I'm playing through the LotR Saga in campaign mode, and drew the burden card "Shadow of Fear" which reads:

Quote

When Revealed : Treat the printed text box of each character in play as blank (except for Traits ) until the end of the round.

I had Gandalf* in play at the time. So my question is, do I get to keep Gandalf for an extra turn?

* I'm actually using OHaUH Gandalf, so it's really only saving me raising my threat by an extra two to keep him. But I'll take what I can get!

14 minutes ago, steve83 said:

I'm playing through the LotR Saga in campaign mode, and drew the burden card "Shadow of Fear" which reads:

I had Gandalf* in play at the time. So my question is, do I get to keep Gandalf for an extra turn?

* I'm actually using OHaUH Gandalf, so it's really only saving me raising my threat by an extra two to keep him. But I'll take what I can get!

Basically yes. Even more so with OHaUH Gandalf since its Forced effect come into play at the end of the refresh phase which is before the end of the round.

Thanks.

If I sneak attack an ally after this burden is revealed, does it apply only to cards already in play, or also any newly played cards?

I know if I sneak attack Gandalf I'll still have to return him to my hand at the end of the phase* (since the text controlling that is on the event card), but do I get his abilities?

(*However, I think should be able to play tactics Elfhelm for 1 cost and keep him permanently, if the burden also applies to cards played after it is revealed. As he's not in play, I can still activate his action from my hand to put him into play.)

I think it only applies to cards in play, so I don't think it would work with Tactics Elfhelm. Shadow of Fear's text reads: " When Revealed : Treat the printed text box of each character in play as blank (except for Traits ) until the end of the round".

So I don't think any characters that enter play after it is revealed would be affected by it.

I have a question about Core Gandalf.

If you had Core Gandalf in play and revealed Shadow of Fear would you be able to keep him in play?

Does the player get to choose what order the end of round effects trigger?

14 minutes ago, Adaepholn said:

I think it only applies to cards in play, so I don't think it would work with Tactics Elfhelm.

I interpreted "in play" as meaning just any ally in play, rather than "currently in play". So that once you play Elfhelm he is now "in play", and therefore the burden also affects him. But I could well be wrong.

18 minutes ago, Adaepholn said:

If you had Core Gandalf in play and revealed Shadow of Fear would you be able to keep him in play?

Does the player get to choose what order the end of round effects trigger?

I was also wondering this, which was partly what prompted the OP, even though I was using OHaUH Gandalf at the time. (Should also apply to Elrond and Galadriel allies.)

AFAIK, the player gets to choose the order. But I could be wrong. I shall go and have a look to see if I can find out...

(Incidentally, I lost the game two turns after the above dilemma came up. I suddenly drew a slew of bad encounter cards, which forced two great-cave trolls and some orcs to engage me at once and wipe me out. I might throw some new cards into my deck to exploit this loophole, for the next play.)

48 minutes ago, steve83 said:

Thanks.

If I sneak attack an ally after this burden is revealed, does it apply only to cards already in play, or also any newly played cards?

I know if I sneak attack Gandalf I'll still have to return him to my hand at the end of the phase* (since the text controlling that is on the event card), but do I get his abilities?

I would say it applies only to character in play at the moment the When Revealed effect is resolved.

33 minutes ago, Adaepholn said:

I have a question about Core Gandalf.

If you had Core Gandalf in play and revealed Shadow of Fear would you be able to keep him in play?

Does the player get to choose what order the end of round effects trigger?

If multiple effects of the same kind (Action, Response, Forced) has the same timing (like Sneak Attack Beorn and trigger its own effect) the player choose the order of resolution (so in the example before I can choose if I shuffle Beorn in the deck or if I took it back in hand).

8 minutes ago, steve83 said:

Should also apply to Elrond and Galadriel allies

Indeed it does (Saruman too)

3 minutes ago, Alonewolf87 said:

If multiple effects of the same kind (Action, Response, Forced) has the same timing (like Sneak Attack Beorn and trigger its own effect) the player choose the order of resolution (so in the example before I can choose if I shuffle Beorn in the deck or if I took it back in hand).

Indeed it does (Saruman too)

While this is true, in the case of this treachery you aren't really deciding the order of the end of round effects -- you can't choose to handle Gandalf's end-of-round effect first while it is blanked, because while it is blanked it doesn't exist at all! The question really is if End of Round effects that don't exist will pop back into play and have to be resolved after the end-of-round effect from the treachery expires. Until end of round is a passive effect, but is the "until" inclusive of end-of-round or exclusive of end-of-round (both allowed by the English language). I think interpreting end-of-round and end-of-phase effects as *inclusive* makes much more sense and presents less rules weirdness, but if memory serves we've seen Caleb embrace the exclusive-until weirdness with end-of-phase happenings, causing an action window in an end-of-phase test make "until end of phase" event worthless!

I think in this case it is exclusive. I.e. "until the end of the round" means "until you have play your last action in the refresh phase." And thus before the resource phase begins, the round has ended, the effect is gone, and then gandalf, elrond, galadriel and saruman leave play.

11 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

While this is true, in the case of this treachery you aren't really deciding the order of the end of round effects -- you can't choose to handle Gandalf's end-of-round effect first while it is blanked, because while it is blanked it doesn't exist at all!

Mmmhh I guess you are right, I didn't see it that way. My bad.

12 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

I think interpreting end-of-round and end-of-phase effects as *inclusive* makes much more sense and presents less rules weirdness, but if memory serves we've seen Caleb embrace the exclusive-until weirdness with end-of-phase happenings, causing an action window in an end-of-phase test make "until end of phase" event worthless!

Now that you mention it I guess I also remember something like this.

I believe I have found a ruling from Caleb. First I found this thread , which contains a link to this thread (in French, which I can't read), which contains this quote (in English) from Caleb:

Quote

The Nine are Abroad reads "until the end of the round" at which time it's effect expires. At that time Gandalf's effect will require him to be discarded.

The Nine are Abroad starts:

"When Revealed: Treat the text box of each character in play as blank (except for Traits) until the end of the round. [...]"

So it's basically the same thing and Gandalf is discarded.

Life would be so much simpler if i) effects like Gandalf's formally trigger before the expiry of "until the end of the round" effects and ii) "until the end of the round" effects have a fixed unambiguous moment in each turn where they expire.

I think I've found an answer to my question about tactics Elfhelm (and also sneak attacking allies after this burden had been revealed). From the FAQ:

Quote

(1.55) Lasting Effects

There are two classes of lasting effects in the game: those created by player cards and those created by encounter cards. Each class is handled differently as follows:

[...]

A lasting effect created by an encounter card ability, is recalculated if the game state changes.

And it goes on to cite an example of a treachery that blanks the text box of any ally with damage placed on it, an effect which lasts until the end of the combat phase (rather than the round, but much the same effect here). If an ally takes damage, the text box is blanked, if it is completely healed, then it unblanks.

So, as I understand this: Any sneak attacked ally will have its text box blanked by the burden discussed in the OP, since it becomes "in play" (the game state has changed, and the effect is recalculated), and the same applies to Elfhelm, who then avoids being discarded at the end of the phase he was played and is not discarded in the same way Core Gandalf would be (since Elfhelm would ordinarily be discarded at the end of the phase rather then the end of the round).

Thanks, that example is good. I don't think I understood it the first time I read it as it didn't seem very intuitive to me, but it makes some more sense to me now.

I'll have to remember for this the next time I play through the Saga scenarios.

Just to tidy up this thread for anyone who might find this in the future: unlike Core Gandalf, OHaUH Gandalf (as Alonewolf87 correctly says above) would, like Elfhelm, remain in play (without having to increase your threat by 2, until the next turn), as his response activates at the "end of the refresh phase", rather than the end of the round.

I hadn't really thought about this subtle difference between these two versions of Gandalf until now, as I always just discarded him (or paid the price) at the end of the round. The "end of the round" and "end of the refresh phase" under most circumstances being essentially the same thing (even if technically they are not).

As a reminder, the RR timing framework labels the end of the refresh phase "7.5", and the end of the round "0.1" (with the latter of course following the former).

When an encounter-card lasting effect is "until the end of the round", I think of it using the standard mathematical notation for a half-open interval:

[initiation point, 0.1)

That is, the effect starts at the time of initiation and continues to affect the game until, but not including, 0.1.

Thus, at 0.1, Shadow of Fear is no longer active, so Core Gandalf's constant effect is free to (and must) trigger, as per the French forum ruling.

But at 7.5—squarely within the aforementioned interval—Shadow of Fear is active, so OHaUH Gandalf's Forced effect does not trigger.

(I realize I'm just restating what was already hashed out; just giving my own mental scaffolding for how it works.)