3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

"Take a punch" doesn't mean "ignore all damage." It means they can take some damage and still be moving and -- more importantly -- shooting afterwards. A T-70/Fang/Silencer who goes for a block, fails, and takes a bunch of damage still gets to turn around and throw a bunch of dice back. So long as the target was worth more (and sometimes that can't be measured in points), you're winning the trade.

I dunno. I’ve never seen it worthwhile.
assuming your opponent is good and has great firing solutions that turn you’re most likely in a poorer firing solution.
you pay out the neck for that mobility too.

I’ll believe it when I see it I guess. But assuming that my opponent is better than me, I’ve never ever seen them be worth it cuz they have exceptionally good time on targets. You just lose health elsewhere and then later you lose more health on the wounded silencer which tends to get PS killed.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I dunno. I’ve never seen it worthwhile.
assuming your opponent is good and has great firing solutions that turn you’re most likely in a poorer firing solution.
you pay out the neck for that mobility too.

I’ll believe it when I see it I guess. But assuming that my opponent is better than me, I’ve never ever seen them be worth it cuz they have exceptionally good time on targets. You just lose health elsewhere and then later you lose more health on the wounded silencer which tends to get PS killed.

YMMV. The game would be boring if everyone enjoyed the same ships.

I've had a bunch of fun flying multiple SJE or 4 Fangs. I like that these are ships that move well and can hit hard. "Take a punch" is mostly what @DR4CO was saying. A ship like a Striker or TIE Interceptor *cannot* take a punch. The gameplan isn't to joust with X-Wings. Being able to absorb a hit is not the goal, it's the insurance. Goal mostly is to keep my arcs wide, and converge fire on people, and I just enjoy doing that more with mobile ships which can highroll defensively than something like a B-Wing or an ARC that's not as nimble and can only soak hits.

That said, when playing and I've block someone with ship A, and ship B has a focused 4-dice Range 1 shot, and the enemy has to try to respond without tokens against my 3 greens, it's usually felt like I've come out ahead.

From my experience with four fangs and Poe + rookies, blocking is kind of essential. I’ve found i do it not just for action denial, but also for board position and firing arc control.

/shrug

8 minutes ago, gennataos said:

also for board position and firing arc control.

Worth overstating. There is so much more to blocking than simply setting up a token vs no token trade.

Difficult to provide definitive examples but I pull numerous 'no-trade' blocks with almost everything, if the situation is there. Keeping an arc on the half turn, getting a particular ship out of trouble, dictating options for next turn etc etc.

Having an actual dedicated blocker, with a plan, is really a very particular thing. Having ships that you know you can block with, and can then leverage that, is kinda different.

And it's much easier to avoid a block when you know which ship it's coming from. I really like the 42pt T-70, that thing is a bargain. The 51pt SJE not so much, because it's so easily comparable to 2x 25pt TIE/fos and I'd always take those instead.

All I can say is, when I've flown Sienar-Jaemus Engineers, I've liked them and had fun games. There's all sorts of bad ships that someone out there enjoys. Maybe this is just one of those for me.

I know winning is fun. But having fun is also fun.

Neat to see an actual dialogue about Blocking tactics. This is a big part of why i think the Poe Principle matters, and why I made this post in the first place.

When blocking truly matters against an ace the game benefits tremendously. That tension of basically having to decide against even attempting a block and rather blocking repositions or corraling for arc coverage is at its worst vs Pre-movement ships and Passive Mod stacked ships. Poe in most situations, and Soontir/Fenn/Vonreg/Holo in many but not all situations are highly susceptible to it. Especially with 3 guns threatening them, much less so with 2 again depending alot on range and board state. Its ok that some Aces have built in options to mitigate the impact of a block or a stress token, I believe though that its not ok at their current costs which are still for the ones I identified to low. Those costs allow for upgrades to be added that further mitigate blocking risk and block consequences. Thats not a good thing for the game. Its also not necessary for Aces to be able to do this to compete with Swarms. Good positioning and planning is all you need especially given general access to repositioning abilities and init kill stacks.

Point is that Poe when blocked or stressed or rocked loses all access to Offensive and Defensive modification. Starting at a price of 68 and only really being able to lean into HP or Invested Support Pts in other ships to nope out of situations he should fail. Having that as a built in constraint calls into question all the Ace costs around him. I still firmly believe this. Soontir's cost at 53 seems way off given how similar he is to Poe in power level, even if Poe sees a reduction to low 60s which I would be firmly against you would expect Soontir to be near equal in cost and start with a 6*. But Soontir genuinely is only one example and at least mechanically is in the close to the right place, he is afraid of blocks, counter play matters against him...its just his costs thats concerning to me. Vader starts at 67 and is 1 pt cheaper than Poe....again my opinion is that Poe for his platform like Fenn is priced very close to correct Fenn perhaps being 2 pts cheap. Vader certainly at 67 should see an increase into the 70s. Whisper rolling with Fifth Bro and Passive Sensors is another example of a ship that doesnt really make sense at current cost compared to Poe, could be primarily a upgrade access problem but I think that lateral movement is still probably undercosted given the dramatic change it allows in terms of angles of approach and disengagement.

General increases to the "problem" aces that still own this game will make those tactics more relevant without in any way killing off the Aces competitively. They are simply to flexible for that to happen even with broad 5-15 pt increases. Im glad to see folks discussing one of the core reasons I made this post.

Poe (and Soontir/Fenn etc.) are vulnerable to in game decision making by an opponent that other aces whether Blocked or in multiple Arcs mitigate at similar or cheaper costs. The differences to fully kitted Poe are often not that great were talking 5-8 pts in general. Team decrease Poe's cost is interested in the status quo of X-Wing Gameplay. I am not.

Increase the outliers a bit further and deny them a few of their precious jousting/block mitigation upgrades.

Part of the fun of running Poe, Fenn, and to a certain extent Soontir is knowing there is a lower limit to how badly you can mess up.

Prices of the aces that fail less dramatically should reflect that more than they currently do. And Soontir, yes even Soontir Ace of Legend should be priced in line with Fenn and Poe.

12 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Team decrease Poe's cost is interested in the status quo of X-Wing Gameplay. I am not.

I keep having the recurring thought that this all reduces down to Poe being under-powered compared to the Status Quo.

1. If you like the Status Quo, buff Poe.
2. If you don't like the Status Quo, Poe is the archetype for what an Ace should be, and nerf everyone else.

Just now, theBitterFig said:

I keep having the recurring thought that this all reduces down to Poe being under-powered compared to the Status Quo.

1. If you like the Status Quo, buff Poe.
2. If you don't like the Status Quo, Poe is the archetype for what an Ace should be, and nerf everyone else.

I'll have the #2 please...

23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I keep having the recurring thought that this all reduces down to Poe being under-powered compared to the Status Quo.

1. If you like the Status Quo, buff Poe.
2. If you don't like the Status Quo, Poe is the archetype for what an Ace should be.

Aka even if he was cheaper Poe remains genuinely bad and a pointless competitive choice until Resistance gets its equivalent to Soontir/GI/Whisper/Vader/Obi/Plo/Ric/Duchess/etc.....basically more and better Lulos.

Or I guess a easy double mod missile for those cheap RZ2A i5s to throw around.

Or Poe gets so cheap he gets BB8 or Torps almost for "Free" and gets lumped in with the rest of the "block me bro joust me bro" aces.

18 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Certainly 1. In a 2 vs 1 situation, X-Wings probably win. I guess that's 1.5. But there's two things:

• First is format. "N Ships vs 1" is a pretty odd format, and one which doesn't really resemble standard X-Wing. Facing multiple ships, without the threat from listmates coming in unchallenged, just gives a large advantage to the X-Wings.
  • That probably means my "Soontir Trades Up" is perhaps skewed, since there's probably someone else in the list trading-down. However, I still think it's relevant, since if you can manage to break even with the rest of the squad, that puts things into an awkward position.
  • Side-note: if it's sequentially rather than simultaneously, a new X-Wing on the other corner of the map after one is killed, I think Soontir can probably take 2 or 3 without too much trouble.
• Second is equal skill. At equal skill levels, Soontir is overall pretty fair. Once there's a bit more of a skill differential, then stuff gets kinda awkward. Soontir is more prone to die in a ball of fire and feel useless, or feel unbeatable.
  • There are other ships like this, who can bring that "Why am I even playing this game, I can't do anything about this" feeling, but most of those cost more than 53 points. Like, an invincible Kylo or Anakin or Guri costs somewhere around twice as much. There's no one this cheap with this much potential to just go off. I think that leads to a lot of bad feelings.
  • I think it's possible that Soontir's entire schtick--fragile glass cannon who can do incredible things--might simply be kinda bad game design.

Interesting thoughts here.

I think if people tend to feel like Soontir could take out 1.5 generic 40-point-ish T-65’s, then his cost is probably about right; if he does his job in that scenario, his 53 points was good for 60 points of enemy material, and the 7 point bonus you get is your reward for flying a glass cannon and not making any fatal mistakes until he’s earned his keep.

As to the final point here, about whether a ship like Fel is “bad game design,” I have to disagree, while fully acknowledging that this is a highly subjective question. Like any fragile-but-punchy piece, it seems like Soontir is subject to a high degree of variance; that is, the dice matter a lot more for a guy with 3 hull and 0 shields than they do for a 4 hull, 2 shield Kylo Ren, for example.

Some people don’t like chance; they feel like it robs a game of skill, and allows unskilled players to luck-sack into wins they don’t “deserve.” They find it frustrating, more than exciting.

Soontir, I think, is meant to appeal to players who find the “luck” aspect of the game exciting more than they find it frustrating... which seems a bit paradoxical, given that skill is such an important aspect of flying him well. I suppose it’s just that, even IF you fly skillfully with Fel, if you have an opponent who’s roughly as skilled as you are, there’s still times when you just need to grit your teeth, cross your fingers, and roll the dice. I guess it’s that intersectionality of luck and skill that I find interesting in him.

I’m sure people have said things like this before, so I won’t belabor the point, but on the skill/luck axis, any game basically hovers between something like chess (all skill, no luck), and Chutes & Ladders (all luck, no skill). A game like X-Wing tries to appeal to players who fall in a pretty wide range on this spectrum, with a definite bent toward the “skill over luck” end. But the occasional swingy, risky game piece like Fel is necessary to maintain the equilibrium. In that respect, I think he’s very well designed.

But that doesn’t mean you have to like playing that kind of ship. I personally do, sometimes.

In regards to blocking, I recently faced off against an A-Wing swarm and figured I had this game in the bag. No I did not. He did a fantastic job of blocking my pieces and keeping arcs on me at all times, and my ships just started to melt while his cheap blockers each took an inordinate amount of work to kill. There was certainly some dice variance that harmed me in critical rounds that would have swung the match more in my favor, but even so, it was surprisingly effective. Swarms do a great job of coverage, making it extremely hazardous to try to 3-bank or k-turn out of there, but also dangerous to slow roll... they'll be fully tokened up, but your ships are really going to have to struggle simply to not bump or leave themselves exposed in the effort to avoid it. If a loosely packed swarm can surround you, or corner you with obstacles, etc, you're in a terrible spot and a lot of the approach game is avoiding that whenever possible.

IMO U-Wings make fun sassy blockers too, by virtue of having low init, a fat base, the ability to rotate in place when needed to keep more arcs on more targets. It helps that they're typically serving a cheap support role so they can afford to be in the way even at occasional expense to their firepower (if it serves the greater team), but they're also great at lending their firepower even in blocking position. Nom Lumb is a great bloaty-blocky piece for this same reason.

Another reason why both players should take obstacle placement very seriously. Games can be secretly lost this way without the opponent realizing it until the trap is sprung 3+ turns in.

15 minutes ago, Wazat said:

In regards to blocking, I recently faced off against an A-Wing swarm and figured I had this game in the bag. No I did not. He did a fantastic job of blocking my pieces and keeping arcs on me at all times, and my ships just started to melt while his cheap blockers each took an inordinate amount of work to kill.

This means he out played you. This is why I want Aces to be more expensive. So this type of stuff matters as much as possible at all times.

Obstacle placement as you noted is another good example of something that matters alot less for cheap aces who in many cases can simply fly over them than it does for the properly priced ones like Poe/Fenn.

The neat thing is that blocking isnt just a strategy for fighting aces, it works against most of the peasant i1-i4 stuff to.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

This means he out played you. This is why I want Aces to be more expensive. So this type of stuff matters as much as possible at all times.

Uhh yea, that was my point, he outplayed me. It was a fun experience because I completely underestimated his team, and that delights me.

Whether or not more expensive aces improves things is an open topic I don't want to rehash yet again though, at least not without new and more precise talking points. I'm... tired of being browbeaten with heavily-covered ground. If we want to discuss further, then I'd like my questions from before answered by you ( @Boom Owl ):

1. What should some of the major aces cost in this new system?
   1. Be specific, no hand-waving.
   2. Treating current-cost Poe and a 70-point Soontir as our baselines, price major aces like Vader, Kylo, Grand Inquisitor, Anakin, Obi Wan, and friends appropriately.
2. Post some serious lists with the new points.
   1. Actually specify the details and use the new points from step 1, instead of pointing to existing lists and hand-waving.
   2. What do those lists actually look like? Seeing aces in their natural habitat in the new ecosystem, and having common, concrete points of discussion, is more valuable than each reader having to just guess (leading everyone to argue over points that aren't even the same because everyone guesses slightly differently)

With example lists we can discuss the resulting meta soberly and in meaningful detail. Let's do this.

5 minutes ago, Wazat said:

. If we want to discuss further, then I'd like my questions from before answered by you ( @Boom Owl 😞

I replied to your question on example lists you ignored it.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I replied to your question on example lists you ignored it.

Someone help me out here, what was that post where he directly answered my question? This is what I found:

Boom replied with one example list (singular), but not with a 70-point soontir etc. He posted an existing list and hand-waved that the increased points (unspecified as he still hasn't established Vader's cost) would be absorbed by the bid and fewer upgrades. He did not actually post a list with his new points.

On 5/11/2020 at 4:34 PM, Boom Owl said:

Picking on a semi random recent one...Vader Soontir Fifth Bro has way more than 31 pts of room. Soontir + 16 and Vader + 7 between a 3 pt burners nerf and 4 pt base cost increase would land at 200.

Still has two i6s for every ace matchup and still could deal with any beef or swarm list. Remove Upgrades from Fifth Bro and Soontir gets some quality of life upgrades like Lone Wolf or Crack TC.

Huge number of options could even still bring GI which has 28 pts of room. Would be a legit choice as well but should probably require Vader to lose burners out right and leave only 5 pts of room if its even allowed to fit within 200 with no upgrades.

Could also go with Soontir + 3 Imdaars which has 18 pts of room and could fit crackshot and work wonders against any swarm or beef. Lots of options from my perspective, and huge amounts of point space.

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor	53
Ship Total: 53
Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1	67
Afterburners	6
Ship Total: 73
Half Points: 37 Threshold: 3
Seventh Sister — TIE Advanced v1	43
Passive Sensors	3
Homing Missiles	5
Ship Total: 51
Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

@Boom Owl Please stop BSing me and just... answer the question fully and directly. I am genuinely trying to take you seriously because this topic interest me and I want to treat you with respect, and you keep treating me like crap in return.

13 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Picking on a semi random recent one...Vader Soontir Fifth Bro has way more than 31 pts of room. Soontir + 16 and Vader + 7 between a 3 pt burners nerf and 4 pt base cost increase would land at 200.

I thought +16 was enough to identify it as 69 pt Soontir and just assumed that was the beginning of a conversation about some of the details. Lead into a little bit of what could happen with Vader as well (+7) though thats probably a little to aggressive. Sorry if the + sign was not clear or if it lead to us talking passed each other.

59 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I thought +16 was enough to identify it as 69 pt Soontir and just assumed that was the beginning of a conversation about some of the details. Lead into a little bit of what could happen with Vader as well (+7) though thats probably a little to aggressive. Sorry if the + sign was not clear or if it lead to us talking passed each other.

So to confirm base costs, Soontir is 69 points, Vader is 74? Not sure what the 3-point burners nerf and 4 pt base cost increase means, but maybe you're saying Vader is 71 and Afterburners is 9 points?

Sorry I thrive in the world of explicit statements, commonly understood fundamentals, and no guesswork. I want to get this nailed down before I move forward...

So an example list under these points perhaps looks like this:

Soontir (69)

Subtotal: 69

Vader (71)

• Passive Sensors (3)
• Afterburners (9)

Subtotal: 83

Seventh Sister (43)

• Passive Sensors (3)

Subtotal: 46

Total: 198 (2-point bid)

Is this correct?

I don't really care about debating costs. I can just point to a couple games I played which stuck out in my head. I think I was running 5A against a local running Oli's worlds list. I blocked the bageezus out of him both games, had multiple arcs on the same target, etc...all the stuff you're supposed to do. And it didn't matter. I kept taking more damage that I was dealing. I don't recall dice variance wildly off, one way or another. I was outplaying him and it didn't matter.

That also makes me think of GenCon last year, I think round 4. I played Brian Harper (can be found here https://listfortress.com/tournaments/927 ). 5A against Soontir/GI/bomber x2. Again, I blocked him to **** and gone, to the point where he even commented during the game that I was putting on a blocking clinic (or something to that effect)...and it didn't matter.

I'm not great, I don't think I'm great. And maybe they're bad matchups. Just games like that make me scratch my head because...well...outplaying your opponent should result in wins more often than not, right? At least, I think that's what 2.0 is striving for.

57 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I thought +16 was enough to identify it as 69 pt Soontir and just assumed that was the beginning of a conversation about some of the details. Lead into a little bit of what could happen with Vader as well (+7) though thats probably a little to aggressive. Sorry if the + sign was not clear or if it lead to us talking passed each other.

Variable cost Afterburners? Soontir 69 base?

Vader, Burners- up for that.

Soontir- 69 naked. Uh, no ta!

IMO

Naked Soontir, Burny Vader and that Sister is a decent list, to a point, but should be allowed to bid at least a little. At 200pt, with minimum nonsense, it's fairly wholesome with a ~6pt bid. Without, it's fairly cream crackered, most of the time.

Basically, too much on Soontir.

For me, he's not particularly egregious anyway, he simply allows Imps to cram in enough other great nonsense. He could go up enormously, but I think you'd just erase him and the 'problem' would remain.

Duchess is too cheap. The v1s are all great value and can soak up rises. Whisper and Vader are superb but expensive already, they shine moar due to a cheap and awesome 3rd wheel enabling the word trifle whilst refusing to die.

Im not against more points on Whisper, but neither am I sold on her being particularly amazing value as is.

Certain upgrades can clearly be adjusted in various ways. This current loaded Vader does a lot of the work.

And then, the other worst offenders, Jedi, are armed with built in impeccable BS and the top 3 are too cheap. (Edit. I5s too cheap, Anakin too BS. But this CW Anakin, so I forgive him). There has been advances with the regen cost though, allowing this continued Imperial push.

To me, this achieves a certain balance. The mechanics are another thing, I enjoy it all enough to blithely accept them as mostly fair game.

Addendum: I suspect, but evidence remains necessarily sparse, that taking the Imp trio down a peg may allow a Rise of the Generics, which would possibly improve nothing for me, overall. The middle ground needed help before the last adjustment.

39 minutes ago, Wazat said:

So to confirm base costs, Soontir is 69 points, Vader is 74? Not sure what the 3-point burners nerf and 4 pt base cost increase means, but maybe you're saying Vader is 71 and Afterburners is 9 points?

Sorry I thrive in the world of explicit statements, commonly understood fundamentals, and no guesswork. I want to get this nailed down before I move forward...

So an example list under these points perhaps looks like this:

Soontir (69)

Subtotal: 69

Vader (71)

• Passive Sensors (3)
• Afterburners (9)

Subtotal: 83

Seventh Sister (43)

• Passive Sensors (3)

Subtotal: 46

Total: 198 (2-point bid)

Is this correct?

Building off of this. IMO I wouldn't make Soontir only 2 point less in base cost than Vader. Vader's 3 force, 2 shields, and other strengths are just too good. Treating the list above as a baseline, it might be best to shift half Soontir's points increase to Vader:

Soontir: 61, Vader: 79, Afterburners: 9

Not sure how either cost base would shake out in the wider meta. May make aces more balanced or too weak, perhaps depending on points of view. But this gives us a solid talking point. Thoughts?

46 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I don't really care about debating costs. I can just point to a couple games I played which stuck out in my head. I think I was running 5A against a local running Oli's worlds list. I blocked the bageezus out of him both games, had multiple arcs on the same target, etc...all the stuff you're supposed to do. And it didn't matter. I kept taking more damage that I was dealing. I don't recall dice variance wildly off, one way or another. I was outplaying him and it didn't matter.

That also makes me think of GenCon last year, I think round 4. I played Brian Harper (can be found here https://listfortress.com/tournaments/927 ). 5A against Soontir/GI/bomber x2. Again, I blocked him to **** and gone, to the point where he even commented during the game that I was putting on a blocking clinic (or something to that effect)...and it didn't matter.

I'm not great, I don't think I'm great. And maybe they're bad matchups. Just games like that make me scratch my head because...well...outplaying your opponent should result in wins more often than not, right? At least, I think that's what 2.0 is striving for.

I think that’s more about the fact 5A is an overrated list tbh.

You brought a low offense list vs a high defense list, dedicated 20-40% of your offense to blocking and struggled to deal damage. That sounds like everything was functioning as intended and the aces were an excellent predator on what might otherwise be an unpleasant spam list.

Man I harangue for months for 2-5 points of cost. And this man wants 13 points and 7 points immediately to his nerf bat.
the sheer privilege.

9 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Man I harangue for months for 2-5 points of cost. And this man wants 13 points and 7 points immediately to his nerf bat.
the sheer privilege.

I'm trying to treat Boom's discussion as more of a hypothetical question: "what if aces costed this much? what would the meta look like?". It makes it less offensive and more exploratory. The answer might be "bad end", and it's worth knowing whether that's so.

I sincerely doubt we'll ever see that made manifest, but I'm willing to explore the idea.

My suspicion is it's too many points for Soontir, but maybe not; ideally that's what we're here to discuss. Now that I've finally nailed down the types of points increases we're to consider, we can talk about it. If all aces had this magnitude of points increase, would that destroy aces and shift the meta inexorably to a bad place? Or would things adjust and become an interesting, less ace-dominated ecosystem that still includes healthy aces? I lack the tools to answer these questions alone.

I'm guessing it's possible since a lot of the points increase would be eaten in some lists by their steep bids, dropping the bidding war threshold by a good deal. But other lists would be hurt more and would have to give up an ace and/or some desirable upgrades. So the question is where does that put aces, both wholesale and individually... Is removing the triple-ace threat a net positive, or do other meta monsters just raise to take their place and it's just a change of management? Are any specific factions or ace-countering-builds winners or losers in this?

Those are the questions I'm curious about. Boom says he's stepped away from the forums for a bit, but it's probably worth discussing in his absence for at least half a page or so.

26 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Man I harangue for months for 2-5 points of cost. And this man wants 13 points and 7 points immediately to his nerf bat.
the sheer privilege.

I think you might have missed how long boom has been mad about aces, because it's been going on for a while.