On 5/19/2020 at 11:13 PM, Reavern said:

Pay attention, because this might be very difficult for you to follow:

.

1. In Q4, FFG releases Clone Wars Armada, as scheduled.

This is funny. Obviously it is Q2 2021!

I'd like to take this opportunity to say how much I respect this community's ability to, well, self-police. Whenever someone (Nelson, Kaine, etc.) turns out to be a piece of work, they ultimately get shut down.

And everyone is welcomed and respected unless they prove to be a PITA.

Both practices are pretty rare for the internet.

9 hours ago, Jansen007 said:

Dude...this is embarrassing to read.

I think that all that's happened is that the forum AI has become sentient, but not self-aware. Can't think of any other explanation for the behaviour displayed.

Reavern has made some good points, in this thread and others.

Shame he then spoils those points with personal attacks and vitriol directed at random bystanders and many others who also make good points. Attacking respected members of the community is a very poor method of getting people to agree with you!

In my opinion, for what it's worth (not much), Asmodee do seem to have a very negative influence - there have been some in-depth discussions about how and why this is on the x-wing forum (mostly due to them buying FFG when their balance sheet looked very profitable, then being horrified when they found out that the next few years had far less money coming in); and FFG seem unable to capitalise (both meanings) on the good games they make by actually producing what their customers are crying out for. Neither appear to be able to produce the right stock in the right places.

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I'd like to take this opportunity to say how much I respect this community's ability to, well, self-police. Whenever someone (Nelson, Kaine, etc.) turns out to be a piece of work, they ultimately get shut down.

And everyone is welcomed and respected unless they prove to be a PITA.

Both practices are pretty rare for the internet.

I think everyone starts off a little more opinionated than normal when they get started on a forum (I certainly was), whether it is to get your name/opinions out there or just to actively participate from outset. Being overly combative (name-calling and outright disrespect, basically pulling a pre-nerf IG-88B) is a different story, but I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

9 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Reavern, FFG has shareholders, their focus is profit.

Completely unreasonable I know

Rest assured that I'm as concerned about the plight of the humble shareholders as much as the rest of you are.

🙄

It is ludicrously unreasonable to expect customers to care about a big evil corporation's profitability.

Do any of you truly care about Apple, or Microsoft, or Sony, or Disney, or AMC, or American Airlines, or Exxon-Mobil, or Monsanto, or EA?

I don't think so.

Ever heard of the motto "The customer is always right." ?

When exactly did that consumer-friendly ethos change to the anti-consumer "Screw the customers. Pay the stockholders!" ?

Worst of all, spineless sycophants like you condone and defend those greedy business practices, which is precisely why companies take their customers for granted and offer customers less and less while shamelessly squeezing us for more and more money.

Back in the '80s, when New Coke became a total debacle, did millions of people shrug it off by saying "Well, I hate New Coke, but I have to support Coca-Cola..." NO! Millions of loyal Coca-Cola drinkers expressed their dissatisfaction about New Coke, raised ****, and compelled Coca-Cola to return to Coca-Cola Classic. They actually accomplished something, which benefited everyone, including the Coca-Cola corporation.

Big evil corporations have always schemed to maximize profits, and will continue to do so. The key difference between now and then is that back in the Decade of Greed, people were not submissive sheep. They had spines. And balls.

What do you have? 🤨

Apparently nothing but a mouth to suck up to FFG and Asmodee.

9 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Back in the '80s, when New Coke became a total debacle, did millions of people shrug it off by saying "Well, I hate New Coke, but I have to support Coca-Cola..." NO! Millions of loyal Coca-Cola drinkers expressed their dissatisfaction about New Coke, raised ****, and compelled Coca-Cola to return to Coca-Cola Classic. They actually accomplished something, which benefited everyone, including the Coca-Cola corporation.

So, what's Armada's "New Coke"?

5 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

So, what's Armada's "New Coke"?

Simple: Asmodee buying FFG and imposing their "vision":

Quote

The vision is to do less, make it count for more, and to really be focused and specialized.

Presumably that explains why Armada only gets 1 or 2 ships per year.

31 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Rest assured that I'm as concerned about the plight of the humble shareholders as much as the rest of you are.

🙄

It is ludicrously unreasonable to expect customers to care about a big evil corporation's profitability.

Do any of you truly care about Apple, or Microsoft, or Sony, or Disney, or AMC, or American Airlines, or Exxon-Mobil, or Monsanto, or EA?

I don't think so.

Ever heard of the motto "The customer is always right." ?

When exactly did that consumer-friendly ethos change to the anti-consumer "Screw the customers. Pay the stockholders!" ?

Worst of all, spineless sycophants like you condone and defend those greedy business practices, which is precisely why companies take their customers for granted and offer customers less and less while shamelessly squeezing us for more and more money.

Back in the '80s, when New Coke became a total debacle, did millions of people shrug it off by saying "Well, I hate New Coke, but I have to support Coca-Cola..." NO! Millions of loyal Coca-Cola drinkers expressed their dissatisfaction about New Coke, raised ****, and compelled Coca-Cola to return to Coca-Cola Classic. They actually accomplished something, which benefited everyone, including the Coca-Cola corporation.

Big evil corporations have always schemed to maximize profits, and will continue to do so. The key difference between now and then is that back in the Decade of Greed, people were not submissive sheep. They had spines. And balls.

What do you have? 🤨

Apparently nothing but a mouth to suck up to FFG and Asmodee.

Settle down, Karen

22 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Ever heard of the motto "The customer is always right." ?

Personally, I think this is absurd. The customer can be frequently right, maybe, but not always. Especially when it comes to things like games. Have you ever tried to design a game? It is incredibly difficult to get right. Leaving that in the customer's hands would be suicide for the game. I would be fine with just 1 release a year if it were good (which so far Armada's have been) rather than have 1 a month or even 1 a quarter and find that the quality declines.

3 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Simple: Asmodee buying FFG and imposing their "vision":

Presumably that explains why Armada only gets 1 or 2 ships per year.

I haven't watched the video, but I like the bit you quoted. Quality versus quantity is the way to go, in my opinion, as I expressed above. I agree that FFG seems to have gone into a bit of a decline since Asmodee, but that doesn't mean everything is bad.

Primarily, I am not worked up about the lack of news, because it won't change the date I can get the products, and the further away that date is the less I want to know so that I am not torn up with anticipation and impatience.

I am also not troubled by the pace of releases, because I can only justify spending my money on them at about that pace.

I've heard that it's possible to hold discussions and even differing viewpoints without being completely antagonistic. I'm pretty sure there's a proverb regarding flies, honey, and vinegar.

2 minutes ago, Formynder4 said:

I've heard that it's possible to hold discussions and even differing viewpoints without being completely antagonistic. I'm pretty sure there's a proverb regarding flies, honey, and vinegar.

A fly in the ointment is worth 3 rabbits and some honeydew and vinegar?

8 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I am also not troubled by the pace of releases, because I can only justify spending my money on them at about that pace.

Yeah, I'm right here on this. Also, the slow trickle has always allowed me to keep up, and it seems to have less chance of wrecking the game.

Also, I really liked the Team Covenant/Asmodee video. It seemed like a reasonable interview to me. I was thrilled that Armada (and IA) is still a thing.

24 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I would be fine with just 1 release a year if it were good (which so far Armada's have been) rather than have 1 a month or even 1 a quarter and find that the quality declines.

Completely agree. This release schedule has given us plenty of time to get games in with the new releases, establish a different meta, and it facilitates proper testing, leading to more balanced releases.

Edit: Partially @CaribbeanNinja ’d!

9 minutes ago, geek19 said:

A fly in the ointment is worth 3 rabbits and some honeydew and vinegar?

We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Yes, obviously the ghoulish massive corporation only wants money. They'll run the numbers on every action they take and decide what to do based on how much money that brings in. I'm not going to defend it, but that's the world we live in.

Is Armada still a fun game? Do you enjoy playing it? Are you happy with my plastic toys and dice and the games you as an adult play with them? If yes, keep buying, if no, don't.

What the heck are we even arguing over here? Are we trying to organize a boycott? Over not getting to see enough of this niche fancy toy hobby us collection of massive nerds have?

GAMERS . They targeted GAMERS .

We're all ****** adults here man - spend your money however you want.

24 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

GAMERS . They targeted GAMERS .

The most oppressed demographic.

45 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Personally, I think this is absurd. The customer can be frequently right, maybe, but not always. Especially when it comes to things like games. Have you ever tried to design a game? It is incredibly difficult to get right. Leaving that in the customer's hands would be suicide for the game. I would be fine with just 1 release a year if it were good (which so far Armada's have been) rather than have 1 a month or even 1 a quarter and find that the quality declines.

I haven't watched the video, but I like the bit you quoted. Quality versus quantity is the way to go, in my opinion, as I expressed above. I agree that FFG seems to have gone into a bit of a decline since Asmodee, but that doesn't mean everything is bad.

Primarily, I am not worked up about the lack of news, because it won't change the date I can get the products, and the further away that date is the less I want to know so that I am not torn up with anticipation and impatience.

I am also not troubled by the pace of releases, because I can only justify spending my money on them at about that pace.

There's a wide divide between "the customer is always right" mentality and all of the anti-consumer BS going on in the gaming industry today, and it's all because the Creatives have lost control of game development and the soulless corporations are firmly in charge now.

You claimed that you're fine with just 1 release a year as long as it's "good". Well let's take a trip down memory lane and examine Armada's Waves:

Wave 1:

1. Armada core set
2. Assault Frigate Mark II
3. CR90 Corellian Corvette
4. Gladiator-class Star Destroyer
5. Nebulon-B Frigate
6. Rebel Fighter Squadrons I
7. Imperial Fighter Squadrons I

Wave 2:

1. Home One
2. Imperial Star Destroyer
3. MC30 Frigate
4. Rogues & Villains
5. Imperial Raider

Wave 3:

1. Rebel Transports
2. Imperial Assault Carriers

Wave 4:

1. Interdictor
2. Liberty

Wave 5:

1. Imperial Light Cruiser
2. Rebel Fighter Squadrons II
3. Imperial Fighter Squadrons II
4. Phoenix Home

Wave 6:

1. Hammerhead Corvettes
2. Imperial Light Carrier

Wave 7:

1. Chimaera
2. Profundity

(No Wave) Super Star Destroyer

Wave 8:

1. Onager Star Destroyer
2. Starhawk

Please point out an example of an Armada Wave that wasn't "good" because of the quantity of ship expansions that were released.

I can't think of a "bad" Wave or a bad ship/squadron expansion.

So your baseless contention that Armada's quality will suffer if FFG releases more than one ship per year is a BS straw-man argument. Furthermore, neither Legion nor X-wing have suffered from the alleged Quantity vs. Quality problem. So what basis do you assume that would happen to Armada?

I don't believe that any Armada players truly prefers 1 or 2 Armada expansions per year versus more expansions every year. You all just claim that you're fine with 1 per year because that's all that FFG has given us for the last few years, and you're unwilling to criticize them in any way.

Well I'm not content with 1 or 2 Armada expansions per year and I'm not going to lie and pretend that I am.

I'm also not okay with FFG/Asmodee abysmal track record of keeping Armada products in-stock. But you all act like Armada players not being able to buy Armada expansions is fine too.

I think you are all such obedient little lapdogs that if Asmodee announced today that Clone Wars Armada was cancelled and there wouldn't be any more Armada expansions ever, you would claim you were fine with that too. 🙄

1 minute ago, Reavern said:

I think you are all such obedient little lapdogs that if Asmodee announced today that Clone Wars Armada was cancelled and there wouldn't be any more Armada expansions ever, you would claim you were fine with that too. 🙄

I agree that the Armada release schedule is slow, and that I would prefer 3-4 expansions per year, but calling people names isn't helping your points/position on the matter.

Dial it back a bit please.

8 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I can't think of a "bad" Wave or a bad ship/squadron expansion.

So your baseless contention that Armada's quality will suffer if FFG releases more than one ship per year is a BS straw-man argument.

uhhhhh, I seem to remember a significant amount of bickering about game balance between wave 3 and 7. Particularly focused on the prevalence of flotilla spam and fighter power creep.

8 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Please point out an example of an Armada Wave that wasn't "good" because of the quantity of ship expansions that were released.

I can't think of a "bad" Wave or a bad ship/squadron expansion.

So your baseless contention that Armada's quality will suffer if FFG releases more than one ship per year is a BS straw-man argument. Furthermore, neither Legion nor X-wing have suffered from the alleged Quantity vs. Quality problem. So what basis do you assume that would happen to Armada?

We haven't had a wave with more than 2 ships since Wave 2. All the waves are good. People with names in the Playtester credits are telling you that time and energy is needed to release quality products.

11 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I don't believe that any Armada players truly prefers 1 or 2 Armada expansions per year versus more expansions every year. You all just claim that you're fine with 1 per year because that's all that FFG has given us for the last few years, and you're unwilling to criticize them in any way.

Well I'm not content with 1 or 2 Armada expansions per year and I'm not going to lie and pretend that I am.

(bolding mine)

And thus we reach the crux of the issue. You're a spoiled brat that wants a Golden Goose NOW DADDY! NOW!

It takes time to develop a new ship. Decide what the ship will be, design the model, figure out what sort of archetype you want it to function as in the game, and how it fits into the existing game state. Then you have to test it to make sure it does what you want it to, test it with what already exists to make sure it doesn't break something, and then test it some more. Then maybe revise it and start the testing all over again. Then you actually have to make sure that you can produce it in sufficient quantity once the testing is finalized. Then you have to ship that production out. This takes even more time with Armada because pre-painted miniatures share a production facility with X-Wing, which is - forgive me for saying it - a much more popular game.

Would I like more expansions each year? Yes.

Am I going to be a petulant child demanding more NOW!? No. Heck, we really haven't had the time to get our Starhawks and Onagers down on physical tables enough yet to really shake out the non-online Meta.

If you're that upset, go back to X-Wing / Legion. And leave us alone.

1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:

We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

None of that please

9 minutes ago, Reavern said:

So your baseless contention that Armada's quality will suffer if FFG releases more than one ship per year is a BS straw-man argument.

https://store.privateerpress.com/games/warmachine?dir=desc&order=price

10 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Furthermore, neither Legion nor X-wing have suffered from the alleged Quantity vs. Quality problem.

The above assumes neither Legion nor X-wing had intentionally long development cycles (Legion's case at launch, X-wing during 2.0 reset) to have a backlog of product that is then released faster than it is actually created initially to help keep attention on the product. The two corroborating pieces of evidence for this tactic are Legion's slowing release rate (down from a unit a month), and that Armada Clone Wars, in the interview you dismissed, is getting two waves in two subsequent quarters, which is unprecedented speed for this game.

13 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I don't believe that any Armada players truly prefers 1 or 2 Armada expansions per year versus more expansions every year. You all just claim that you're fine with 1 per year because that's all that FFG has given us for the last few years, and you're unwilling to criticize them in any way.

If you read a **** thing, you'd know this is always put in terms of "We'll take one good versus five bad". That's the detail you're missing, or more likely intentionally excluding, because it doesn't fit your self-serving narrative of personal superiority over the general public.

15 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I'm also not okay with FFG/Asmodee abysmal track record of keeping Armada products in-stock. But you all act like Armada players not being able to buy Armada expansions is fine too.

No one else likes this either, dude. There are entire channels of communication between FFG and the Armada community specifically to help keep us informed about their attempts to fix this. They have gone quiet recently, because if you haven't noticed, FFG was gutted, followed by a global pandemic. The former of which was met with absolute outrage that was expressed constructively, which is to say not here.

20 minutes ago, Reavern said:

There's a wide divide between "the customer is always right" mentality and all of the anti-consumer BS going on in the gaming industry today, and it's all because the Creatives have lost control of game development and the soulless corporations are firmly in charge now.

This is the thing dude. Like above, you are actually in line with the sentiments of the community. However, UNLIKE EVERYONE ELSE , you feel absolutely compelled to be an unmitigated asshat. See exhibit below:

21 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I think you are all such obedient little lapdogs that if Asmodee announced today that Clone Wars Armada was cancelled and there wouldn't be any more Armada expansions ever, you would claim you were fine with that too. 🙄

Furthermore, this is, as @BiggsIRL said, absolutely petulant bull:

23 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Well I'm not content with 1 or 2 Armada expansions per year and I'm not going to lie and pretend that I am.

What's your plan? You shot down reaching out to them here:

20 hours ago, Reavern said:

Sure, because writing directly to FFG/Asmodee will accomplish anything when the rest of you so-called fans and supporters of Armada aren't willing to stand up and question or criticize FFG in any meaningful way.

Whereas if more members of the Armada community expressed their dissatisfaction with the state of Armada, that might actually accomplish appreciable, positive change .

So instead, your plan is to *****, whine, moan, insult the community around you, and generally raise all **** on a public forum owned by the company who you are trying to influence, in a completely unofficial channel that has maybe in the history of the company potentially caused change exactly once, when the feedback was positive? Are you insane? Are you on some Schedule 1 drug?

I know third graders less whiny than you.

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

uhhhhh, I seem to remember a significant amount of bickering about game balance between wave 3 and 7. Particularly focused on the prevalence of flotilla spam and fighter power creep.

How does that pertain to the point of contention that if Armada receives too many ship/squadron expansions too often, the quality of the game will suffer?

Flotillas were introduced in Wave 3. Wave 3 only had 1 expansion per faction: The flotillas.

Yes, flotillas shook up Armada's gameplay and were exploited for excessive ship activations and Commander lifeboats, but that had nothing to do with the quantity of expansions released in Wave 3. That was a matter of a new unit type with new rules and new Fleet Support abilities, which needed to be refined and balanced by FFG. That's how these types of war games evolve and improve over time.

Same thing with squadron spamming. The most powerful squadrons were from Wave 1 and 2. Squadrons II were not that significant, aside from Relay.

That had nothing to do with too many Armada expansions being released, because after Wave 2, there have never been more than 2 ship expansions per Wave. And the only year we had 3 Waves per year was back in 2016.

6 minutes ago, Reavern said:

That had nothing to do with too many Armada expansions being released, because after Wave 2, there have never been more than 2 ship expansions per Wave. And the only year we had 3 Waves per year was back in 2016.

waves 3,4,5 and CC all dropped in 2016?

It could be argued that wave 3 created the flotilla issue and in conjunction with the new aces in wave 5 and CC snowballed into what we had to deal with 'til 2018 when they finally errata'd some of the issues.

Rapid release means less time to balance. Things get crazy hectic when you fire off new stuff that fast.

Armada was really divided during that whole mess.