Come find me on literally any other platform to this place.

10 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

[Unkind words]

Perhaps X-Wing isn’t the thing that’s unbalanced here? 😕

2 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Come find me on literally any other platform to this place.

Why would anyone do that?

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Why would anyone do that?

Because I’m great?

4 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Perhaps X-Wing isn’t the thing that’s unbalanced here? 😕

17 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

It’s fair that the sheer numbers of utter idiots in this place triggers me more than anywhere else. I can’t make out the few sane members in the sea of rancid nonsense. Sorry if you one if the good ones and I didn’t adjust for that.

Im going to leave for another year. One week of this place is all I can stand before I want to start committing genocide.

Good. We don't need nazis in xwing.

Re: skew lists

I think the problem is that most of us Poe principle people see trip ace as a skew list, but it happens to perform like a generalist. We're not entirely opposed to aces, and i think ace + minswarm is the "ideal" archetype, but we'd rather not see trip ace the the top tier universally.

1 minute ago, Stay OT Leader said:

[more stuff]

Ok man. We get it. You’re an edgy maverick genius who doesn’t make time for anyone who can’t keep up. So... don’t make time for us. You’re derailing a discussion that a couple of us dullards seemed to be learning something from. Thank you for those posts a page or two ago where you helped out with some useful info. I’m sorry this plastic spaceship discussion seems to be stressing you out so badly; we got it from here.

Heil Hitler!

Obviously.

5 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Because I’m great?

I thought you were leaving.

Just now, Stay OT Leader said:

Heil Hitler!

Obviously.

**** bro all I wanted to commit genocide and perform eugenics bro! Why are you calling me a nazi bro

Just now, Do I need a Username said:

Re: skew lists

I think the problem is that most of us Poe principle people see trip ace as a skew list, but it happens to perform like a generalist. We're not entirely opposed to aces, and i think ace + minswarm is the "ideal" archetype, but we'd rather not see trip ace the the top tier universally.

Interesting assessment! I’m gonna think about that over lunch.

2 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

**** bro all I wanted to commit genocide and perform eugenics bro! Why are you calling me a nazi bro

They had some good ideas, ok?

8 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Re: skew lists

I think the problem is that most of us Poe principle people see trip ace as a skew list, but it happens to perform like a generalist. We're not entirely opposed to aces, and i think ace + minswarm is the "ideal" archetype, but we'd rather not see trip ace the the top tier universally.

But then, what replaces it? Something is going to be the best, we just hope it’s by inches and not by miles. And while there is definitely more work to be done on the archetype, I see absolutely no reason why it should be specifically not allowed to hold that spot as long as it’s there by inches.

8 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

They had some good ideas, ok?

The Internet Provocateur, ladies and gentlemen.

So edgy. So extreme. So dangerous. And it never gets old, and hasn’t since 1998.

1 minute ago, Cpt ObVus said:

The Internet Provocateur, ladies and gentlemen.

So edgy. So extreme. So dangerous. And it never gets old, and hasn’t since 1998.

Wait, is this a thread on Poe the pilot, or Poe the internet law?

because someone should teach SOTL, Stay on the leader, Stay OT Leader

In my opinion there are five real 'problems' with aces.

1: As noted by Do I need a Username, Triple Ace probably shouldn't be a default list. It would be ideal if no list could trivially ensure its entire list operates above most of the initiatives in the game while also still being really efficient. It would be hard to re-jigger points to make this work, but it would be ideal if having 3 high initiative pilots wasn't feasible, or that the average non-generics list gained another ship advantage on them. Most lists should probably have a range of initiatives, rather than all concentrate at the top or bottom, because having a range increases the value of middling initiative pilots.

2: Aces really shouldn't have powerful defense... ever, and generally should be designed to have an extreme weakness to being 'caught out.' You want an Ace who makes a really bad dial move or who's opponent makes a particularly clever one with a few ships to just be blown away, the punishment for failing good prediction should be high to offset the fact your generally operating with perfect information. Bobba is a great example of what an ace SHOULDN'T be (They can essentially overwrite their dial, are monstrously tough, and the dual fire arcs+bombs combined with how the ship manuvers means that it just... is an unfun pain to fight against where even if your doing well on dials you still are mostly not doing much to the ship and just slowly chipping it down).

3: The way player initiative works, and the bid works in terms of scoring, sorta is low key broken jank that both rewards fotressing points in ace list with unusually durable aces, and makes the mirror match not very fun.

4: Aces, and all strong ships, gain disproprotionate value from upgrades, and rather than nerfing the aces that have too much value when optimized, upgrades get nerfed to handle their usage on the aces, shrinking the pool of viable ships down 'towards' the ships that were over-preforming in the first place.

5: Aces often have the flashiest, most powerful, and most generic abilities, because its really easy to print an ace that will see play with a strong passive mod or the ability to reposition and active mod, which is fine (if a little samey), but these abilities are often under-costed and more interesting or situational abilities are often overcosted which pushes you towards an 'ace or swarm' meta.

I would say the thing to take away from Poe isn't really that his points ratios are 'correct,' there is a clear points problem in the game. They probably are, and it isn't like its realistic to say that Vader with the right upgrades doesn't overpreform. But I would say Vader and Poe share a key quality of Aces which makes their ace variants 'fun' as opposed to others (regen jedi, Bobba and Friends) that aren't, which is high stakes for their choices. Even Vader's force doesn't really let him casually ignore getting shot at by even two 3 dice ships or three 2 dice ships, while the least interesting ace lists have this quality of extremely low reward for uptime vs them and a difficulty getting that uptime.

15 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Re: skew lists

I think the problem is that most of us Poe principle people see trip ace as a skew list, but it happens to perform like a generalist. We're not entirely opposed to aces, and i think ace + minswarm is the "ideal" archetype, but we'd rather not see trip ace the the top tier universally.

Okay, respectfully, your personal idea of the “ideal” archetype is fine, we just ought not universalize that. That said, I bet “Ace + Miniswarm” is a popular (as in, people like it, and find it fun to play with and against) archetype, and worth preserving, and even promoting.

Switching gears a little, I feel like an aces-heavy list isn’t necessarily a “skew” list; they *can* be, if the aces in question are highly specialized... but I feel like aces such as Luke and Kylo and Fett are actually very much generalists... kind of well-rounded, just a little better at everything their well-rounded ships do than lesser pilots on the same frames.

What you’re sacrificing with aces is (typically) quantity. If your faction can field four i4’s to do a job, chances are you can find 3 i5-6’s to do the same job (as an example). In certain factions, the faction identity actually relies on having fewer high quality aces, and moving drastically to balance against aces in general might make those factions disappear from competitive play. As a corollary: One of the factions least affected by a radical price increase for aces would be the CIS, and most of the best CIS lists I’ve heard about seem to be pure swarms. Such an adjustment might make them the new top dog by a mile.

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But then, what replaces it? Something is going to be the best, we just hope it’s by inches and not by miles. And while there is definitely more work to be done on the archetype, I see absolutely no reason why it should be specifically not allowed to hold that spot as long as it’s there by inches.

This subtly hits the nail on the head when talking about metas. Too often people throw up their hands and say 'something will be the best' but in reality what you want is the most dominant list to not be so overtuned as to render most of the design unusable. You don't want any Sentinel Vs Sentinel MVC stuff. I have noticed myself that even when 3 aces is REALLY strong, most 3 aces lists don't win in a way where an unoptimized list just... does nothing to them in the same way as a Mando Aces list.

I DO think it is interesting to imagine a game where it is sincerely really hard to have more than 2 aces, and do think that game is 'better' because your strategy in listbuilding no longer can be 'have all your ships act with perfect information, some of your ships you will have that and some will almost certainly have no information' and it also means that no matter what your investment into initiative 3 or 4 matters (Your either beating the entire swarm's initiative and get to be an Ace for a day, or your losing to the aces but beating the ace's 'backup') but Aces as an archetype is good for the game in the end because it is extremely appealing on both a mechanical level and thematic one without generally being in a state where making progress vs them is miserable (far from it, Aces lists have the most vicerally positive feedback for a good turn for their opponents in all of X-wing!), and a lot of the angst about aces is more that most of the aces lists of this current meta don't have these fun 'by inches' elements that keep you in the game when playing vs them.

I will say archetype diversity is shockingly low in X-wing: almost every list is essentially some variant of tons of stats or tons of stats and initiative rather than any 'complicated' ability, with synergy, combo, control, ect not really existing in the game. It feels like playing MTG where the only color is green, which doesn't really do it for me, but this is more because of the whole 'upgrades are balanced around being mostly just ok in their best case scenario' and 'mid grade initiatives will be factored into the cost of ability focused pilots which means your paying for something that won't matter in 90% of matchups' designs, rather than aces or swarms themselves.

9 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

In my opinion there are five real 'problems' with aces.

1: As noted by Do I need a Username, Triple Ace probably shouldn't be a default list. It would be ideal if no list could trivially ensure its entire list operates above most of the initiatives in the game while also still being really efficient. It would be hard to re-jigger points to make this work, but it would be ideal if having 3 high initiative pilots wasn't feasible, or that the average non-generics list gained another ship advantage on them. Most lists should probably have a range of initiatives, rather than all concentrate at the top or bottom, because having a range increases the value of middling initiative pilots.

2: Aces really shouldn't have powerful defense... ever, and generally should be designed to have an extreme weakness to being 'caught out.' You want an Ace who makes a really bad dial move or who's opponent makes a particularly clever one with a few ships to just be blown away, the punishment for failing good prediction should be high to offset the fact your generally operating with perfect information. Bobba is a great example of what an ace SHOULDN'T be (They can essentially overwrite their dial, are monstrously tough, and the dual fire arcs+bombs combined with how the ship manuvers means that it just... is an unfun pain to fight against where even if your doing well on dials you still are mostly not doing much to the ship and just slowly chipping it down).

3: The way player initiative works, and the bid works in terms of scoring, sorta is low key broken jank that both rewards fotressing points in ace list with unusually durable aces, and makes the mirror match not very fun.

4: Aces, and all strong ships, gain disproprotionate value from upgrades, and rather than nerfing the aces that have too much value when optimized, upgrades get nerfed to handle their usage on the aces, shrinking the pool of viable ships down 'towards' the ships that were over-preforming in the first place.

5: Aces often have the flashiest, most powerful, and most generic abilities, because its really easy to print an ace that will see play with a strong passive mod or the ability to reposition and active mod, which is fine (if a little samey), but these abilities are often under-costed and more interesting or situational abilities are often overcosted which pushes you towards an 'ace or swarm' meta.

I would say the thing to take away from Poe isn't really that his points ratios are 'correct,' there is a clear points problem in the game. They probably are, and it isn't like its realistic to say that Vader with the right upgrades doesn't overpreform. But I would say Vader and Poe share a key quality of Aces which makes their ace variants 'fun' as opposed to others (regen jedi, Bobba and Friends) that aren't, which is high stakes for their choices. Even Vader's force doesn't really let him casually ignore getting shot at by even two 3 dice ships or three 2 dice ships, while the least interesting ace lists have this quality of extremely low reward for uptime vs them and a difficulty getting that uptime.

I’m not saying I disagree with all of this, but I don’t know that I agree with all of it either.

I have really enjoyed a couple of lists that probably qualify as Triple Aces... Kylo, Quickdraw, Vonreg, for example... and while I can see the power in them, I really just don’t know that I find them annoying or unbeatable. Granted, my typical opponents aren’t world class, nor am I, but it seems like these ace-heavy lists play very well when the players are of equal skill levels. Perhaps they feel more oppressive when the disparity in player skill is greater; I can imagine that being the case. But as people keep saying, *something* has to be on top, and (in my opinion) I’d rather have it be a list that thrives on player skill and flashy maneuvering, I guess.

In other parts of your post, you refer to things that you personally don’t think should be (Boba Fett) and things you personally don’t find fun (like regenerating Jedi). Once again, your position is fine, but let’s not universalize it. If you want to make individual arguments that “Boba Fett needs a price hike,” or “something oughtta be done about those space wizards,” I’m listening!

But specificity is key. And I may not have the deeeep knowledge necessary yet to hang in the conversation and discuss whether Fel ought to be 55 or 57 points base, but I’m pretty sure he shouldn’t cost 70! 🙂

14 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

I will say archetype diversity is shockingly low in X-wing: almost every list is essentially some variant of tons of stats or tons of stats and initiative rather than any 'complicated' ability, with synergy....

Control is my pet peev on this subject, and it's been hit and miss in X-Wing even since back in 1e.

Control tends to ride a very thin line of NPE when considering the entire game is about agency in the midst of tense dogfighting situations and choices. I really don't know how better to support that archetype aside from what they're already doing with interesting mid-level pilot abilities.

On 5/15/2020 at 1:40 PM, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m not saying I disagree with all of this, but I don’t know that I agree with all of it either.

I have really enjoyed a couple of lists that probably qualify as Triple Aces... Kylo, Quickdraw, Vonreg, for example... and while I can see the power in them, I really just don’t know that I find them annoying or unbeatable. Granted, my typical opponents aren’t world class, nor am I, but it seems like these ace-heavy lists play very well when the players are of equal skill levels. Perhaps they feel more oppressive when the disparity in player skill is greater; I can imagine that being the case. But as people keep saying, *something* has to be on top, and (in my opinion) I’d rather have it be a list that thrives on player skill and flashy maneuvering, I guess.

In other parts of your post, you refer to things that you personally don’t think should be (Boba Fett) and things you personally don’t find fun (like regenerating Jedi). Once again, your position is fine, but let’s not universalize it. If you want to make individual arguments that “Boba Fett needs a price hike,” or “something oughtta be done about those space wizards,” I’m listening!

But specificity is key. And I may not have the deeeep knowledge necessary yet to hang in the conversation and discuss whether Fel ought to be 55 or 57 points base, but I’m pretty sure he shouldn’t cost 70! 🙂

I too, find Kylo, Vonreg and Quickdraw fun. I think those are 'good' old honest aces: Terrifying, but when you have a good turn against them you feel it in your body, in your soul.

Regen Jedi were strong enough to get the entire class of regen droids nerfed for everyone. I think that alone speaks to their power. The entire archetype was based around reverting progress and making progress slow. So even ignoring the effect it has on a player flying a middling list at a local scene it was good enough to require a change at the organized play level.

Bobba is/was so strong that my local X-wing scene started dying long before everything went on lockdown. Mandos has been in the top 3 lists since the current rotation of Hyperspace, and while some of that is due to less competition, I have seen multiple players play vs him and see the decision to quit in their faces as they realized even after setting up a good turn vs the list he just changes his dial to the correct one he should have, blasts down your ship, and then on the return fire from 3 ships casually takes 1 health of damage. I get that he isn't 'broken' in the tournament scene, but he is so absurdly oppressive on a casual level I think he should just be quietly 'Dashed' and replaced with a rebalanced Jango with the same ability on charges or something. There is no better way to make someone think X-wing as a game sucks (and it doesn't!) than for them to get a bunch of arcs on your enemy who clearly 'screwed up' and they say 'no I didn't,' and change directions and you fire on them with most of your list and it does nothing, it at the very least FEELS like a cheat code.

18 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

This subtly hits the nail on the head when talking about metas. Too often people throw up their hands and say 'something will be the best' but in reality what you want is the most dominant list to not be so overtuned as to render most of the design unusable. You don't want any Sentinel Vs Sentinel MVC stuff. I have noticed myself that even when 3 aces is REALLY strong, most 3 aces lists don't win in a way where an unoptimized list just... does nothing to them in the same way as a Mando Aces list.

Yes. YES YES YES. This is excellent. There will be a small number of “best” lists. They will often have preferred prey, which they will devour effortlessly. The key is to ensure that they still have to guard against a significant number of other lists... as you put it, not rendering most of the design unusable.

I guess my question is: what’s dominating right now that feels so invincible? When you make lists, what makes you throw out most of them, because “it’ll never beat X?” And more importantly: do we have tournament data to back that up, or does this circle back to maybe needing more practice with or against X, or perhaps just accepting that minor points tweaks will help the meta rotate at a measured rate over time?

15 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

This subtly hits the nail on the head when talking about metas. Too often people throw up their hands and say 'something will be the best' but in reality what you want is the most dominant list to not be so overtuned as to render most of the design unusable. You don't want any Sentinel Vs Sentinel MVC stuff. I have noticed myself that even when 3 aces is REALLY strong, most 3 aces lists don't win in a way where an unoptimized list just... does nothing to them in the same way as a Mando Aces list.

I DO think it is interesting to imagine a game where it is sincerely really hard to have more than 2 aces, and do think that game is 'better' because your strategy in listbuilding no longer can be 'have all your ships act with perfect information, some of your ships you will have that and some will almost certainly have no information' and it also means that no matter what your investment into initiative 3 or 4 matters (Your either beating the entire swarm's initiative and get to be an Ace for a day, or your losing to the aces but beating the ace's 'backup') but Aces as an archetype is good for the game in the end because it is extremely appealing on both a mechanical level and thematic one without generally being in a state where making progress vs them is miserable (far from it, Aces lists have the most vicerally positive feedback for a good turn for their opponents in all of X-wing!), and a lot of the angst about aces is more that most of the aces lists of this current meta don't have these fun 'by inches' elements that keep you in the game when playing vs them.

I will say archetype diversity is shockingly low in X-wing: almost every list is essentially some variant of tons of stats or tons of stats and initiative rather than any 'complicated' ability, with synergy, combo, control, ect not really existing in the game. It feels like playing MTG where the only color is green, which doesn't really do it for me, but this is more because of the whole 'upgrades are balanced around being mostly just ok in their best case scenario' and 'mid grade initiatives will be factored into the cost of ability focused pilots which means your paying for something that won't matter in 90% of matchups' designs, rather than aces or swarms themselves.

Some interesting points, but I still don’t really see a case against the existence Triple Ace lists. There are a fair number of “mono” style lists, including Swarms, varieties of beef, and alpha strike. I must admit, I don’t see the way lists are built in X-Wing as “only green” in MTG terms. Different archetypes (like aces, swarms, alpha strike) are different “colors“ to me, and the elements you say aren’t there are just other colors or color combos that aren’t in style. I do think some should be brought back in, (through control is always a problematic thing to balance) but I have yet to see why that means other archetypes should face the same fate of “obscurity”.

I understand your interest in theorizing and your problem with the archetype, but I still don’t see why that archetype must not be allowed in the top tier.