but when they lose their shields, they get to pick 1 or 7, and are that for the rest of the game.
• I go back and forth whether I'd pair it with the lower penalties for getting Initiative killed, with only a Jam or Deplete instead of a Disarm.
• Overall, each step you move towards shooting first gives one more level of opponent the advantage on you in terms of arc dodging. Each step you take towards arc dodging better means someone else gets to shoot you first. Anyhow, I think such a scheme would represent a serious choice between whether you want to go first or last.
• Maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow, but tonight I love it.

I went for "move high to low, shoot high to low", with the caveat that this would require a complete restructuring of ship initiative values (and a whole barrel of ship abilities would need reworks).

Rather than low initiative generic = unskilled & cheap, you could get some flavour in how they vary. For instance, you could have a generic First Order TIE pilot having a high initiative value, representing their fanaticism and rigourous training. That pilot will charge headlong into the fray, poised to engage at the earliest opportunity. A generic T-70 pilot may have a lower initiative, representing a more reactive combat style which allows him to take advantage of any gaps which might open up in the First Order lines. It also opens up an interesting door when it comes to mods (but that would require even more changes).

Or, what happens if you use Armada-style activations?

I don't know if it would be better, but it would be different!

Each ship would shoot, and then move, in turn. No Initiative values at all. Swarms would be their own force multiplier by moving later, vs being weaker overall. Most x-wing players will probably hate this idea!

More seriously, I like Bitterfig's idea.

Toilet Bowl Format:

Activation and Systems order is reversed, Engagement order is unchanged. i6 moves first, shoots first. i1 moves last, shoots last.

Why not try it? What've you got to lose?

3 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Or, what happens if you use Armada-style activations?

I don't know if it would be better, but it would be different!

Each ship would shoot, and then move, in turn. No Initiative values at all. Swarms would be their own force multiplier by moving later, vs being weaker overall. Most x-wing players will probably hate this idea!

When do you set dials? Depending on when that happens, or whether it happens, I could see this being particularly strong for arc dodgers. If we're following Armada directly, there might be no more dial. You just pick your maneuver and go.

If we're sitting here casually redesigning a fundamental mechanic of the game how about this: no initiative. First player is chosen through some mechanic. That player activates all of their ships in whatever order they want, the other player activates in whatever order they want. Then they both shoot in whatever order they want with first player going first. Then it all starts over again.

move low to high. Everyone shoots "simultaneously" low to high, and then all dead ships are removed.

Firing order kinda only matters for crits there, but it also lets the aces take the kill shots on the most-damaged enemy more often.

7 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Or, what happens if you use Armada-style activations?

I don't know if it would be better, but it would be different!

Each ship would shoot, and then move, in turn. No Initiative values at all. Swarms would be their own force multiplier by moving later, vs being weaker overall. Most x-wing players will probably hate this idea!

More seriously, I like Bitterfig's idea.

The issue with this is I don't think it works with setting all dials at once. In Armada a ship doesn't have to decide its move before it knows when it will have to.

21 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

See Poll: https://strawpoll.com/yg7efar6

If you had to change the activation and attack order flow, which would you want?

• move low to high initiative, shoot low to high initiative
• move high to low initiative, shoot low to high initiative
• move high to low initiative, shoot high to low initiative

This is just a thought experiment. I am not sure which option I would choose.

Good luck have fun.

I don't really have a selection for this poll. As noted this sort of change requires a re-thinking of initiative and pilot abilities and probably the way the re-position actions are timed. I think this also would need some re-consideration of overlapping rules.

I don't think any of these ideas work with initiative as we understand it. I think that understanding still has tendrils attached to 1st Ed. "Pilot Skill." Bitterfig I think has the best suggestion based on the poll selections. His post gets at the idea of needing to assign Initiative (which under what he outlines needs a different name) based on when you want something to shoot and when you want something to move. I think then there is a thematic issue that gets even uglier than the one that exists now regarding a pilot's initiative value.

On 5/20/2020 at 10:17 PM, Kyle Ren said:

I've thought for a long time that shooting should also be low to high. Insert one of my multi-page rants about initiative killing here.

You won't get rid of initiative killing unless you get rid of initiative.

And then you'll just rename it activation order killing.

This be an inherent issue with turn-based games, up to and including chess.

How does chess avoid the issue? It doesn't. It's deliberately lethal by allowing anything to be one-shotted off the board if a mistake was made.

It makes the players learn to avoid the issue, by understanding how movement in the game works and how to protect their most important pieces.

On 5/21/2020 at 1:09 PM, Gilarius said:

Or, what happens if you use Armada-style activations?

I don't know if it would be better, but it would be different!

Each ship would shoot, and then move, in turn. No Initiative values at all. Swarms would be their own force multiplier by moving later, vs being weaker overall. Most x-wing players will probably hate this idea!

More seriously, I like Bitterfig's idea.

GW's Man o War has a similar system: player alternate activation of units (either 1 big Man o War , or 1 sqad containing 3 Ships of the Line or 1 single Independent (special ships, submarines)), move and potentially board, then directly shoot. Other player activates 1 unit. And so forth.

Problem is, it is quite exploitable. A player with a lot of units versus a player with few units (either because player fields few expensive units, or already has lost ships) can force the few-unit-player to move the most valuable unit into an infavourable position, where it then gets pounded to death, by just moving many inconsequential units first, while the few unit player must move the unit as (s)he has no other units to activate left.

On 5/20/2020 at 11:14 PM, Boom Owl said:

See Poll: https://strawpoll.com/yg7efar6

If you had to change the activation and attack order flow, which would you want?

• move low to high initiative, shoot low to high initiative
• move high to low initiative, shoot low to high initiative
• move high to low initiative, shoot high to low initiative

This is just a thought experiment. I am not sure which option I would choose.

Good luck have fun.

Purely as thought experiment: As the others said, low to high both move and shoot.

You know what is funny with your post? What you used is exactly the scene where you see the other (scenewise first) Quadjumper in TFA. That is not the second(!) one which gets blown up later. Most people, especially the ones complaining about "a ship with short movie appearance gets a model", do not realise that there are 2 Quadjumpers in 2 different scenes

8 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

You won't get rid of initiative killing unless you get rid of initiative.

And then you'll just rename it activation order killing.

This be an inherent issue with turn-based games, up to and including chess.

How does chess avoid the issue? It doesn't. It's deliberately lethal by allowing anything to be one-shotted off the board if a mistake was made.

It makes the players learn to avoid the issue, by understanding how movement in the game works and how to protect their most important pieces.

theoretically you could just make everyone Fel's Wrath... I mean we already have simultaneous fire for things of the same initiative, it wouldn't be that hard to just change the game to say everyone gets to shoot and then destroyed ships are removed at the end of the round.

On 5/21/2020 at 7:09 AM, Gilarius said:

Or, what happens if you use Armada-style activations?

I don't know if it would be better, but it would be different!

Each ship would shoot, and then move, in turn. No Initiative values at all. Swarms would be their own force multiplier by moving later, vs being weaker overall. Most x-wing players will probably hate this idea!

More seriously, I like Bitterfig's idea.

OR do like Battle tech does. Both players roll 2d6, highest wins. Loser moves one ship, in order till the last one moving is the one who won the roll. Then he fires one ship, and so on back down to the one who moved first. This way the dice have more of a function.

7 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Problem is, it is quite exploitable. A player with a lot of units versus a player with few units (either because player fields few expensive units, or already has lost ships) can force the few-unit-player to move the most valuable unit into an infavourable position, where it then gets pounded to death, by just moving many inconsequential units first, while the few unit player must move the unit as (s)he has no other units to activate left.

See above.

9 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

You won't get rid of initiative killing unless you get rid of initiative.

I can't believe it took 12 posts before someone dropped this little factoid.